Toe-in or straight for front speakers ?

[dazkyl]

What's the best way to position my front tower speakers (JAMO S608) ? Toe in or straight ? The manual says that i should position them with a little bit of a toe-in for a louder volume. Should i point them exactly at the listening position or pointing exactly on the outside of my shoulders for a wider experience?

Thanks.

[josh6113]

My advice is to try them both ways and settle on what you think is best.There isn't a right or wrong way...its what you think sounds best...

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by dazkyl

What's the best way to position my front tower speakers (JAMO S608) ? Toe in or straight ? The manual says that i should position them with a little bit of a toe-in for a louder volume. Should i point them exactly at the listening position or pointing exactly on the outside of my shoulders for a wider experience?

Thanks.

Toe-in has nothing to do with volume, so maybe you meant something else.

Like josh6113 said....experiment. I will say that if the manufacturer recommends toe-in, then you're likely going to get an optimized sound. I'm not familiar with Jamo speakers, but they likely have a very narrow off-axis dispersion...hence the requirement (in their opinion) for Toe-in.

Start off with small increments (1/4" or 1/2") and take it from there.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by josh6113

My advice is to try them both ways and settle on what you think is best.There isn't a right or wrong way...its what you think sounds best...

Thank you very much to what /\ he /\ said!

just like it was said, there is no "best way" because of the room, the speakers, the source, your ears, any and everything plays a part so, move them around until it sounds best to you for your listening pleasure.

[BigAl87]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

Toe-in has nothing to do with volume, so maybe you meant something else.

Like josh6113 said....experiment. I will say that if the manufacturer recommends toe-in, then you're likely going to get an optimized sound. I'm not familiar with Jamo speakers, but they likely have a very narrow off-axis dispersion...hence the requirement (in their opinion) for Toe-in.

Start off with small increments (1/4" or 1/2") and take it from there.

You have a very good point Jojn, Totem tells you to experiment I like a very very slight toe in with the Forest I would say it's about 1/4 toed in, it does not show in the pics, it's quite minimal.

[lucv13]

Different manufacturers all have their own opinion on the matter for me it's a personal choice and have always had a slight toe in on all the speakers I've used...

[Big Daddy]

FRONT SPEAKERS SETUP

For front speakers, put the speakers at least 2-3 feet (approx. 1 meter) away from the front and side walls.

• The distance between the two speakers should be between 6 to 10 feet (2 to 3 meters).
• The distance between your main listening chair and the distance between the two speakers should be approximately the same. They should form approximately an equilateral triangle.

• The tweeters should be about the same level as your ears when you are seated. For smaller speakers, use a stand. Slight tilting backward or forward of the speakers until the tweeters point toward your head may also work.
• You can slightly angle (toe-in) the speakers toward the listening chair. You can use a string or laser pointer to make sure both speakers are angled exactly the same. Angling the speakers toward the center of the listening position will make the sound brighter, clearer, with a sharper focus, and a more solid central image. Pointing the speakers straight forward, parallel with each other, will result in a warmer less sharply focused sound. Angling the speakers too much may have two disadvantages:
  1. It may ruin the sound stage.
  2. It will not be very effective for others who may be sitting elsewhere in the room. Don't be selfish.

Play a CD with good soundstaging and a singer in the middle.

• If the soundstage is good and wide but the center stage is blurred, move the speakers closer together.
• If the center stage is focused and sounds great, but the soundstage isn't very wide, angle the speakers away from the listening position a little at a time until the soundstage becomes wider without losing the center stage.
• Many speakers may sound better if they are pointed at your shoulders rather than directly at your head.
• Always use a string or laser pointer to make sure both speakers are angled the same way.
• Don't be afraid to experiment. Rooms are not the same and interaction with room boundaries, furniture, carpets, etc. play an important role in the sound that you hear.
• Many experts believe that in a small home theater room, you hear the room and not the speakers. It is highly recommended that you use room treatment.

[hifiHigh]

I turned my Polks in juuuust a little...

[v_squared123]

In all honesty, i think it is entirely based on your listening preference. It does sound louder toe-ed in and the sound is more direct but when it is not toe-ed in the sound field can be wider and fill the room as opposed to your sweet spot. Try both positions and pick the one that suits you the most

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by v_squared123

In all honesty, i think it is entirely based on your listening preference. It does sound louder toe-ed in and the sound is more direct but when it is not toe-ed in the sound field can be wider and fill the room as opposed to your sweet spot. Try both positions and pick the one that suits you the most

I fail to understand what loudness has to do with toe-in. It's NOT louder, it can't be louder if you have haven't adjusted the volume. It is however more direct, which may give you the illusion that it's louder, but it's NOT louder.

[WiWavelength]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

I fail to understand what loudness has to do with toe-in. It's NOT louder, it can't be louder if you have haven't adjusted the volume. It is however more direct, which may give you the illusion that it's louder, but it's NOT louder.

Johnny, you may be titled a moderator, but you are showing your lack of science/engineering expertise.

Your second and third statements are POTENTIALLY wrong. Loudspeakers are subject to polar response. Most speakers demonstrate diminishing response at extreme angles, especially at higher frequencies. And that characteristic, in combination with room acoustics, can alter tonal balance, not to mention, loudness, for which is the ear is highly frequency dependent.

AJ

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Johnny, you may be titled a moderator, but you are showing your lack of science/engineering expertise.

Your second and third statements are POTENTIALLY wrong. Loudspeakers are subject to polar response. Most speakers demonstrate diminishing response at extreme angles, especially at higher frequencies. And that characteristic, in combination with room acoustics, can alter tonal balance, not to mention, loudness, for which is the ear is highly frequency dependent.

