LCDs and Plasmas

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Kuraudo

Nice of you to hail plasmas as some holy grail but to piss on an excellent piece of work like XBR4 with lies based off of half truths and incorrect settings is beyond necessary. You fail to see the strengths and weaknesses of both sets.

As do you, please elaborate on which parts of the following review of the XBR4 are "lies" and "incorrect settings"

http://hdguru.com/?p=131

The KDL-46XBR4’s maximum 600-line motion resolution performance tied that of a recently tested Sharp 120Hz LCD panel, making these two the highest measuring motion resolution LCD panels to date. Yet both fall short when compared to the best-measured plasma performance (880 lines) or LCOS microdisplay (780 lines).

However, compared to other flat panel HDTVs, regardless of technology, the rating drops down to ♥♥♥, simply because the best plasma TVs produce better images, with better reds, wider viewing angles, and significantly better motion detail and usually for less money!

So why are consumers passing on better performing plasma TVs and spending more money (per inch screen size) for poorer performing large screen LCDs? Because they produce brighter pictures and consumers mistakenly believe “brighter is better.” However, unless one lives in a retail showroom or has set up an ultra-bright, high ambient light viewing environment that mimics a showroom, the HD Guru™ cannot understand why anyone would pay more to buy a top-rated LCD set when a less expensive top-rated plasma set will outperform it while still providing up to three times more light output than necessary in any typical home environment.

Hmm, I thought you said plasma's were only good in dark rooms? I think Gary Merson, having tested hundreds of panels, is probably more accurate on this subject matter.

[MaleManGuy]

My TV is wonderful during the day-time or night. I am sure they all suck in direct sunlight. The thing that bothers me about LCD is the appearance of being over-exposed. When watching a hockey game for example... the ice will look like the brightest white you've seen in your life... but if you've actually been to a hockey game in person... the ice really isn't as white as an LCD TV makes it out to be... it'll almost kind of grey-ish under the natural lighting.

btw... Enchanted... excellent movie! (that's my plug for the night)

[messym]

I don't think anyone has really mentioned it but, Consumers Reports rates all products on a value system. Bang for the buck so to speak. I think this distorts who they consider to be #1 vs. 2,3,4 etc...

Beta Man do you have the brand reliability percentages by TV type? If not, I can look them up and post them for those looking to pick up a new LCD, Plasma, DLP.

[messym]

According to the March 2008 Consumer Reports issue featuring Top TV's the following is a break down of brand repair history based on data collected from 92,000 respondents who purchased new tvs between 2004 and 2007.

Rear Projection TV's repair rates are broken down into 2 categories: DLP and LCD

For DLP Rear Projection:
19%-Samsung
21%-Mitsubishi
30%-Toshiba
34%-RCA

For LCD Rear Projection:
12%-Sony
16%-Panasonic
24%-Hitachi

For flat panels are broken down into 2 categories also: LCD's and Plasmas

Flat panel LCD tvs:
2%-Panasonic
3%-Sony, Sharp, Samsung, Toshiba, JVC
4%-Philips
9%-Hitachi
11%-Dell

Flat panel plasma tvs:
2%-Panasonic
3%-Pioneer
5%-Samsung
8%-Philips

[cajmoyper]

It's almost as if it's too close to call between LCD and Plasma. I'm not going to say that plasma wins flat out because of 3% but if this were a deciding factor in my decision to purchase a tv, I'd just go with plasma because on average they look better.

[BorrowedTime]

lol,

I just started going through this thread and saw that my video game clan leader is also shopping for a new TV. A lot of compelling arguments in favour of the Plasma, I see. Honestly, I was dead set on a 1080p LCD in the 40"-42" range before reading this, but now I will definitely give plasmas in the same size range a closer look. Now, I have a couple questions/concerns that I hope you guys can clear up for me...

1) With regards to Plasma televisions, I had heard that over time the colour can "bleed". Meaning that as time goes on the colours at the bottom of the screen will retain their deep colours, while they will fade closer to the top. This seems like a silly notion to me, but the person that told me this was insistent that it was true, and as I've been a member here for the last year, and a long time lurker before that. I'm thinking I would have seen mention of this problem before. Anyhow, I have to ask... Is there any validity to that claim, or can I call BS on my friend?

2) Like my clan leader DezNutz, I play a LOT of games, AND I probably tend to watch too much TV as well. And it goes without saying, I love my Blu-ray movies. I'm concerned about lamp life, as I expect I'll put my new television through it's paces and give it a proper work out. (Don't worry, I have an extremely physical job so it isn't as if I lead a sedentary lifestyle... I just like my "down" time to be spent sitting DOWN). Anyhow, what is the lamp life like on Plasmas and LCDs?

