Sony Bravia weird flicker on clothing pattern

[BTobin]

Hi,
Sorry if this is not a new question. I've been aware for a while now that with certain films clothing patterns (especially corduroy (specifically in films like Hugo)) start to flicker in this kind of odd way. It doesn't appear to be aliasing/moire. I've read at least with Hugo that the film had a great transfer. I suppose it could be my player (Panasonic DMP BD87) or the TV. Panasonic told me to try a new HDMI cable, which I did. The issue persists. I now suspect the TV. I've tried a number of settings and resettings and have arrived at a point where it is far less noticeable. I'm just trying to figure out what this might be, if it's my screen or not my screen. I'm just the kind of person who gets distracted by things like this. I saw Hugo played on a blu ray player on a big screen and did notice a hint of the flicker in the clothes but it wasn't as strong as mine. I don't think the discs are defective because it has happened with a couple of them. I can't find any answers or similar accounts though I've looked. At least for Hugo again (I use this as a primary example as it's one of my favorite films) I can't find a bad word about the 2D transfer.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BTobin

Hi,
Sorry if this is not a new question. I've been aware for a while now that with certain films clothing patterns (especially corduroy (specifically in films like Hugo)) start to flicker in this kind of odd way. It doesn't appear to be aliasing/moire. I've read at least with Hugo that the film had a great transfer. I suppose it could be my player (Panasonic DMP BD87) or the TV. Panasonic told me to try a new HDMI cable, which I did. The issue persists. I now suspect the TV. I've tried a number of settings and resettings and have arrived at a point where it is far less noticeable. I'm just trying to figure out what this might be, if it's my screen or not my screen. I'm just the kind of person who gets distracted by things like this. I saw Hugo played on a blu ray player on a big screen and did notice a hint of the flicker in the clothes but it wasn't as strong as mine. I don't think the discs are defective because it has happened with a couple of them. I can't find any answers or similar accounts though I've looked. At least for Hugo again (I use this as a primary example as it's one of my favorite films) I can't find a bad word about the 2D transfer.

What you're seeing is "screen door effect", and it's one of the two reasons I went to a Kuro. I had seen it in a number of films, where there were close lines being panned - The Dark Knight started with this, with the smooth panned helicopter shots of the city, and it was obvious that the vertical lines of the building windows was suffering from this. Any movie with overhead city shots makes it glaringly obvious - the second Bourne film, and The International come to mind - and it's disconcerting and distracting at the same time.

The second reason I got a Kuro was again The Dark Knight - the opening shot of The Joker waiting to be picked up by his team on the corner showed no definition of his suit - it was all just non-contrast gray, and I knew I needed higher black contrast. It also revealed some screen-door effect.

Both of my televisions - a Sony XBR 1080i rear projection, and a Sony XBR2 LCD - couldn't shake it. On the LCD, I could alleviate it somewhat by changing player output to 24 FPS instead of 60, set the television to the same, and saw an immediate improvement. It works for Blu-Ray, but doesn't do much for regular broadcast television (where it's usually not an issue anyway).

I'm not familiar with the settings on your player, but you can try it if it does. The problem is the speed of the display - there are a lot of pixels turning on and off, very quickly, and they tend to stumble over each other.

There's nothing wrong with your television or player, other than the speed of the display. Going to 24FPS should help a lot. I've seen lower end televisions, that look great (Vizio and others) where this is the only stumbling block. You don't need to take a hammer to your wallet the way I did; try the 24FPS trick, and it should help.

[BTobin]

Thanks so much! I'll give it try. I'm glad I know what it's called now.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BTobin

Thanks so much! I'll give it try. I'm glad I know what it's called now.

You might also hear references to "3:2 pulldown", as the 60Hz signal that comes as a default displays a 24 frames per second display for movies. There's all kinds of noise about multiples of the 60hz signal - 120Hz, 240Hz, 600Hz, etc. But the easiest method, and just as effective, is to go 24FPS.

Good hunting!