AJ

AJ,

I have never claimed to be an expert, and have said many, many times that I'm not, especially when it comes to the area of science/engineering. The fact I'm a Moderator has nothing to do with this. I'm a Moderator because I'm a charming person, nothing more.

I can't or won't dispute what you said, but I think it's a stretch when you're taking about the average toe-in people are employing, not extreme angles. I understand that completely.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

AJ,

I have never claimed to be an expert, and have said many, many times that I'm not, especially when it comes to the area of science/engineering. The fact I'm a Moderator has nothing to do with this. I'm a Moderator because I'm a charming person, nothing more.

I can't or won't dispute what you said, but I think it's a stretch when you're taking about the average toe-in people are employing, not extreme angles. I understand that completely.

All of us Mods are charming people

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

All of us Mods are charming people

You know it!

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

All of us Mods are charming people

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

You know it!

another tough night for the dudes in the stripped shirts i see!!!!

[v_squared123]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vinyl

I fail to understand what loudness has to do with toe-in. It's NOT louder, it can't be louder if you have haven't adjusted the volume. It is however more direct, which may give you the illusion that it's louder, but it's NOT louder.

Which is why I said it sounds louder, not that it is louder I find that the music feels or sounds loudest when the speakers are aimed towards me rather than when they aren't. Are they actually louder in this position? Prolly not, though I would need an spl meter just to check. Either way, I think it is preference and that is what this hobby is about when it comes to down minor detailing like this. (Y)

[prerich]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Johnny, you may be titled a moderator, but you are showing your lack of science/engineering expertise.

Your second and third statements are POTENTIALLY wrong. Loudspeakers are subject to polar response. Most speakers demonstrate diminishing response at extreme angles, especially at higher frequencies. And that characteristic, in combination with room acoustics, can alter tonal balance, not to mention, loudness, for which is the ear is highly frequency dependent.

AJ

You're not only talking about polar response, you are also referring to a slight Doppler affect (the closer an object - the louder it sounds - but truthfully its not "louder" it's closer or in the case of toe-in more directed energy). We're all here to learn Wave, and Johnny one of our best Mods, he keeps things running smmmoooothly...that's the Mods job. We may not know as much as you (or remember as much - been a while for me studying frequency modulation & signal demultiplexing), but we are a willing bunch, willing to listen.

I know things can come across wrong on the web, and a certain amount of tact is necessary. We aren't all experts - but what I've learned in time is that ignorance and arrogance are twins - the only thing about them is that ignorance can be recovered from quickly with knowledge (give it to us...please, we love to learn), but arrogance is more difficult ( not accusing you of arrogance either ) arrogance continues until examined by someone else and humbled. We all have something to offer - lets learn to be smmmmoooooth, and sharpen our acoustic wits !

[WiWavelength]

Here is the problem, guys. I am a moderator in another forum, so I know the tendencies that come with authority. The issue is when authority does not line up with accepted fact.

I have been guilty of that myself. And Johnny, prerich, both of you are guilty of that in this thread.

Johnny, in your capitalization of "NOT" multiple times in your post, you indicated something emphatic that may or may not be accurate. Changes in placement and/or angle can cause concomitant changes in the balance between direct and reflected sound, and that can cause increases or decreases in overall SPL at the listening position, too.

prerich, honestly, your understanding of Doppler effect is woefully wrong. It involves moving objects and frequency shifts -- neither of which apply in this instance.

Those are elaborations of accepted facts, guys...

AJ

[prerich]

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Here is the problem, guys. I am a moderator in another forum, so I know the tendencies that come with authority. The issue is when authority does not line up with accepted fact.

I have been guilty of that myself. And Johnny, prerich, both of you are guilty of that in this thread.

Johnny, in your capitalization of "NOT" multiple times in your post, you indicated something emphatic that may or may not be accurate. Changes in placement and/or angle can cause concomitant changes in the balance between direct and reflected sound, and that can cause increases or decreases in overall SPL at the listening position, too.

prerich, honestly, your understanding of Doppler effect is woefully wrong. It involves moving objects and frequency shifts -- neither of which apply in this instance.

Those are elaborations of accepted facts, guys...

AJ

If you toe-in a speaker - haven't you moved it? Just saying . I know you relate the doppler to moving objects (objects moving away and toward a stationary object). However in your attempt to belittle my comment, you failed to realize that when you move your speakers the doppler effect (regardless how small - you have a moving object and freqency shifts) is still in play - you will change pitch and gain when you move your speakers. It's a game of perception, so it does apply in this instance. If you move your speakers closer to you - you will need to turn your volume down. (I wouldn't listen to my Cornwalls at my present volume if they were 6 feet from me vice 12-13 feet from me). A toe-in of 23 degrees gives my Cornwalls a measured gain at my listening seat of 1.5db ...so I don't toe-in. This works well due to the fact that my mains are more effcient than my center. I lose 1.5db without toe-in ...that's measured. So there is an increase in gain although the actual volume has remained the same - and I won't get into what toe-in can do to my eq settings (change in perceived frequency pitch).

And yes I know you are a mod on another forum - I belong to that one too - but I lurk there more than I post.

[prerich]

@wiWavelength Oh just in case you think I don't understand... Yes, I know you are talking about a moving object like a tornado, or horn ect. I'm just using the doppler effect reasoning not in relation to an object that's moving toward you and then away from you. I'm using it in a small context...you move your speakers toward you or away from you....beaming at you or away from you. I'm just trying to simplify what the OP may be experiencing. (And yes there are a ton of variables that are at play...such as direct and refelected sound and preceived gain and loss of SPL...I agree with you. However more than one aspect of science can be in play - especially if you're talking acoustics).