When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[Anthony P]

This false notion that ethernet adds considerably to the cost of the player should be laid to rest. Insiders have already confirmed that it's a nominal cost to add 2.0 compliance to a 1.1 profile player. Production volume would make the matter even less significant.

I did not say it adds considerably to the cost. I said it adds to the cost, so please don't put words in my mouth. I asked why should I be forced to pay more if a manufacturer would be willing to build a cheaper player with the other features I want but that is not 2.

[DaViD Boulet]

I asked why should I be forced to pay more if a manufacturer would be willing to build a cheaper player with the other features I want but that is not 2.

Because a few dollars more is worth the price to guarantee that all players everywhere can access every BD-spec feature on every title... especially given that most consumers who will be buying BD hardware in the coming holiday season won't have a clue that there are even any profile issues with which they need to be concerned (until after they get their player home and then discover it can't access the BD-live content advertised on their Fox and Disney discs).

[Anthony P]

How many times does the distintion need to be made between BD players differentiating themselves by extra features versus all BD players at MINIMUM providing full-spec performance based on the established BD specification.

no one disagrees but the BDA has already determined the min spec and it is 1.1 and that is why every new model must meet it. The issue is that you want that min spec to change and your excuse is that people will be confused, which is why the TV example is apropos. The important thing is that you cannot have a min spec outside of the control of the player, let’s go with an insane example where the internet radically changes and all these players (and 2.0 spec) is incompatible with it.

Every BD player should provide 1.1 profile "PIP" and 2.0 BD-live so that any consumer can access those features at any time if/when they figure it out and want to hook up the cable

but what if the BDA specs out a profile 3 player which is 3D? will all new players need to be p3? how about 4 with Scentamatic, will the BDA need to make that the min? What if they add profile 5 with supermovement?…

This notion that consumers are pre-educated about these matters before they buy a BD player is nonsense. Lots of BD consumers are going to be PISSED as hell when they discover that the BD player they paid $400 to own won't be able to access BD-live features on the FOX BDs headed our way.

what about the guy that bought a player with Ethernet when all he has is wireless (or vice versa) is he any better off? What if he does not have a PC and so no internet, is he less likely not to be Poed (let’s face it he is the type of consumer that blames other for his own bad decisions and thinks he has an absolute right on all content that might be available)?
What if the Fox BD has a 3D Scentamatic supermovement version of the movie?

[DaViD Boulet]

BD Live is being touted as a feature of Blu-ray (because it is) and is advertised on Disney's promotional BD tour demo disc without any mention that it's not a supported feature by any existing hardware. These features will be advertised in big bold letters on disc packaging and in comercials and software vendors shouldn't be the ones who now get stuck with angry customer phone calls and having to deal with educating consumers that their players won't even access the very features that they're trying to advertise to sell their discs.

Optional future add-on features would be fine to leave as optional. What we had going into the Blu-ray spec 2 years ago should be standard on all hardware today.

[Anthony P]

Because a few dollars more is worth the price to guarantee that all players everywhere can access every BD-spec feature on every title...

can you tell me how that can happen when some of my Fox (and Disney and Sony and Warner) titles say they offer D-Box. On the other hand how does an Ethernet port on my player guarantee that I can access 2.0 content when there is no Ethernet cable going anywhere near my HT.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

BD Live is being touted as a feature of Blu-ray (because it is) and is advertised on Disney's promotional BD tour demo disc without any mention that it's not a supported feature by any existing hardware. These features will be advertised in big bold letters on disc packaging and in comercials and software vendors shouldn't be the ones who now get stuck with angry customer phone calls and having to deal with educating consumers that their players won't even access the very features that they're trying to advertise to sell their discs.

Optional future add-on features would be fine to leave as optional. What we had going into the Blu-ray spec 2 years ago should be standard on all hardware today.

Well if Disney is promoting it, they should share in the education - so ya, a software vendor is going to be on the hook for "angry customers" (even though you still completely disregard the fact that they can get to this via a computer).

