Panasonic UB820/UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray player

[jibucha]

my thinking?

• no :: HDR is 'part of UHD', as is Dolby Vision
• to clarify :: HDR 'is not' UHD
• to clarify :: HDR is 'part of' UHD
• UHD is 'correctly' what many 'seem to think' is HDR, which it is not
• HDR :: it's (high dynamic range) and, 'no more'
• UHD :: it's (resolution/wide color gamut/high dynamic range/10-bit depth/and, more)
  

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I thought it was Dolby Vision ... part of HDR?

It doesn't really matter, the new Panasonic players with the Optimizer have beneficial advantages for many viewers. They should be everywhere available and for less.

That's my opinion of course.

[Geoff D]

Hmmm. Without the ability to actually specify the minimum and maximum display luminance levels - I mean a user defined value, not a selection of one of Panasonic's current arbitrary display modes which assume the min/max values of the connected displays - then the Panasonic mapping remains an imperfect solution. A better solution than what some displays have? For sure, I mean projektors need all the help they can get with HDR, and don't just take my word for it: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...9#post16442589

But it's not doing anything "frame by frame", what it's doing is applying a fixed mapping when you first play the content that's freshly generated according to said arbitrary min/max values from the setup menu which are contrasted with the MaxCLL data (if available) that it's receiving from a disc. It then applies a blanket tone map to the image that will let through x amount of information and tone map y amount of information if present in any given scene, nothing "dynamic" is happening at all.

Mierzwiak's mention of Kingsman 2 is a good example of what happens when it doesn't encounter MaxCLL and can only rely on MaxMDL (as Fox discs don't carry CLL information), the 'container' is mastered to 1000 nits and with the Panny set to 'OLED' then it's mapping >1000 nit content only. It can't 'see' any information below that and because his OLED's own internal static mapping is not able to bring back the <1000 nit information either then he has to change the mode on the Panny to the basic LCD 500 nit setting - which would apparently throw all that OLED fine tuning out of the window - or engage the TV's own dynamic tone mapping anyway.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the HDR Optimiser a blunt instrument as it's certainly got a keener edge than some tone mapping methodologies, but without the ability to fine tune the specific level of max display luminance or even just an increased level of granularity e.g. 250-nit steps rather than 500-nit steps (I think OLED should have 750 and 500 options as well) then it's not always going to give the best results from disc to disc. I do appreciate that if one is breathing the rarified air of the 9000 model then you've got further modes available but these are for projektors only, and for specific models at that, so that doesn't really help the average joe/jane with a direct view display.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Why would anyone own a UB820 or UB9000 and not use Panasonic's priority HDR Optimizer?

Dolby does not permit any change to their file so when you have Panasonic's UB820 or UB9000 you would always want to use the SMPTE HDR10.

Some of the advantages UB820 and UB9000 have with the HDR Optimizer properly configured and enabled are an infinite amount of custom tone curves that perfectly follow the EOTF PQ curve and even more importantly are tone mapped to your TV or projectors peak luminance capability.

If that's not enough, because only Panasonic's UB820 and UB9000 also knows your display's minimum luminance level as well as the peak luminance so it knows where to start the tone mapping. Just one example is OLED TV owners where the HDR Optimizer knows you have an OLED so it starts the tone mapping at 0 luminance so you get all of the dynamic range of your HDR content beautifully and completely displayed on your specific TV or projector.

Dolby Vision does not know your displays MLL or peak luminance, only Panasonic's exclusive HDR Optimizer knows how to create the most accurate frame by frame metadata to best match your TV or projector.

I have a Panasonic 420 that is not sold in the US which is a stripped down version of the 820 but features HDR Optimizer.
First, Imust say that compared to the Sony X-800, which I still own as I need it as a SACD player, the inexpensive Panasonic 420 looks much better than the X-800 even if both are set to output 4:4:4 12 bit video without using HDR Optimizer. Panasonic's HDR Optimizer is the icing of the cake with my inexpensive Samsung set that can output around 700 nits.
If I understand what you're saying right a Panasonic with the HDR Optimizer on does a handshake via HDMI with the TV set to get to know its display capabilities and do a proper tone mapping. Is that right?