[BTobin]

I'm having a bit of trouble finding where to get the TV to do 24 fps or 24P. I've been poking about in the settings but I think I must be looking in the wrong place.

[BTobin]

Managed to find the 24P setting but I'm still seeing this weird flickering in the corduroy pattern

[Hayabusa85]

What you're seeing is "screen door effect", and it's one of the two reasons I went to a Kuro. I had seen it in a number of films, where there were close lines being panned - The Dark Knight started with this, with the smooth panned helicopter shots of the city, and it was obvious that the vertical lines of the building windows was suffering from this. Any movie with overhead city shots makes it glaringly obvious - the second Bourne film, and The International come to mind - and it's disconcerting and distracting at the same time.

The second reason I got a Kuro was again The Dark Knight - the opening shot of The Joker waiting to be picked up by his team on the corner showed no definition of his suit - it was all just non-contrast gray, and I knew I needed higher black contrast. It also revealed some screen-door effect.

Both of my televisions - a Sony XBR 1080i rear projection, and a Sony XBR2 LCD - couldn't shake it. On the LCD, I could alleviate it somewhat by changing player output to 24 FPS instead of 60, set the television to the same, and saw an immediate improvement. It works for Blu-Ray, but doesn't do much for regular broadcast television (where it's usually not an issue anyway).

I'm not familiar with the settings on your player, but you can try it if it does. The problem is the speed of the display - there are a lot of pixels turning on and off, very quickly, and they tend to stumble over each other.

There's nothing wrong with your television or player, other than the speed of the display. Going to 24FPS should help a lot. I've seen lower end televisions, that look great (Vizio and others) where this is the only stumbling block. You don't need to take a hammer to your wallet the way I did; try the 24FPS trick, and it should help.

That isn't the screen door effect at all. The screen door effect is simply sitting too close to a TV that you can make out the pixel spacing which then looks like a screen door is over the screen. So Plasma are no better for that. And obviously it is just a matter of picking the right size of TV so you are not too close.

-----------------------

Anyway, to the topic at hand what you are describing sounds like moiré which is a filming issue mixed with a costume designer making a poor decision on a clothing pattern. More common with older shows/movies where cameras were worse for it and costume designers had less knowledge of clothing not to use. But still happens every now and then where a costume designer goes with looks over what is best for filming since cameras can still have an issue with it in modern times as well. So yeah this isn't an issue you should be worrying about with your TV. Even still photography will have an issue with it.

[Blu-Dog]

Hayabusa said:

"That isn't the screen door effect at all. The screen door effect is simply sitting too close to a TV that you can make out the pixel spacing which then looks like a screen door is over the screen. So Plasma are no better for that. And obviously it is just a matter of picking the right size of TV so you are not too close."

Not sure why I couldn't quote your post normally. Your description of "screen door effect" is totally off, my friend. It has nothing to do with how the pixels are spaced - it's about how they are illuminated electronically, and in what sequence. It can happen on any high definition screen, at either 1080p or 1080i. It is most obvious with any scene where there is motion, and long rows of objects changing direction or aspect ratio.

It's a common problem, I'm surprised you're not familiar with it.

Hayabusa also said:

"Anyway, to the topic at hand what you are describing sounds like moiré which is a filming issue mixed with a costume designer making a poor decision on a clothing pattern. More common with older shows/movies where cameras were worse for it and costume designers had less knowledge of clothing not to use. But still happens every now and then where a costume designer goes with looks over what is best for filming since cameras can still have an issue with it in modern times as well. So yeah this isn't an issue you should be worrying about with your TV. Even still photography will have an issue with it."

The example I gave was not of some poor costume designer muddled in his/her fabric choices, but of buildings, filmed from the air, in Imax, in The Dark Knight. It's a common problem, the Bourne Ultimatum (aerial shots of Berlin) and The International (the rooftop chase in Istanbul, with the same location used in Skyfall) being other examples. It does happen with fabrics, too - where long rows of similar objects appear to be seen through a screen door.