[Anthony P]

BD Live is being touted as a feature of Blu-ray

so was d-box, and so will 3D, scentamatic or supermovement or anything else eventualy added.

These features will be advertised in big bold letters on disc packaging and in comercials and software vendors shouldn't be the ones who now get stuck with angry customer phone calls and having to deal with educating consumers that their players won't even access the very features that they're trying to advertise to sell their discs.

why and how? what I mean is that a few titles show D-box on the back, PiP in the back and internet features in the back. Why will internet be in the front and bold all of a sudden? These are extra features like any other and like they do with PiP now there might be a disclaimer saying those features need the appropriate player. Let's face it, even if the BDA decided tomorrow no <2.0 can be sold (which they can't) there are still a few of them out there so the "needs a 2.0 player" disclaimer will still need to be there.

[DaViD Boulet]

so was d-box, and so will 3D, scentamatic or supermovement or anything else eventualy added.

It should need to further explaination as to how BD live and PIP are both part of the instrinsic BD-spec and have been since inception (having their implimentation standards finalized for months at this point), and how this fundamentally differes from the other examples you suggest.

[Anthony P]

It should need to further explaination as to how BD live and PIP are both part of the instrinsic BD-spec and have been since inception (having their implimentation standards finalized for months at this point), and how this fundamentally differes from the other examples you suggest.

it is just your BS explanation for making PiP and live more important (because you value them). Your explanation was about access to advertised features and I pointed out D-box is on the box of some movies and that D-Box was also a feature of many BD titles long before PiP or live where added. And since it has been on BDs from the beginning, it has obviously been part of the specs from the beginning.


Now obviously 3D has not (or any other future additions) but if something is added this year how will it be any different for a consumer next year? he might not need to be educated enough to know the difference between 1, 1.1 and 2.0 because the min (in your world) will be 2.0 but they will need to look and know the difference between a 2.0 and a 3.0 player and he can just as easily buy a 2.0 player and a 3.0 title and be POed because he wants to access the 3.0 features are you trying to make us believe the type of person that would be angry at BD because he might have bought a 1.1 player when he wants to access 2.0 features will not be angry because he bough a 1.1 player instead of 3.0 because the BDA added that spec a bit later (but before he bought a machine.

[DaViD Boulet]

it is just your BS explanation for making PiP and live more important (because you value them).

No.

It's because THEY ARE PART OF THE BD SPEC AND HAVE BEEN FROM THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMAT.


Personally, I place exponentially greater value on 3-D playback using dual 24p 1080 streams. However, that should be optional in hardware.

3-D playback requires much MUCH more than just a BD player. You'd need a special TV and you'd need glasses or dual-projectors. It can be optional because it requires an investment of greater infrastructure for the user.

However, just about every American consumer has internet... and most have wireless wifi. BD-Live should be standard on all BD hardware (if I had my say, there would be a madatory port on every player that would allow a wireless plug-in as an optional add-on).

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

However, just about every American consumer has internet... and most have wireless wifi.

Therefore they have access to the 2.0 content through their PCs....

[Anthony P]

It's because THEY ARE PART OF THE BD SPEC AND HAVE BEEN FROM THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMAT.

But so are so many other features, except they don't have a fancy group name. I already pointed out that D-BOX has been there from day 1 but there are no players that will accept it. I just watched ID4 last night and right there in big letters as a feature it said D-Box. And if you click it said if your D-Box controller has a BD drive then just use the disk but if not then DL it from the internet to your controller.

You are just so focused (to put it kindly) on those two features that you miss the forest for the trees

1) There are many features that are part of the spec from the beginning but not all or many players can handle them .
2) There will (hopefully) always be newer and better features that will be added as optional
3) It is insane to make new features (features that where not part of previous players – no matter when added to spec) mandatory
4) It is insane to make a feature that is 100% on external factors (not part of the player) mandatory.
5) It is insane to think making features that have external factors mandatory will add anything or make it less confusing.

If I want to go on the internet I can use my PC, if I thought it added value to be on the net instead of enjoying the actual movie I would make sure that I got a BD player with that feature, the same way that if I want D-BOX I would look at that feature and if (one day there is BD 3D) I would look for that feature or if I want a BD PVR I would look at that feature.