3) Last question... My budget is really only going to allow for a 40"-42" range, and given that the 120HZ LCDs are significantly more expensive than their 60HZ counterparts, I'm wondering if this technology is available, or even necessary, on equivalent size 1080p Plasmas?

Thanks for your time and responses in advance

[MaleManGuy]

Originally Posted by BorrowedTime

lol,

I just started going through this thread and saw that my video game clan leader is also shopping for a new TV. A lot of compelling arguments in favour of the Plasma, I see. Honestly, I was dead set on a 1080p LCD in the 40"-42" range before reading this, but now I will definitely give plasmas in the same size range a closer look. Now, I have a couple questions/concerns that I hope you guys can clear up for me...

1) With regards to Plasma televisions, I had heard that over time the colour can "bleed". Meaning that as time goes on the colours at the bottom of the screen will retain their deep colours, while they will fade closer to the top. This seems like a silly notion to me, but the person that told me this was insistent that it was true, and as I've been a member here for the last year, and a long time lurker before that. I'm thinking I would have seen mention of this problem before. Anyhow, I have to ask... Is there any validity to that claim, or can I call BS on my friend?

2) Like my clan leader DezNutz, I play a LOT of games, AND I probably tend to watch too much TV as well. And it goes without saying, I love my Blu-ray movies. I'm concerned about lamp life, as I expect I'll put my new television through it's paces and give it a proper work out. (Don't worry, I have an extremely physical job so it isn't as if I lead a sedentary lifestyle... I just like my "down" time to be spent sitting DOWN). Anyhow, what is the lamp life like on Plasmas and LCDs?

3) Last question... My budget is really only going to allow for a 40"-42" range, and given that the 120HZ LCDs are significantly more expensive than their 60HZ counterparts, I'm wondering if this technology is available, or even necessary, on equivalent size 1080p Plasmas?

Thanks for your time and responses in advance

Howdy :-)

The new panasonic plasmas are rated at 100,000 hours to half-life... that's about 31 years usage 8h a day. I am sure you won't be attached to your TV that long anyways not would it probably even be compatible with much after that period. I haven't come across any bleeding issues... but my TV is relatively new anyways. I previously had an LCD Aquos 46" which had banding issues, poor contrast and sickly colors. You'll be happy wih a plasma for sure. The new panasonics and Samsungs appear to be using similair panels... 1,000,000:1 DC ratio and 30,000:1 real. Wow, blacks look black. If you decide on plasma, i would recommend a new panasonic PZ8xx series. I play COD4 on mine. Wow, the colors are better in my opinion. You may enjoy how bright an LCD panel is... but... everything is bright on an LCD panel... even pictures of black rooms, outer space and caves. Anyways... i have never been happier with a TV before. My Panasonic PZ750 is awesome. Panasonic will be adding the 46" size for the PZ8xx series.
It will be the best panel u can buy... get the PZ800 in your favorite size. The new panasonic/pioneer plasmas have been rated #1 in 99% of all reviews.

LCD's will always have motion problems and have fewer lines of resolution at higher speeds of motion. Thing about lcd is the picture looks over-exposed usually. color accuracy is more difficult since you have to provide a pure white source then subtract the colors you don't want with filters. Plasma operates much more simply. Anyways... either way... you'll be able to see something on your screen so long as u are happy with it. A video purist will consider a plasma first.

Jeff

[messym]

To add to what MaleManGuy said:

1. I have a plasma from Pioneer and have never, ever heard of bleeding. The advantages of plasmas are that they do not suffer motion blurring and tend have very deep blacks. Plasma issues include image retention if you were to leave a still image on the screen for entended periods of time. By extended I mean several hours. However, some of the newer plasmas specifically Panasonic have pixel rotation which is supposed to all but eliminate image retention/burn in.
2. If you are going to be using your tv for gaming, most people will tell you that LCD is usually the way to go. Especially, if you play for long periods of time. Since games tend to have several still images on screen, (example health bars in action games, on screen player options, etc.) you may suffer from the image retention playing on a plasma.
3. LCD's are known to suffer blurring when fast moving images move across the screen. These blurred images are most common when watching sports, example a baseball being thrown to home plate at 89mph. 120 mhz LCDs are supposed to be better than 60 mhz LCDs in that they reduce blurring by improving screen refresh rates.

The choice between Plasma and LCD is a personal one. I like both types of tvs but chose plasma because I watch movies and liked the picture quality. I also plan on buying an LCD at some point in the future for my 360.