It's possible to reduce, or even eliminate this effect, which is largely a part of the 3:2 pulldown problem of moving a 24 frames per second image to a 60 frames per second image on most consumer televisions. Settings on many Blu players and televisions counteract it, and work pretty well.

Do some reading on it before you give bad advice.

[Hayabusa85]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Hayabusa said:

"That isn't the screen door effect at all. The screen door effect is simply sitting too close to a TV that you can make out the pixel spacing which then looks like a screen door is over the screen. So Plasma are no better for that. And obviously it is just a matter of picking the right size of TV so you are not too close."

Not sure why I couldn't quote your post normally. Your description of "screen door effect" is totally off, my friend. It has nothing to do with how the pixels are spaced - it's about how they are illuminated electronically, and in what sequence. It can happen on any high definition screen, at either 1080p or 1080i. It is most obvious with any scene where there is motion, and long rows of objects changing direction or aspect ratio.

It's a common problem, I'm surprised you're not familiar with it.

Hayabusa also said:

"Anyway, to the topic at hand what you are describing sounds like moiré which is a filming issue mixed with a costume designer making a poor decision on a clothing pattern. More common with older shows/movies where cameras were worse for it and costume designers had less knowledge of clothing not to use. But still happens every now and then where a costume designer goes with looks over what is best for filming since cameras can still have an issue with it in modern times as well. So yeah this isn't an issue you should be worrying about with your TV. Even still photography will have an issue with it."

The example I gave was not of some poor costume designer muddled in his/her fabric choices, but of buildings, filmed from the air, in Imax, in The Dark Knight. It's a common problem, the Bourne Ultimatum (aerial shots of Berlin) and The International (the rooftop chase in Istanbul, with the same location used in Skyfall) being other examples. It does happen with fabrics, too - where long rows of similar objects appear to be seen through a screen door.

It's possible to reduce, or even eliminate this effect, which is largely a part of the 3:2 pulldown problem of moving a 24 frames per second image to a 60 frames per second image on most consumer televisions. Settings on many Blu players and televisions counteract it, and work pretty well.

Do some reading on it before you give bad advice.

No my description of the screen door effect is not off. Based on what you are trying to describe I am thinking you are talking about the dirty screen effect not the screen door effect. The dirty screen effect is what creates just as it says a dirty screen effect during fast pans and stuff so based on your examples of panning shots I think that is what you mean. And yes that also has to do with the illumination which is another reason I think it is what you mean and are simply getting your "screen" effects mixed up. Typically banding is also considered by many to be the dirty screen effect although there really is a difference between the two and the banding is just more obvious. And typically if you have banding you have the dirty screen effect too so it really isn't a problem linking them together as one problem as people tend to. But just like the screen door effect your claim that Plasma is not prone to it is off. There are issues unique to LED/LCD and also to Plasma but neither of those are unique to one tech.

But again the screen door effect is all about pixel spacing or pixel density to more more precise. It isn't even something that should be considered a problem and is something every single television has. DLP sets made it the least noticeable because of the better pixel density and less spacing between pixels as seen in this comparison.



It is one of the reasons televisions have recommended viewing distances because not counting 4k sets or older sets that didn't have 1080i/1080p all televisions use the same resolution so they have the same pixel count. So obviously when you put the same number of pixels in a monitor there is going to be more spacing between pixels on a 55" inch screen than a 32" screen. Hence why you need to be further back for a 55" screen to not notice the screen door effect but also not to degrade the picture quality. This is the same kind of thing that allows a retina display on a new iPhone to look better than an old iPhone. The PPI is much better with the retina display so it looks much more detailed at a closer distance. It is also why something like the 3DS doesn't have the greatest of screens because the PPI on the 3DS is really poor. So the screen door effect goes beyond just noticing the spacing and is also a key part to picture quality. And as you can see in that example above of the DLP making it less noticeable it also degraded the fine details in the image making it look more blurry because in order to achieve that they had to have larger pixels. So it was a double edged sword. Much like what the 3DS XL has to do compared to the normal 3DS and why the XL degrades the image since the resolution and pixel count is maintained but they need to fill a much larger screen.

