PS3 SACD audio vs. DVD DTS audio

[dannyjl]

I wonder if anyone could compare these two audio formats as this is all new to me. I'm expecting my first SACD/ DVD disks today - a Genesis box set containing 6 albums worth of music. I'll be enjoying these using my dvd player to get the DTS audio. Is there any difference between the 5.1 sound from the two formats (SACD and DTS 5.1)? Do I need to rush out and get a SACD player, like the PS3 right now? Thanks for any enlightenment.

[WriteSimply]

Dolby Digital or DTS DVDs typically has a sampling rate of 20-/24-bit (depending on the source) at 48kHz.

SACD has a sampling rate of 1-bit at 2.8224Mhz (native). So far, using the PS3, you're getting 176.4kHz. The audio is lossless.

So when you're comparing the CD, SACD (the SACD disc is hybrid multichannel) and the DVD, just use one track that you're most familiar with then start with the CD audio first, then the DVD then SACD. Odds are you'll find the SACD version illuminating.


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[dannyjl]

Thanks for the comparison. I don't have a SACD player yet but from what you describe, looks like I'll have to get that PS3 sooner than planned to enjoy the utmost in sound. I'll be using a Yamaha AV amp for this setup and I'll be adding 3 more speakers to my current 2 speaker system - is there anything else I should know? For example, when I do get the PS3, will I still be able to get superior sound with an older (non HDMI) 5.1 channel amp when playing the SACD?

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by dannyjl

For example, when I do get the PS3, will I still be able to get superior sound with an older (non HDMI) 5.1 channel amp when playing the SACD?

You need a HDMI receiver capable of accepting 5.1/7.1 PCM audio and 1080i/p video to get the benefits of SACD playback capability.

Make sure you get a receiver that can accept PCM audio at up to 192kHz or higher if you can afford it.


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[dannyjl]

Thanks again for the info - man, this is going to get expensive!

[HDJK]

Well, altough true that's only half the story. To get full advantage of SACD you would need a standalone SACD player that decodes the DSD stream (the actual format of SACD) to analog, otherwise you'll convert it to PCM first and then to analog on the receiver. As I have my Denon analog outs connected directly to my monitor controller and the active monitors I cannot comment on the quality compared to a PS3 conversion to PCM sent to the receiver (of course it also depends on the DA converters of the receiver). It might be negligible. Maybe in a future update the PS3 might be able to send the DSD stream over HDMI, who knows.
Also do some research of what you get on SACD. There is (to my knowledge) no software yet that allows you to record DSD in a multitrack session and edit it with plugins (reverb, eq etc.). So basically most new pop recordings (honestly I don't even know how many there are) will be tracked in PCM and then mastered to SACD. If they use analog summing (taking the digital mix to an analog box to add some analog magic) you can get the advantage of DSD to capture the increased sound quality, otherwise you will just get a 'superior' capture of something that is supposedly inferior, so no real advantage. Direct cut recordings and older analog recordings that get remastered in DSD do sound georgous though.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by HDJK

There is (to my knowledge) no software yet that allows you to record DSD in a multitrack session and edit it with plugins (reverb, eq etc.). So basically most new pop recordings (honestly I don't even know how many there are) will be tracked in PCM and then mastered to SACD.

Actually, Sony and a couple of other companies make DSD multitrack workstations. Sony's, the Sonoma, uses Ed Meitner ADC/DAC DSD converters. They are all the way up to 32 tracks at this point. There are actually a couple of Pop/Rock SACDs available that were completely recorded and mixed in DSD. Three that come to mind are John Hiatt - Master of Disaster, Jorma Kaukonen - Blue Country Heart, and Alison Krauss & Union Station - Live.

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

Actually, Sony and a couple of other companies make DSD multitrack workstations. Sony's, the Sonoma, uses Ed Meitner ADC/DAC DSD converters. They are all the way up to 32 tracks at this point. There are actually a couple of Pop/Rock SACDs available that were completely recorded and mixed in DSD. Three that come to mind are John Hiatt - Master of Disaster, Jorma Kaukonen - Blue Country Heart, and Alison Krauss & Union Station - Live.

Wow, I didn't know that. So those workstations are all equipt with plugins for DSD or do they have to use outboard gear?

