I've Just Re-Run Audyssey, Now It Sounds Awful

[Ben_R]

Hi.

I have just re-run the Audyssey auto set-up on my AVR as my missus has been complaining it's too boomy due to the new sub and now it sounds like everything is muffled

It's almost like the sound is coming through cotton wool or like my ears need to "pop" similar to that experience when your are in a plane at high altitude.

Any advice or help with adjusting/changing the setting would be appreciated. Below is what the AVR is currently set at.

Amp Assign

Front A Bi-Amp

Speaker Config.

Front - Large
Sentre - Small
Subwoofer - Yes
Surround - Small

Bass Settings

SW Mode LFE

LPF for LFE 80Hz

Channel Level

Front L - 4.0db
Centre - 3.0db
front R -5.0db
Surround R -5.0db
Surround L -7.0db
Subwoofer -12.0db

Crossover Frequency

Crossover Frequency 40Hz

[HAMP]

In a joking way, I always say if you don’t like the results, just run it again. That is what I use to say and did when I was using audyssey XT with my Onkyo 805.

When I re-run it, it would give me slightly different results with XT, but with XT32, it is almost always the exact same thing.

I always ran my late at night, and I turned off everything. I even turned off my DVR to my DirecTV.

I’m pretty sure you know all of the precaution before running audyssey.

[Ben_R]

Unfortunately the AVR isn't up to date enough to be running XT or XT32, it's running DSX - the upgrade disc you had to buy separately.

Regarding the precautions I think so but is there a definitive list anywhere?

I can only set this up to 6 listening positions.

[HAMP]

I cannot find the print out I had, but I will look for it. Here is a vid that I tell people to watch, and maybe watch it twice, because sometimes people miss the little things he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okyNlhJ3Hvo

Looking at your results, I believe I see a few little problems.

Fronts should be set to small.
LPF should be set to 120
Your crossover is a little low, Maybe raise that to at least 60hz.
If your crossover isn’t individually set per speaker, and it is for all of them, then make that 80hz.

Also, your sub is set far too low. Try adjusting the gain on the sub a little lower, so that your AVR sub trim will come closer to ‘0’. If your AVR has setting from (-12) to (12), and you reach one of those, then there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

[Ben_R]

I knew I should have written all this down before I reconfigured the AVR, thanks for the help

Thanks for the youtube tutorial, glad I did that bit right. I also showed it to the missus as she asked why she couldn't sit quietly on the sofa whilst I ran Audyssey

Made all the changes you have recommended

AVR Sub level is set at 0, volume level on sub set at -8.

[Mr.Twinks]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I cannot find the print out I had, but I will look for it. Here is a vid that I tell people to watch, and maybe watch it twice, because sometimes people miss the little things he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okyNlhJ3Hvo

Looking at your results, I believe I see a few little problems.

Fronts should be set to small.
LPF should be set to 120
Your crossover is a little low, Maybe raise that to at least 60hz.
If your crossover isn’t individually set per speaker, and it is for all of them, then make that 80hz.

Also, your sub is set far too low. Try adjusting the gain on the sub a little lower, so that your AVR sub trim will come closer to ‘0’. If your AVR has setting from (-12) to (12), and you reach one of those, then there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

This!

[rpatt]

Read through this.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/off...#post_21782993

[Ben_R]

Just a little update.

Amp Assign

Normal (7.1)

Speaker Config.

Front - Small
Centre - Small
Subwoofer - Yes
Surround - Small
S.Back - Small

Bass Settings

SW Mode - LFE

LPF for LFE - 120Hz

Channel Level

Front L - 4.0db
Centre - 3.0db
Front R -5.0db
Surround R -5.0db
S. Back R
S. Back L
Surround L -7.0db
Subwoofer -0.0db

Crossover Frequency

Front 80Hz
Centre 80Hz
Surround 100Hz
S.Back 100Hz

Subwoofer Volume

-8db

[HAMP]

I'm not sure I understood something you said before, but are you able to buy an upgrade to get a better audyssey?

