Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

They don't need to shave them; they are already anemic enough. They appear to have found a comfortable balance between low bitrates and quality that is acceptable to their subscribers.

I do not believe that they want to lower their quality. Lowering costs and increasing profits is the desire of every company, but cannibalizing your product is not the way to do it. Gambling with customer satisfaction would not be a smart move.

Not a very high bar to be fair. Acceptance I mean.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

We will have to disagree on that one. About 1-½ years ago Netflix started using AI algorithms to compress their content on a scene by scene basis. IMO, they did this as more powerful computers became available as in Xeon processors with 24 cores. With this kind of horsepower it became practical to do multi-pass compression and use AI to do it. As noted above, we are now seeing the results of this. Some Netflix HD content I have watched in recent times is 2.85 Mbps. Another goal for Netflix is to have good video quality in the Kbps range for mobile use.

I have not taken the measurements that you have and I am not doubting your observations that some, not all, hd streams are using lower bitrates than they had previously.

The real question is has the quality suffered or are these lower bitrate HD streams that you reference the result of better compression methods? If the lower bitrates are simply the result of better compression methods without a corresponding loss in quality, then their customers will not care.

The articles I have found show that 4K streams are delivered at approximately 15-16 Mbps this year as they were last year; no change in this level of streaming. Have you seen in your testing any evidence of 4K streams utilizing lower bitrates than they had previously? When you find these examples of lower bitrates with HD streams are you also noticing a drop in quality?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Not a very high bar to be fair. Acceptance I mean.

The streaming providers only have to satisfy their customers and what satisfies many streaming customers clearly does not satisfy me, or you, but we were never part of their target demographic.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

We will have to disagree on that one. About 1-½ years ago Netflix started using AI algorithms to compress their content on a scene by scene basis. IMO, they did this as more powerful computers became available as in Xeon processors with 24 cores. With this kind of horsepower it became practical to do multi-pass compression and use AI to do it. As noted above, we are now seeing the results of this. Some Netflix HD content I have watched in recent times is 2.85 Mbps. Another goal for Netflix is to have good video quality in the Kbps range for mobile use.

Exciting! Not.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Crazy imo.

If they can lower their costs while retaining their customer satisfaction, i.e. not lowering perceived quality, then they are indeed crazy.

Crazy like a fox.

[The_Donster]

I’m just looking forward to my shoe phone at this point

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The streaming providers only have to satisfy their customers and what satisfies many streaming customers clearly does not satisfy me, or you, but we were never part of their target demographic.

Don’t i know it.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

I’m just looking forward to my shoe phone at this point

Been watching Amazon’s presentation haven't you?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If they can lower their costs while retaining their customer satisfaction, i.e. not lowering perceived quality, then they are indeed crazy.

Crazy like a fox.

Quality has decreased imo.i am seeing more shimmering.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Quality has decreased imo.i am seeing more shimmering.

I don't stream often enough to have much historical perspective here and I admit my bias. I wonder if our members who stream regularly, and have for a long time, are noticing a decrease in quality?

You, me, and Wendell are routinely critical of streaming, so I would like to know if any of its supporters have noticed any declines in quality, especially with HD streams.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Quality has decreased imo.i am seeing more shimmering.

Yes, but to fair you live in another country. Too many unknown variables on what could be affecting your (or anyone else’s abroad) streaming experience compared to replying to someone stateside. You (generalized) get what you pay for when it comes to anything.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Yes, but to fair you live in another country. Too many unknown variables on what could be affecting your (or anyone else’s abroad) streaming experience compared to replying to someone stateside. You (generalized) get what you pay for when it comes to anything.

I have solid as a rock fibre.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I don't stream often enough to have much historical perspective here and I admit my bias. I wonder if our members who stream regularly, and have for a long time, are noticing a decrease in quality?

You, me, and Wendell are routinely critical of streaming, so I would like to know if any of its supporters have noticed any declines in quality, especially with HD streams.

I’ve noticed no dip in quality since my move from Washington State to Texas. I’ve got the family set up on the 2.4 and my equipment is on the 5GHZ.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I have solid as a rock fibre.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The real question is has the quality suffered or are these lower bitrate HD streams that you reference the result of better compression methods? If the lower bitrates are simply the result of better compression methods without a corresponding loss in quality, then their customers will not care.

When talking about providers using lower data rates I have tried to avoid making reference to quality. Without being able to AB two streams it would be meaningless for me to say if a stream is better, the same or worse. IIRC, Netflix used/use test audiences to judge video quality then use that data to set the AI parameters. IMO, the 2.85 Mbps streams do not look that good, OTOH, it looks quite good considering the data rate. In the almost 4 years of using Netflix UHD streams I have not seen any using less than or more than 16 Mbps.

I also have this problem, as long as streaming looks and sounds fair I am OK with it. I do see macro blocking, banding, aliasing, etc. in streams but I just ignore it. When I see it in Blu-ray content I tend to get POed, thank goodness it is fairly rare.

True first hand story. Several years ago I attended a course on the setup, use and maintenance of the leading manufacture’s realtime MPEG-2 encoder. During the course I asked the instructor what method a leading video (>25 million customers) distributor used to set their compression ratio. I was expecting an elaborate test set and procedure but the answer was, “they turn up the compression until the phones start ringing off the hook.” And here we had spent a large sum on a Tektronix computer based MPEG test set.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

See, this is what makes it so hard to have a conservation with you.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Some Netflix HD content I have watched in recent times is 2.85 Mbps. Another goal for Netflix is to have good video quality in the Kbps range for mobile use.

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have not taken the measurements that you have and I am not doubting your observations that some, not all, hd streams are using lower bitrates than they had previously.

The real question is has the quality suffered or are these lower bitrate HD streams that you reference the result of better compression methods? If the lower bitrates are simply the result of better compression methods without a corresponding loss in quality, then their customers will not care.

The articles I have found show that 4K streams are delivered at approximately 15-16 Mbps this year as they were last year; no change in this level of streaming. Have you seen in your testing any evidence of 4K streams utilizing lower bitrates than they had previously? When you find these examples of lower bitrates with HD streams are you also noticing a drop in quality?

I'll have to go along with Vilya, Wendell with your low minimum Bitrates, no wonder your Streaming is so bad. I think my Streaming is more on the 16+Mbps side, because my Quality is great. With Adaptive Streaming if you have the Bandwidth they can keep those Bitrates on the high side.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

See, this is what makes it so hard to have a conservation with you.

Well here’s the deal, you bring it on yourself with these outrageous claims. Saying I’ve git “rock solid fiber” is like me saying “I’ve got the best internet provider!”

[The_Donster]

Alright, for kicks let’s take this from another angle Steedeel. What is your internet/streaming plan, equipment and speeds in your part of the world?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I'll have to go along with Vilya, Wendell with your low minimum Bitrates, no wonder your Streaming is so bad. I think my Streaming is more on the 16+Mbps side, because my Quality is great. With Adaptive Streaming if you have the Bandwidth they can keep those Bitrates on the high side.

You might want to reread his posts from today. The bitrates he has measured are not due to the limitations of his ISP, but instead appear to be the result of aggressive compression on the part of Netflix. Note how he pointed out this is only occurring with some HD streams. He stated that his 4K streams are reliably at 16 Mbps, the most offered by the major streaming providers:

"In the almost 4 years of using Netflix UHD streams I have not seen any using less than or more than 16 Mbps."