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by HDJK

Wow, I didn't know that. So those workstations are all equipt with plugins for DSD or do they have to use outboard gear?

Plug-ins.

[HDJK]

I think I have to do some Google-ing

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by HDJK

I think I have to do some Google-ing

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16240030

[Spankey]

I'm expecting my first SACD/ DVD disks today - a Genesis box set containing 6 albums worth of music.

Just so you know, SACD is not on the DVD. The box set has two different discs for each album. An SACD with CD layer, that you can play in a standard CD player, but you will only hear the CD quality audio. If you get an SACD player with multichannel audio outs, you can hear the surround tracks in high quality DSD audio from the same CD.

The DVD tracks contain the extra features. Music videos, interviews, concert footage, etc. These will contain DTS tracks. So for now, to listen to the albums themselves, you will be getting CD audio. The remasters should sound rather good. I ordered mine from Japan since Warner does not support SACD in the US and the DVD is in PAL except from Japan.

Can't wait to see Genesis again in September.

[GoldenRedux]

Originally Posted by sltmag

So for now, to listen to the albums themselves, you will be getting CD audio.

Not exactly true. The DVDs will contain the 5.1 mixes of the albums in dts 96/24, in addition to the bonus video materials. The hybrid SACDs will contain stereo remixes of the albums on the CD and SACD layers and 5.1 mixes on the SACD layers.

The remasters should sound rather good. I ordered mine from Japan since Warner does not support SACD in the US and the DVD is in PAL except from Japan.

I ordered the box from Amazon UK. My Denon DVD-2200 does PAL to NTSC conversion, though not very well, and is hacked to be region free. What I usually end up doing with PAL discs is playing them back from my Mac via DVI into my television which gives me a much better picture than the Denon anyway. So, basically, the whole PAL/Region code thing is no problem for me, and my main concern with this set is the audio anyway.

[Spankey]

Good to know about the DVD's. Especially those who want to experience the surround mix without SACD.

The NTSC discs can also be had from Elusive Disc.

[HDJK]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16240030

Sweet I'll be picking up a copy!

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by HDJK

Well, altough true that's only half the story. To get full advantage of SACD you would need a standalone SACD player that decodes the DSD stream (the actual format of SACD) to analog, otherwise you'll convert it to PCM first and then to analog on the receiver.

The PS3 uses 3 SPEs to convert from DST to DSD and another 2 SPEs to convert from DSD to 176.4kHz PCM.

You can ONLY get 5.1 SACD through HDMI so there is no analog audio going into the receiver. It stays digital until it gets out of the receiver.


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[dannyjl]

So, even with a Coaxial cable from the PS3 to the digital input on my amp I won't get 5.1 SACD? What kind of sound can I expect with a non HDMI receiver?

The Genesis box did come in today - I'm in Japan so ordered it through tower for the incredible price of ¥12,600 or $106. It's a beautiful set in every aspect. I do hope this is the last time I have to buy these Genesis didks! THis sets a record for me as these are the 5th incarnation I have purchased - original vinyl album, Japanese vinyl, CD, Definitive Remaster CD and finally these SACD disks. Not many groups I'd do this for but as it is the 30th anniversary of "Wind and Wuthering", my all time #1 disk, I thought I'd do something special. I hope the boys make it back to Japan - I last saw them 20 yrs. ago at the Budokan in Tokyo.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by dannyjl

So, even with a Coaxial cable from the PS3 to the digital input on my amp I won't get 5.1 SACD? What kind of sound can I expect with a non HDMI receiver?

You can get standard CD stereo sound from the CD layer and DTS 5.1/DD 5.1 on the DVD using optical or coaxial.

SACD stereo or multichannel is available only as 2.0/5.1 analog output or HDMI output.


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[Casey]

you can get a dvd player with the sacd option for pretty cheap and one that has analog outs. thats what i use.. over my ps3 since the analog outs are better anyway

[Ashplisken]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but I am not sure exactly what you guys are talking about... Is this a disc that has DVD-Audio on one side and SACD (and CD) on the other? If so, that's pretty awesome, I've been pretty dissapointed that DVD-Audio hasn't been taking off because the sound quality is just amazing.