If so, how much does that cost?

[Ben_R]

Originally Posted by HAMP

I'm not sure I understood something you said before, but are you able to buy an upgrade to get a better audyssey?

If so, how much does that cost?

Not better Audyssey, just the option to add Audyssey DSX which was only available with Denon's AVR 4310 and 4810 at that time. Audyssey DSX is surround processing rather than room correction I think.

IIRC this "upgrade" was only available for the Denon AVR 3310 but I could be wrong. This "upgrade" was done via a code which came on a small disc or packet and cost me a small fortune! I connected the AVR to the internet, entered the code and the upgrade was done.

Here's a link to available upgrades for Denon's AVR's - http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pa...e=Discontinued

[Hearing specialist]

DSX is to allow for front width channels or front height channels. The preferred choice first with Audyssey is to use width first as to height. Your signature doesn't show front sides or height speakers. DSX is seperate from any room correction within Audyssey.

[spaceape]

Be sure not to mess with the AVR speaker trims after you're done running Audyssey. Not sure if you did this with your subwoofer trim? Only turn down the gain using the physical subwoofer knob not the trim setting inside of the AVR and then re-run Audyssey or use an spl meter to save some time.

Also it might be best having the same crossover for all your speakers. Take the speaker that Audyssey measured as having the highest crossover and raise it by 15-20HZ, then set the same crossover freq. for all the other speakers.

Remember that the resulting crossover settings you get from running Audyssey is not really the best settings but the lowest your speakers can go in frequency before they really start to distort. The "small" speaker setting is the best setting if you have a subwoofer. "Large" can really only be used if you have extremely good speakers that can go super low without distortion.

[Far Out]

Originally Posted by spaceape

Remember that the resulting crossover settings you get from running Audyssey is not really the best settings but the lowest your speakers can go in frequency before they really start to distort. The "small" speaker setting is the best setting if you have a subwoofer. "Large" can really only be used if you have extremely good speakers that can go super low without distortion.

Is it really distortion on the low frequency that is being detected and avoided?

Isn't it just the sharp roll off that happens?

[spaceape]

Originally Posted by Far Out

Is it really distortion on the low frequency that is being detected and avoided?

Isn't it just the sharp roll off that happens?

Im not totally sure as i don't have the measurements i did anymore. I think it's detecting the clipping and it stops just before hitting it completely. I don't think Audysseys suggested settings are ideal because they almost always suggest "Full Range" or "40hz" and the "Large" speaker setting.

But i've measured the "40hz" crossover in REW and it showed me a very uneven responds (60hz however was fine). The "Large" setting also just sounds way to congested for my speakers.

This is only what i've noticed. Everyone should draw their own conclusions.

A very informative link by a guy who knows much more about this subject than i do:

A Guide to Audyssey Auto Calibration & Other Technologies

Should I Set My Speakers to Large or Small?
People always ask this question. The answer is very simple. If you own a subwoofer that outputs good bass sound, you should set all your speakers to SMALL. In general, if you own a subwoofer, it may be wise to set all your speakers to small for several reasons:

1. When there is an overlap of bass sound from the front speakers and the subwoofer, you will get bloated and boomy bass.
2. A subwoofer can play low frequencies all the way down to 20Hz or lower. Even relatively large front speakers cannot go that low.
3. The placement of a sub in a room is the primary factor in receiving good bass sound. You cannot adjust the position of the front speakers and move them to the side or back.
4. If the subwoofer and the front speakers play the same bass frequencies, there will be a possibility of phase cancellation of certain bass frequencies.
5. Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver/amplifier from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom.
6. If you are using the Audyssey MultEQ calibration, you will get much better bass performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters for the other speakers.