I don't think you will regret either choice no matter which way you choose to go

[child of the sun]

Originally Posted by messym

To add to what MaleManGuy said:

1. I have a plasma from Pioneer and have never, ever heard of bleeding. The advantages of plasmas are that they do not suffer motion blurring and tend have very deep blacks. Plasma issues include image retention if you were to leave a still image on the screen for entended periods of time. By extended I mean several hours. However, some of the newer plasmas specifically Panasonic have pixel rotation which is supposed to all but eliminate image retention/burn in.
2. If you are going to be using your tv for gaming, most people will tell you that LCD is usually the way to go. Especially, if you play for long periods of time. Since games tend to have several still images on screen, (example health bars in action games, on screen player options, etc.) you may suffer from the image retention playing on a plasma.
3. LCD's are known to suffer blurring when fast moving images move across the screen. These blurred images are most common when watching sports, example a baseball being thrown to home plate at 89mph. 120 mhz LCDs are supposed to be better than 60 mhz LCDs in that they reduce blurring by improving screen refresh rates.

The choice between Plasma and LCD is a personal one. I like both types of tvs but chose plasma because I watch movies and liked the picture quality. I also plan on buying an LCD at some point in the future for my 360.

I don't think you will regret either choice no matter which way you choose to go

Reason 2 is the exact reason I went with a LCD vs a Plasma when i got my HD this past Feb.
Re: reason 3 I had that problem (which is refered to as ghosting) when I tweaked the settings on my tv. 1 call to customer service later and I have zero "ghosts" on my tv! I love my LCD especially when watching sports. Basketball and Golf in particular.

[PLASMA-1080P-FULLHD]

Originally Posted by child of the sun

Reason 2 is the exact reason I went with a LCD vs a Plasma when i got my HD this past Feb.
Re: reason 3 I had that problem (which is refered to as ghosting) when I tweaked the settings on my tv. 1 call to customer service later and I have zero "ghosts" on my tv! I love my LCD especially when watching sports. Basketball and Golf in particular.

''



That is not true at all. Plasma fr gaming isnt an issues like people make it to be. I been gaming on my plasma for long time and sometime I play all day long. I have never ever has any problem with it. Again, dont let other people tell whats the best for u. u need to go out and try both technology than u decide if its true or not. otherwise u r really missing out

[MuG]

I own the 37" Vizio LCD and definately love it. Its my bedroom tv, have owned it for over 1 year and not a single problem.. I'm not saying either LCD or Plasma are better but my LCD purchase has left me more than happy.

[JTK]

I've followed this thread with great interest.

Here's where I'm at right now: On the fence.

I've seen both good LCD's and plasmas and bad ones. I admit to having some biases against plasma namely due to a few of the myths and weaknesses of earlier generations.

My sister was able to buy a SOny 40xbr4 LCD on Black Friday for a killer deal and it's an awfully nice set but it does have a few minor and nitpicky issues to my eyes.

For all my fudging, when I've seen good plasmas I've always been impressed with the picture quality.

I can do one of several things: Wait until the Fall and see what Sony's new Xbr6,7, and especially 8's look like on the LCD realm. (Along with comparable LCD's from other brands.)

OR

Consider a Panasonic 800u or 850u series plasma, 50 inches ideally or comparable Pioneer Kuro.

I do game a lot and I am concerned about potential burn in and this idea that "plasmas really shouldn't be used for gaming" and such.

At this point, I'm open minded but I'm still using a 34 inch CRT tube, the Sony KD34xbr960, so that ought to tell you where I'm coming from on all this.

Here's a question:

How am I supposed to perceive what's happening in the industry right now? From my vantage point, and it may not be that great, I feel like I'm seeing the industry clearly move towards LCD and away from plasma. This does not sit well with me if I think about throwing down some big money on a plasma.

What's going on there?

Originally Posted by PLASMA-1080P-FULLHD

''



That is not true at all. Plasma fr gaming isnt an issues like people make it to be. I been gaming on my plasma for long time and sometime I play all day long. I have never ever has any problem with it. Again, dont let other people tell whats the best for u. u need to go out and try both technology than u decide if its true or not. otherwise u r really missing out

^^ This is what it all boils down to. People, including me, need to spend time and SEE it all for themselves.

