One of Blu-Rays big advantages

[KC-Technerd]

TDK DURABIS

"In comparison to conventional DVD media, discs incorporating DURABIS technology boast approximately 100 times greater scratch resistance."

"Even after 300 passes by a steel wool pad, a Blu-ray Disc (BD-RE135N) with DURABIS hard coating shows virtually no increase in jitter, attesting to its superior ability to resist scratching."

My understanding is that all Blu-Ray discs will incorporate the TDK Durabis coating, as it's the reason that Blu-Ray discs will not incorporate a caddy, as originally planned.

Sony and the Blu-Ray folks should be shouting this from the rooftops. Why are we are hearing so little about this?

Click on "TDK DURABIS" above for more info.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

...
Sony and the Blu-Ray folks should be shouting this from the rooftops. Why are we are hearing so little about this?

Great question!

[Shadowself]

The reason they are not shouting this as a major marketing pitch is quite simple. If the Blu-ray side claims the disks are as scratch resistant as they seem to be then people will start to abuse them. People will start thinking they are "scratch proof" rather than very "scratch resistant".

People will treat them as if they are "scratch proof" and then claim that the Blu-ray side lied to them about the durability of the disks. This then becomes a marketing nightmare for the Blu-ray side. Not only will people have scratched and damaged disks by treating them improperly you will have the HD-DVD side going around claiming that the Durabis coating is absolutely worthless.

This is no different than Apple never marketing the difference in the number of viruses/trojans/spyware/etc. on the Windows platform versus that on the Mac. Up until recently there have been absolutely zero such items in the wild on the Mac. Recently there have been several proof of concepts and even one single trojan on the Mac (it required the user to actively download it and then input the systems administrator password in order for it to install and try to replicate). Yet the media has gone completely nuts and made completely false claims as to what has been happening with the Mac on the security front.

Now think for a moment what would have happened if Apple had been claiming the Mac was significantly more resistant to viruses/trojans/spyware/etc. The media would have gone 1,000 times more nuts than they did, and they would have made even more false claims about the vulnerabilities of the Mac than they did. Additionally, there would have been lawsuits against Apple when people got viruses/trojans/spyware/etc. fro those people would not understand (or simply not care about) the difference between "many fewer" and "none".

Apple was wise not to make any such claims. The same is true for the Blu-ray team.

The Blu-ray side needs to get these disks out into the public. Then get the *public* talking about what is happening to the HD-DVD disks (scratches, damage, etc.) versus what is NOT happening with the Blu-ray disks.

[JTK]

^^ This person speaketh great truth.

[KC-Technerd]

Shadowself,

I agree to a point. However, IMO, the lack of viruses on the Macintosh platform has been much more due to the lack of interest in those creating viruses (why attack the smaller platform?), than any design feature of Apple computers, or the Macintosh operating systems.

The Durabis coating is strictly a design feature. I believe the durability of CDs back in 1984 and 85 was proclaimed (and marketed) as a great advantage over vinyl LPs. Even though people found various ways to damage and destroy CDs, look at where CDs are now. Of course I realize that Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD is a different story.

I'm sure it needs to be carefully marketed, but some word that Blu-Ray is more durable than either DVD or HD-DVD does need to get out. I've come across many who believe just the opposite, that the thinner coating indicates that Blu-Ray discs will be more delicate than HD-DVD discs.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

Shadowself,

I agree to a point. However, IMO, the lack of viruses on the Macintosh platform has been much more due to the lack of interest in those creating viruses (why attack the smaller platform?), than any design feature of Apple computers, or the Macintosh operating systems.

I'd rather not get into the "security through obscurity debate", but I do have one question.

If Apple computers are not attacked simply because they have a smaller market rather than because they have a better designed OS, then why was there a Microsoft Windows Vista virus in the wild when the OS was out in Beta to only 10,000 testers last year and had been out to those testers for only 10 days?

Surely Apple has more than 10,000 users out there and they've certainly been out them for much more than 10 days -- and still no viruses/spyware and only one limited capability trojan.