People have a psycological difficulty with the word SMALL. They have spent good money on their front speakers and get insulted when the AVR sets them to SMALL. Remember that this is not a personal insult against you or your speakers. My Definitive Technology front speakers have 15" built-in subwoofers with built-in 300 watt amplifiers. In addition to those, I have six external subwoofers in my HT room. When I set the front speakers to SMALL, the quality of the sound (both music and movies) improves.

It is helpful to redefine the words SMALL and LARGE to:

LARGE = The speakers are not Bass Managed.
SMALL = The speakers are Bass Managed.

Read these blogs from Audyssey: Small vs Large and Subwoofer Setup & MultEq.

SPEAKER AND SUBWOOFER SETUP

Subwoofer Setup and Crossover Settings:

1. You need a realtively long (12ft or longer) sub cable to experiment with the position of the sub in the room. Get a long RG6 subwoofer cable from Monoprice.com or any other source. RG6 cables with RCA connectors at both ends have good shielding and work better than regular RCA cables.
2. You may also need a Y adapter (2 male, 1 female).
3. Connect one end of the sub cable to LFE out (sub out or sub pre-out) on the back of the receiver.
4. Connect the other end of the sub cable to the Left channel input (on some subs, the Right channel can also work) of the subwoofer. If you use a Y adapter (2 male, 1 female) and connect the subwoofer cable to both the Left and Right inputs on the back of the sub, you may get between 3db to 6db more output from the subwoofer. Refer to the footnote.
5. Turn the sub to on and set it to Auto.
6. On the back of the sub, turn the crossover all the way up to the maximum level or turn it off. You set the crossovers in the receiver's menu.
7. On the back of the sub, turn the level (gain) to 50%-65%. You can adjust that a little later during calibration. However, it is a good idea not to exceed the 3/4 (75%) point.
8. In the receiver's menu, make sure the subwoofer is turned to ON.
9. In the receiver's menu, set all the speakers to SMALL.
10. In the receiver's menu, set the high pass filter (HPF) crossover frequencies of all your speakers to at least 10Hz or 15Hz above the minimum frequency extension of the speakers. If you can't find the frequency response of your speakers, consult the table at the beginning of this thread.
11. In the receiver's menu, set the low pass filter (LPF) of the subwoofer to 120Hz.
12. If your receiver does not allow you to set the crossovers of the individual speakers, set the (HPF/LPF) crossover to somewhere between 80Hz to 120Hz according to the low frequency extension of your speakers. If you can't find your speakers frequency response, consult the table at the beginning of this thread.
13. In the receiver's menu, set the subwoofer to LFE and not LFE+Main or Double Bass.
14. Run the calibration program. The Audyssey calibration program works best if you run it for multiple listening positions.
15. If the calibration program changes the above settings, you can change them manually to above values. In general, increasing the crossover is ok. If you lower the crossover below the level that Audyssey calibration has set, Auddyssey will not apply its filters to those lower frequencies below the crossover point.

Note: The phase control on the back the subwoofers is a usually a simplistic analog control that only changes the phase at one frequency. Proper phase alignment requires that the phase change is different at every frequency. Unfortunately, that is not possible with an analog control. As a result, Audyssey recommends that you leave the phase control at zero.

After calibration, the actual dB settings are totally meaningless. Each room is different. The same speakers may sound completely different in another room and may require different dB settings. For example, you may have two identical front speakers and set their levels equally. However, it is possible for one of the speakers to sound louder. This is because the location of each speaker with respect to the boundaries is not the same and they interact with boundaries differently.

The most important thing about calibration is that you want the level of all speakers to be the same at your primary listening position. The actual positive or negative dB levels are not that important.

Subwoofers are the problem children. The low bass frequencies have very long wavelengths that are sometimes several times the dimensions of the room. These frequencies interact with the boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) and create standing waves. Because of this, you need to move your subwoofer around to get better performance for your primary listening position. Each time you move your subwoofer, you need to re-calibrate the speakers again. Don't be surprised if your dB levels, particularly for the subwoofer, change drastically.