[scott1256ca]

The BD-Live features were supposed to be mandatory sometime this year. I think that has been relaxed.

I think David's concern doesn't revolve around features he personally wants or even features he thinks enthusiasts might want. I think his concern is that he wants BD to become widely accepted, and one way to derail that is to advertise on the cover, features that a movie includes, but where it is not readily apparent that the feature will be supported by all players.

So, Bob walks into a store, sees the new Sleeping Beauty BD, has a look at the cover and sees that during the movie, his daughter can pause, bring up a menu, and quickly go to the web to read about apples, or sleep apnia, or famous wicked step-mothers. All of which would be context sensitive to the movie, and maybe to the scene in the movie, which makes it more difficult to just run to your PC and browse there.

Anyway, so Bob then goes and buys a player, gets it home and finds out the player isn't capable of that interactivity, gets PO'd goes to work and tells everyone what a lousy experience he had with BD. So maybe they get turned off as well.

Maybe that happens and maybe not. I know BD Live requires more memory and the ethernet port, not sure about anything else. The memory could be provided by a usb stick.

Still, when Bob thinks about these features, he should realize that he'll need internet access, and when he thinks about that, he should think about how he gets it to the player, then start checking the box of the player before he buys, and maybe goes and asks questions. Most people aren't likely to have an ethernet connection next to the TV. So hopefully Bob will check to find out what he needs before he buys.

Unless there are wireless options to the players, I don't know how big a deal the ethernet connection will be. I've got a ps3 with wifi, so I'm covered, but unless that becomes the norm, I'll bet the vast majority of owners will not do any interactive stuff, except maybe running a cable to the thing long enough to do a firmware upgrade.

Time will tell, I guess.

[PA_Kid]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

However, just about every American consumer has internet... and most have wireless wifi. BD-Live should be standard on all BD hardware (if I had my say, there would be a madatory port on every player that would allow a wireless plug-in as an optional add-on).

Really? 90%+ of americans have internet and at least 50%+ have wifi?

Could you direct me to the interesting statistical report that confirms that - or did one just pull it out of their posterior?

Senior citizens in retirement homes alone probably blow your generalization right out of the water - let alone middle america.

[Anthony P]

The BD-Live features were supposed to be mandatory sometime this year. I think that has been relaxed.

no, BD live was never meant to be mandatory it was always meant to be optional. BD-PiP became mandatory in Nov on new model players.\

I think David's concern doesn't revolve around features he personally wants or even features he thinks enthusiasts might want.

David is a good guy and I like and agree with most of the stuff he posts. But I think in this case you are wrong.

I think his concern is that he wants BD to become widely accepted, and one way to derail that is to advertise on the cover, features that a movie includes, but where it is not readily apparent that the feature will be supported by all players.

but that feature will never be supported by all players, for one how do you magically add an Ethernet port on all the players already sold. Two let's say all the CEs are willing to recall all the players and either add an Ethernet connector to make the existing player a live player or replace it with a new live player) and by some weird way they can enforce that everyone must send in their player. There will still be households without internet, there will still be households with dial up, there will still be households with broadband but no network, there will still be households that have everything needed (broadband, router…) but at the wrong place and won’t be willing to pull Ethernet cable to the HT/LR (or through the whole house – I have DVD players in 8 rooms, BD in 2.5) because the benefits are just not worth the cost. Or how about portable players? Car players?…..

So, Bob walks into a store, sees the new Sleeping Beauty BD, has a look at the cover and sees that during the movie, his daughter can pause, bring up a menu, and quickly go to the web to read about apples, or sleep apnia, or famous wicked step-mothers. All of which would be context sensitive to the movie, and maybe to the scene in the movie, which makes it more difficult to just run to your PC and browse there.

Anyway, so Bob then goes and buys a player, gets it home and finds out the player isn't capable of that interactivity, gets PO'd goes to work and tells everyone what a lousy experience he had with BD. So maybe they get turned off as well.