Originally Posted by messym

To add to what MaleManGuy said:

1. I have a plasma from Pioneer and have never, ever heard of bleeding. The advantages of plasmas are that they do not suffer motion blurring and tend have very deep blacks. Plasma issues include image retention if you were to leave a still image on the screen for entended periods of time. By extended I mean several hours. However, some of the newer plasmas specifically Panasonic have pixel rotation which is supposed to all but eliminate image retention/burn in.
2. If you are going to be using your tv for gaming, most people will tell you that LCD is usually the way to go. Especially, if you play for long periods of time. Since games tend to have several still images on screen, (example health bars in action games, on screen player options, etc.) you may suffer from the image retention playing on a plasma.
3. LCD's are known to suffer blurring when fast moving images move across the screen. These blurred images are most common when watching sports, example a baseball being thrown to home plate at 89mph. 120 mhz LCDs are supposed to be better than 60 mhz LCDs in that they reduce blurring by improving screen refresh rates.

The choice between Plasma and LCD is a personal one. I like both types of tvs but chose plasma because I watch movies and liked the picture quality. I also plan on buying an LCD at some point in the future for my 360.

I don't think you will regret either choice no matter which way you choose to go

^^ This sums it all up for me pretty much.


I'm really trying to get past myths from either side and biases and get down to it. Maybe this post is just me thinking out loud. Back to lurking now...

[GORT]

The Plasma Snobs are out in full force so Smug that they dont want to hear anything that might say another kind of display is as good or better I wonder if they are so Smug they like the smell of there own farts.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by FEP3108

The Plasma Snobs are out in full force so Smug that they dont want to hear anything that might say another kind of display is as good or better I wonder if they are so Smug they like the smell of there own farts.

This wasn't the kind of dialogue I was hoping for.

[BorrowedTime]

Hey JTK,

As you can see from post #66 above, I too was a fence sitter. At the beginning of this month I decided to go with plasma, after much research on this site, over at AVS, and time spent at stores looking at TVs and at a couple of friends houses (2 have LCDs, 1 has a Plasma). I ended up getting the Panasonic TH-42PZ85u, and I couldn't be happier. As noted in the aforementioned post, I do game a lot. Since breaking it in, I've had a couple of long gaming sessions (6 hours at a time each on Pixeljunk Monsters Encore, and Gran Turismo 5: Prologue.) While I did have a little bit of image retention where the pixeljunk logo is at the bottom of my screen, and the lap times on the top right, immediately after the gaming sessions, they were short lived. There hasn't been any "burn-in".

Also, last night, my buddy (one of the LCD owners) was over and we were watching the hockey game (Stanley Cup finals Detroit/Pittsburgh game 1), and he expressed some disappointment about HIS Samsung LCD, after he noticed (or rather the lack of) motion blur on my screen from the fast puck movement. It was something he picked up almost immediately, which made me feel even better about my purchase as I was originally going to go LCD, before some of the forum members here suggested that I not dismiss plasma.

[saprano]

How long is the lamp life between LCD,and Plasma?

[BorrowedTime]

Most LCD and Plasma TV's are rated for 60000h to half brightness (a little over 20 years at 8 hours a day). The new Panasonic Plasmas supposedly are rated at 100000h to half brightness (34 years at 8 hours useage a day)

[JTK]

Originally Posted by BorrowedTime

Hey JTK,

As you can see from post #66 above, I too was a fence sitter. At the beginning of this month I decided to go with plasma, after much research on this site, over at AVS, and time spent at stores looking at TVs and at a couple of friends houses (2 have LCDs, 1 has a Plasma). I ended up getting the Panasonic TH-42PZ85u, and I couldn't be happier. As noted in the aforementioned post, I do game a lot. Since breaking it in, I've had a couple of long gaming sessions (6 hours at a time each on Pixeljunk Monsters Encore, and Gran Turismo 5: Prologue.) While I did have a little bit of image retention where the pixeljunk logo is at the bottom of my screen, and the lap times on the top right, immediately after the gaming sessions, they were short lived. There hasn't been any "burn-in".

Also, last night, my buddy (one of the LCD owners) was over and we were watching the hockey game (Stanley Cup finals Detroit/Pittsburgh game 1), and he expressed some disappointment about HIS Samsung LCD, after he noticed (or rather the lack of) motion blur on my screen from the fast puck movement. It was something he picked up almost immediately, which made me feel even better about my purchase as I was originally going to go LCD, before some of the forum members here suggested that I not dismiss plasma.

Good points. If I were going to go plasma, I suspect my leading choice would be that new Panasonic 850u series, which is what it looks like you bought.


Ok, then let me ask this:

It's my perception that the industy as a whole is moving away from plasma and in favor of LCD.

Am I right or wrong in that perception and why?

Who actually manufacters LCD panels and who manufacters plasma panels that go out to everyone else, respectively?