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

The Durabis coating is strictly a design feature. I believe the durability of CDs back in 1984 and 85 was proclaimed (and marketed) as a great advantage over vinyl LPs. Even though people found various ways to damage and destroy CDs, look at where CDs are now. Of course I realize that Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD is a different story.

I'm sure it needs to be carefully marketed, but some word that Blu-Ray is more durable than either DVD or HD-DVD does need to get out. I've come across many who believe just the opposite, that the thinner coating indicates that Blu-Ray discs will be more delicate than HD-DVD discs.

I agree it needs to be very carefully marketed. That's my point. It does need to be a marketing point, but it must be done subtly. The Blu-ray team needs to have the users talking about it and make it appear as if it is a "popular knowledge" kind of thing. It can't be proclaimed by the Blu-ray team as a major feature as this can easily backfire on them.

[crazy_neutrino]

DURABIS is a TDK trade, the other blu-ray manufactories would like to have their on hard-coating and not to pay
licence to TDK. Additionally, this coating has not been fully tested for burners, because they (burners) are not yet accessible.
For burning a disc one needs more energy for laser than just for reading one, the behaviour of this hard-coating lacquer under
burning conditions and the optical properties as well are not enough tested to make a big history out of it.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by crazy_neutrino

DURABIS is a TDK trade, the other blu-ray manufactories would like to have their on hard-coating and not to pay
licence to TDK.

My understanding is TDK has already licensed the Durabis coating to all the Blu-ray Disk manufacturers. (I have not heard even a rumor of a manufacturer not including Durabis on their disks.) So while it is a proprietary process of one company, it is effectively the Blu-ray Disk standard. To imply otherwise is FUD.

Originally Posted by crazy_neutrino

Additionally, this coating has not been fully tested for burners, because they (burners) are not yet accessible. For burning a disc one needs more energy for laser than just for reading one, the behaviour of this hard-coating lacquer under burning conditions and the optical properties as well are not enough tested to make a big history out of it.

While there are no burners available to consumers (other than the older cartridge based, massive ones which don't count in this situation) there have been bare disk burners available in the labs for testing for some time. Additionally, prototypes of the burners which will be available to consumers are available for testing. It would shock me if the disks with Durabis coating had not been tested in burners already.

Durabis is a very important part (some might say critical part, some would not) of the durability of Blu-ray disks. It is virtually impossible for me to believe that disks with this coating have not been tested in the labs in all disk versions (read only, write once and write many).

If your claim is that they have not been tested in shipping, consumer machines. Well, no Blu-ray disks have been. There are no shipping consumer machines. (For that matter there are extremely few, shipped HD-DVD machines too. So, if this is the criteria -- i.e., full testing in consumer machines in the hands of consumers, the jury is still out on the durability of HD-DVD disks too.)

[KC-Technerd]

Shadowself,

Are you by chance a Mac owner? I've been a very happy Mac owner since 1996. I'm very glad Apple is in the Blu-ray camp. Will be nice to eventually have a MacBook Pro with a Blu-ray superdrive.

Durabis is a very important part (some might say critical part, some would not) of the durability of Blu-ray disks. It is virtually impossible for me to believe that disks with this coating have not been tested in the labs in all disk versions (read only, write once and write many).

I believe that Durabis may be the only reason that a caddy is not now required for the Blu-ray disc. My understanding is that Sony originally intended the Blu-ray disc to be contained in a caddy, and early versions released in Japan were contained in a caddy.

Thanks for the good discussion.

[crazy_neutrino]

It is not true; TDK cannot impose to all manufacturers to buy their hard-coating lacquer. For blu-ray manufacture there is a specification (provided by Sony against several thousand euro). What kind of materials do you apply, how do you choose the layers it is up to you as
a blu-ray machine producer. You have just to follow the specification.

Concerning the hard-coat properties under different conditions, is a matter of life-time. You cannot test few discs in the labs and state it works. And believe-me, working for a blu-ray machine manufacture in Germany and being a part of a blu-ray project, I had to emphasise this problem since a while.
I ordered a BD-burner (for lab tests as you mentioned) to Panasonic, they sent lots of specifications but no device so far...And I explicitly asked about these tests…They are still backwards…

Best!