After calibration, if the level of the subwoofer is set to +12dB, it usually means that your subwoofer is not in a good location or the level on the back of the sub is set too low. Move the sub around and experiment. If the subwoofer's port is in the back, make sure it has enough breathing room and keep it away from the walls. If you decide to increase the gain on the back of the sub, do not go beyond 75%.

[timcat4843]

Originally Posted by Ben_R

Amp Assign

Front A Bi-Amp

Speaker Config.

Front - Large
Sentre - Small
Subwoofer - Yes
Surround - Small

Bass Settings

SW Mode LFE

LPF for LFE 80Hz

Channel Level

Front L - 4.0db
Centre - 3.0db
front R -5.0db
Surround R -5.0db
Surround L -7.0db
Subwoofer -12.0db

Crossover Frequency

Crossover Frequency 40Hz

You should strongly consider upgrading to an AVR, with the latest greatest version of Audyssey,
which includes MultEQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT.

Having said that, with your current AVR, make sure you set your speakers all to small
and all of them to crossover at 80Hz, before running Audyssey.

[Ben_R]

Right, this is still ongoing I thought I had managed to sort it out but no

I have now re-run Auduyssy several times, each time it keeps changing the settings

I have got the new batteries for my trusty decibel meter, to get anywhere the 75db recommended I have to set everything out as below. I can't get the sub woofer anywhere 75db either.

Speaker Config.

Front - Small
Centre - Small
Subwoofer - Yes
Surround - Small

Bass Settings

SW Mode LFE

LPF for LFE 120Hz

Channel Level

Front L +2.5db
Centre +2.0db
front R +1.5db
Surround R +5.0db
Surround L +3.5db
Subwoofer -0.0db

Crossover Frequency

Front 60Hz
Centre 80Hz
Surround 80Hz

Subwoofer Volume

-10db

Someone please help before I throw all my toys out the pram

[spaceape]

If you have a rather reflective room that might be why Audyssey is picking slightly different trims each time. Although it shouldn't differ too much.

If you can't get the subwoofer to 75db then turn the gain up even more using the knob. Remember the pink noise coming from the sub might be variating quite a lot. So pick the db around the mid-point of were the spl meter shows.

Subwoofer Volume

-10db

What do you mean by this. Is it a setting inside of the AVR? If so leave it at the default.

Last thing i can think of is that your speakers aren't connected properly. However the trims look decent enough. Or maybe you just don't like Audyssey (some folks don't) then just disable it and set up manually.

[Ben_R]

Originally Posted by spaceape

What do you mean by this. Is it a setting inside of the AVR? If so leave it at the default.

The AVR setting is at 0.0, the gain on the sub is set by me at -10. It goes from 0 to -100.

I don't get it, the system sounded great before but since adding my new sub and re-running Audyssey the sound is awful, the front end seems seriously lacking.

[Nick The Slick]

Originally Posted by Ben_R

The AVR setting is at 0.0, the gain on the sub is set by me at -10. It goes from 0 to -100.

I don't get it, the system sounded great before but since adding my new sub and re-running Audyssey the sound is awful, the front end seems seriously lacking.

If this just started by adding your sub, it could be out of phase. I have a fully adjustable phase knob on my sub amp that goes from 0-180*. 0 measures awful, 180 measures awful, but around 100-115* is the sweet spot. Makes it blend perfectly with the mains and flattens the low end out tremendously. I don't believe Audyssey corrects for phase. This is just a guess though.

[spaceape]

Originally Posted by Ben_R

The AVR setting is at 0.0, the gain on the sub is set by me at -10. It goes from 0 to -100.

I don't get it, the system sounded great before but since adding my new sub and re-running Audyssey the sound is awful, the front end seems seriously lacking.

Yes strange. Audyssey should be very straight forward. Maybe you're just not used to the way it sounds yet.