[dobyblue]

Q4/07 was the highest units moved for plasma ever.
LCD's sell well because most consumers feel that "brighter is better" and LCD's look brighter in store. However to quote Gary Merson:

So why are consumers passing on better performing plasma TVs and spending more money (per inch screen size) for poorer performing large screen LCDs? Because they produce brighter pictures and consumers mistakenly believe “brighter is better.” However, unless one lives in a retail showroom or has set up an ultra-bright, high ambient light viewing environment that mimics a showroom, the HD Guru™ cannot understand why anyone would pay more to buy a top-rated LCD set when a less expensive top-rated plasma set will outperform it while still providing up to three times more light output than necessary in any typical home environment.

JTK - the -850 series aren't out yet, BT bought one from the -85 line which is an excellent set.

The 50" -800 is out, which supports 24fps reproduction at 2:2 pulldown, or 48Hz.

Plasma is still far ahead of LCD on motion resolution and black levels and is moving further ahead all the time. The average LCD set can resolve around 600/1080 lines of motion resolution. The current Panasonic plasma sets are all rated at OVER 900/1080 for motion.

Here are some good reads:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

These are the seven sets tested:

• Samsung HL-T6187S LED DLP RPTV
• Sharp LC-52D64U LCD HDTV
• JVC LT-47X898 LCD HDTV
• Mitsubishi WD-57833 DLP RPTV
• Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD HDTV
• Panasonic TH-50PZ750 Plasma HDTV
• Pioneer PDP-5080HD Plasma HDTV

Now the Pioneer won this match-up, but it was both the Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas that were rated as being in a league of their own over the other sets. You can read all the opinions on the last page of the article. Here are some highlights:

But there was no doubt about it—plasma is king.
~David Birch-Jones

Deep blacks and a viewing angle that allows more than one viewer to watch are big sellers for me, which explains why I was drawn to both the Pioneer and the Panasonic. Go with either, and you'll be happy.
~John Higgins

I kept going back and forth between the two plasmas: Pioneer and Panasonic. I knew they both looked the most natural and pleasing to me, with excellent blacks as well. I couldn't decide which I preferred.
~Maureen Jensen

You can wait for the next generation of LCD's, but the -8 series from Panasonic will best them in just about all areas other than maximum brightness tested in lamberts. However, see again Gary Merson's comments.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Q4/07 was the highest units moved for plasma ever.
LCD's sell well because most consumers feel that "brighter is better" and LCD's look brighter in store. However to quote Gary Merson:



JTK - the -850 series aren't out yet, BT bought one from the -85 line which is an excellent set.

I keep forgetting that extra digit.

The 50" -800 is out, which supports 24fps reproduction at 2:2 pulldown, or 48Hz.

Not native though, correct? the 850u's will be native? I was a little unclear on all that. Both 800u and forthcoming 850u could be native...

Plasma is still far ahead of LCD on motion resolution and black levels and is moving further ahead all the time. The average LCD set can resolve around 600/1080 lines of motion resolution. The current Panasonic plasma sets are all rated at OVER 900/1080 for motion.

Here are some good reads:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

These are the seven sets tested:

• Samsung HL-T6187S LED DLP RPTV
• Sharp LC-52D64U LCD HDTV
• JVC LT-47X898 LCD HDTV
• Mitsubishi WD-57833 DLP RPTV
• Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD HDTV
• Panasonic TH-50PZ750 Plasma HDTV
• Pioneer PDP-5080HD Plasma HDTV

Now the Pioneer won this match-up, but it was both the Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas that were rated as being in a league of their own over the other sets. You can read all the opinions on the last page of the article. Here are some highlights:

But there was no doubt about it—plasma is king.
~David Birch-Jones

Deep blacks and a viewing angle that allows more than one viewer to watch are big sellers for me, which explains why I was drawn to both the Pioneer and the Panasonic. Go with either, and you'll be happy.
~John Higgins

I kept going back and forth between the two plasmas: Pioneer and Panasonic. I knew they both looked the most natural and pleasing to me, with excellent blacks as well. I couldn't decide which I preferred.
~Maureen Jensen

You can wait for the next generation of LCD's, but the -8 series from Panasonic will best them in just about all areas other than maximum brightness tested in lamberts. However, see again Gary Merson's comments.

I'm pouring over all that.

While I do, what sayeth you to these:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/...fx4916183.html

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...080425/151054/




and especially this:

http://www.topnews.in/pioneer-cut-2-...usiness-241397

^^ That doesn't exactly inspire confidence of the cartwheeling in the street variety, does it?

I see talk that the first batch of "9G pioneers" is due out at the end of the month. That'll be interesting...