[zombie]

My understanding is that TDK's durabis is optional. I do hope that all manufacturers will use it though.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by crazy_neutrino

It is not true; TDK cannot impose to all manufacturers to buy their hard-coating lacquer. For blu-ray manufacture there is a specification (provided by Sony against several thousand euro). What kind of materials do you apply, how do you choose the layers it is up to you as a blu-ray machine producer. You have just to follow the specification.

What I said *IS* true.

Note that I did *not* state that the DURABIS coating is *required* by the specification. I stated rather explicitly that I know of no Blu-ray Disk manufacturer who is not using it. I have not even heard rumors of a disk Blu-ray Disk manufacturer who is not using it.

This does not mean that ALL will use it or that ALL are required to use it. However, in my opinion, anyone who does not use it will almost certainly fail due to an inferior product.

Originally Posted by crazy_neutrino

Concerning the hard-coat properties under different conditions, is a matter of life-time.

EVERYTHING is a matter of lifetime. Vendors also claim a 50 year shelf life on their write once media. Since absolutely no optical disks (whether you are talking about CDs, phase change WORMs, the old "laser disks", DVDs, HD-DVDs, Blu-ray, or any other) have been in use for 50 years. This is an engineering estimate based upon prudent testing.

The same can be said for the DURABIS coating. Will the coating last 50 years? Will it start to delaminate in 35 years? Know one knows for sure? Speculating that TDK and the Blu-ray Disk group is promoting a coating which will not come close to its claims is just that: pure speculation with no basis in fact. However, from what I've read, the coating seems as durable as the name implies.

Originally Posted by crazy_neutrino

You cannot test few discs in the labs and state it works. And believe-me, working for a blu-ray machine manufacture in Germany and being a part of a blu-ray project, I had to emphasise this problem since a while.

True, a few test disks do not *guarantee* anything. Yet, you can test a prudent number of disks and definitively state that it *does work*. You cannot expect any manufacturer to test tens of thousands of disks before declaring that something works. However, all tests about which I've read, state the coating does not negatively impact disk read or read/write performance and that the coating performs as specified. IF you have specific data to counter this, I believe you have a responsibility to get the *details* of that data out to the public. Vague statements will do no one any good. If there are counter example details, let everyone know those details.

Originally Posted by crazy_neutrino

I ordered a BD-burner (for lab tests as you mentioned) to Panasonic, they sent lots of specifications but no device so far...And I explicitly asked about these tests…They are still backwards…

My suggestion is to keep asking: both for a test unit and for the test data -- assuming you have a legitimate right to have access to each. I don't know the details of the rights within the BD group to each other's test data, but it would be of a benefit to the group to share anything that is not of a critical business nature to an individual company.

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by nyg

My understanding is that TDK's durabis is optional. I do hope that all manufacturers will use it though.

This is my understanding as well, but I believe there is some sort of BDA specification that some sort of Durabis coating equivalent is to be used. Again, if Durabis is not to be used, then from my readings, it is up to the specific manufacturer of the disc to use some sort of coating equivalent to Durabis. Although, I think Durabis is the best option IMHO.

There were a good number of articles out about Durabis, touting its durability a couple of months ago, but as of late it appears this has not been on top of the marketing agenda. I do, like some of you too, think, it does need to be promoted as advantage over HD DVD. Moreover, I'd like to see a head to head durability comparison between the two--Blu-ray and HD DVD--especially since HD DVD will NOT be offering any type of extra protection than current DVDs for a disc that holds substantially more data. In my opinion, the current durability of discs is lackluster, making Durabis and its potential all the more appealing.

[hmurchison]

Frankly I don't see how you market this as a strength. It's one thing to market protection that goes above and beyond the native protections already in place but in the case of Blu Ray some sort of protective coating IS required because of the thin protection layer.

I've frankly never scratched a disc to the point where it could be played.