So, Bob walks into a store, sees the new ID4 BD, has a look at the cover and sees that he can have motion code with his seat moving in response to the movie. All of which would be context sensitive to the movie, and to the scene in the movie, which makes it more difficult to just lifting and shaking his own butt when he thinks he should do it.

Anyway, so Bob then goes and buys a player, gets it home and finds out the player isn't capable of D-Box motion code, gets PO'd goes to work and tells everyone what a lousy experience he had with BD. So maybe they get turned off as well.

Do you see how I can say the same thing about any feature? what makes live so special? I used D-Box but my ID4 also said DTS HD MA which I can't listen to (so maybe Bob will go to work and say MA is not worth it so BD is not worth it because the audio is no better then DTS)

Still, when Bob thinks about these features, he should realize that he'll need internet access, and when he thinks about that, he should think about how he gets it to the player, then start checking the box of the player before he buys, and maybe goes and asks questions. Most people aren't likely to have an Ethernet connection next to the TV. So hopefully Bob will check to find out what he needs before he buys.

exactly some "Bob" might be PO because he made a bad choice not buying a BD-live player when he wanted to access those features but he can just as easily be POed because he bought the wrong BD-live player and can't access the features or he might have bought the right BD player but does not know how to set it up on his network to access the features or he might be POed because he spent more on a BD-live player but then when he brought it home he found out he did not have what is needed (will anyone build a BD live player for dialup?) or be PO because he now needs to spend more (my back neighbour uses free dial up through work, if he bought a BD-live player and wanted BD-live features he would need to start spending on ADSL every month)

In the end you did not help POed Bob who wants to use BD-live but is not smart enough to buy the right machine but you screwed Joe who just wants to watch a movie but can’t afford the more expensive BD-live player.

[TheRealBob]

Originally Posted by scott1256ca

So, Bob walks into a store, sees the new Sleeping Beauty BD, has a look at the cover and sees that during the movie, his daughter can pause, bring up a menu, and quickly go to the web to read about apples, or sleep apnia, or famous wicked step-mothers.

Perhaps BD Live will also allow her to go to a pharmacy site to refill her Ritalin prescription?

[WickyWoo]

I firmly believe that the players of 2009 will all have ethernet for a firmware upgrade, and once you place a 1GB+ card in an SD slot automatically enable 2.0. Adding those features is $2-3 at manufacture, though I don't know if there's any royalty increase on top of it. Regardless, the SD card is the most expensive bit in there.

[DaViD Boulet]

As long as players can be upgraded to 2.0, that satisfies the problem "pissed off customer" problem who spend $399 on a player only to learn *later* that it didn't play the BD special-features he assumed it did and now he's stuck buying a new player if he wants to access those features.

So, Bob walks into a store, sees the new Sleeping Beauty BD, has a look at the cover and sees that during the movie, his daughter can pause, bring up a menu, and quickly go to the web to read about apples, or sleep apnia, or famous wicked step-mothers. All of which would be context sensitive to the movie, and maybe to the scene in the movie, which makes it more difficult to just run to your PC and browse there.

Anyway, so Bob then goes and buys a player, gets it home and finds out the player isn't capable of that interactivity, gets PO'd goes to work and tells everyone what a lousy experience he had with BD. So maybe they get turned off as well.

Correct.

[Grubert]

It never ends.

Now it's Ultimate AV magazine writer Scott Wilkinson:

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/scottw.../032408bluray/

[DaViD Boulet]

Overall I agree with his position that the lack of standardized features for BD hardware is a problem. It doesn't matter if a few fans at a site like this think it's ok to read a forum for six months to figure out which overpriced BD player best stuits their needs... the average consumer assumes (as he should) that the BD hardware he buys will... well... access all standard BD features.

The real problem I have with article are criticisms of BD that don't make sense... especially in comparison with HD DVD. For instance, he criticizes the PS3 for not bitstreaming advanced audio. Well... that's not exactly a standard feature on HD DVD players either, and most HD DVD players don't internally decode DTS-HD MA.