The other difference between the screen door effect and the dirty screen effect is that you can get panels without the dirty screen effect. Hence the term panel lottery which is tossed around when people are buying new sets or discussing new models for the year. The dirty screen effect is sadly more than anything the result of poor manufacturing that isn't helped with how thin televisions are these days. Which is one reason that Plasma's while prone to it to have a bit more success with it since they are not as thin.

And the other part of my post had nothing at all to do with your post about buildings and panning shots. I was getting back on topic about what the topic creator had asked about which was specifically flicker on a clothing pattern. Specifically a kind of clothing pattern (Corduroy) that would cause moiré which is probably what they are noticing. Although if you do want to talk about buildings and stuff too then moiré can happen on non-clothing objects and I was just talking about clothing patterns due to that being what the topic creator had asked about. Any object that has a pattern with a lot of detail can cause moiré. Brick walls, wood grains, metal fences etc. It is just most common in certain clothing patterns. Hence why a lot of costumes in film use a lot of solid colors and fabrics.

As he already pointed out what you were suggesting didn't do anything to what he was talking about. Because if it is indeed moiré it is something that has to be eliminated during filming or post editing since there are tools in programs like Photoshop to deal with it. And if you are talking about the dirty screen effect as I think you are then settings won't really fix that sadly. At most you will make it slightly less noticeable which you seemed to apply too by saying you only alleviated it on you old LCD. But won't be able to eliminate it. If you have it then you have it and learn to live with it or start playing the panel lottery of exchanges as I have been doing this year.

Some videos of the three issues to show them in action.....

Moiré

Moire effect - YouTube

Screen Door Effect (As seen by somebody filming the set with the camera extremely close to it to show the pixel spacing.)

Screen door effect - YouTube

Dirty Screen Effect/Banding

LW550T DSE/Banding - YouTube

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There is one other thing I didn't factor in though which might not be a case of moiré and would be something unique to a Sony set depending on what your Sony is. That is that reality creation doesn't play nice with some Blu-Ray if you have it on manual. Especially if you have the resolution cranked up to max under the manual settings. Manual settings with reality creation are good for games and television but with Blu-Ray best to turn it off or on auto due to the problems it can cause with certain films. So if you have a Sony set with reality creation and you have it on manual then also try turning that off or to auto. Based on the fact that we are talking corduroy I am still thinking moiré is the likely offender though since that is not a clothing material that will play nice with cameras.

[joie]

OP, I may know what the problem is. Geometric patterns can show-up compression problems. Take a look at the shirt Cary Grant is wearing in the first part of 'It Takes a Thief,' The samurai costumes in 'Yojimbo' and/or 'Sanjuro,' and the chain-link fence and windows in the early parts of 'West Side Story.' It's not a problem with your display, even if you can misadjust it to "solve" the problem. Could the "compression artist" have fixed it? Possibly, but to do so would hve required shot-by-shot compression changes.

[BTobin]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I am familiar with moire from filming my own stuff with a canon 60D and don't like it one bit. I hadn't heard of any issues with the Hugo blu ray like this. All the reviews understandably give it a great video score which is why I thought the problem must be on my end. I only see the effect in two shots toward the middle of the movie where Hugo and Isabel are talking with Tabard. I thought for a while it was a faulty disc. I think I noticed a similar effect in the final chase sequence in the Dark Knight Rises. It's more noticeable to me in Hugo because the shot is static and is caused by the actress moving slightly causing the corduroy to create the pattern.

[BTobin]

Oh my model is the Sony Bravia KDL 32EX700. I wasn't sure if I should call them up or Panasonic up about the DMP BD87 hooked up to it to see what's going on and if I can fix it. I had an LG player before that crapped out last year. I've had Hugo on blu ray since it first out and maybe just didn't notice the effect until now. The effect I'm seeing doesn't look like the moire I've encountered, it kind of pulsates/flickers and gets slightly brighter in the area of the cloth. The moire I've seen usually looks a bit wavy and it doesn't usually get bright it just appears as a bunch of lines of rainbowy goo.