[DJR662]

Lol how many times are you going to say the Panasonic is "much better" than the X800?

[sapiendut]

Uhmmmm because it is?

[LordoftheRings]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLO...ature=youtu.be

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by eddievanhalen

I have a Panasonic 420 that is not sold in the US which is a stripped down version of the 820 but features HDR Optimizer.
First, Imust say that compared to the Sony X-800, which I still own as I need it as a SACD player, the inexpensive Panasonic 420 looks much better than the X-800 even if both are set to output 4:4:4 12 bit video without using HDR Optimizer. Panasonic's HDR Optimizer is the icing of the cake with my inexpensive Samsung set that can output around 700 nits.
If I understand what you're saying right a Panasonic with the HDR Optimizer on does a handshake via HDMI with the TV set to get to know its display capabilities and do a proper tone mapping. Is that right?

Why is there is a TV mode selection in the HDR setup menu at all if the player just detects it from the EDID information it receives from the TV? I think we're getting into serious pie in the sky territory here, next we'll be told that the Optimiser can cure cancer and solve world hunger.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Hmmm. Without the ability to actually specify the minimum and maximum display luminance levels - I mean a user defined value, not a selection of one of Panasonic's current arbitrary display modes which assume the min/max values of the connected displays - then the Panasonic mapping remains an imperfect solution. A better solution than what some displays have? For sure, I mean projektors need all the help they can get with HDR, and don't just take my word for it: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...9#post16442589

But it's not doing anything "frame by frame", what it's doing is applying a fixed mapping when you first play the content that's freshly generated according to said arbitrary min/max values from the setup menu which are contrasted with the MaxCLL data (if available) that it's receiving from a disc. It then applies a blanket tone map to the image that will let through x amount of information and tone map y amount of information if present in any given scene, nothing "dynamic" is happening at all.

Mierzwiak's mention of Kingsman 2 is a good example of what happens when it doesn't encounter MaxCLL and can only rely on MaxMDL (as Fox discs don't carry CLL information), the 'container' is mastered to 1000 nits and with the Panny set to 'OLED' then it's mapping >1000 nit content only. It can't 'see' any information below that and because his OLED's own internal static mapping is not able to bring back the <1000 nit information either then he has to change the mode on the Panny to the basic LCD 500 nit setting - which would apparently throw all that OLED fine tuning out of the window - or engage the TV's own dynamic tone mapping anyway.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the HDR Optimiser a blunt instrument as it's certainly got a keener edge than some tone mapping methodologies, but without the ability to fine tune the specific level of max display luminance or even just an increased level of granularity e.g. 250-nit steps rather than 500-nit steps (I think OLED should have 750 and 500 options as well) then it's not always going to give the best results from disc to disc. I do appreciate that if one is breathing the rarified air of the 9000 model then you've got further modes available but these are for projektors only, and for specific models at that, so that doesn't really help the average joe/jane with a direct view display.

Again using the OLED setting on Panasonic's HDR Optimizer the player's processing will use 0 luminance as the MLL and 1,000 Nits as the peak luminance HDR dynamic range and tone map to those values. This exclusive feature mimics OLED TVs for the past several years very very well. And it's a great way to pass along the tone mapped HDR content for your specific OLED TV to just use all of the range from the 0 Nit starting point to then just roll off the highest peak luminance areas of each frame from 1,000 nits to whatever your OLED can reach, which is typically 700+ Nits. A far more accurate rendition of the original HDR mastered content than possible without the HDR Optimizer.

This feature is most helpful in projection systems and other than my own personal evaluations and that of the many dozens of projector owners I have worked with on setting up their projection systems you can listen to Kris Deering when he presented at my JVC NX9/Panasonic UB9000 press and consumer demo event. His remarks start at the 1.48 minute mark and end at the 3.09 minute position. Kris clearly says the use of Panasonic UB9000 in this projection system give the viewer the perception of a how a flat panel's looks with HDR content.

https://youtu.be/aGLEY_g7M64?t=108

Sorry to respectfully disagree again, but I believe Panasonic's HDR Optimizer is delivering dynamic HDR metadata to the connected display.

Owners of the UB420, UB820 and UB9000 can select the 500 Nit tone mapping setting for an OLED TV if they like and the UB9000 can be set to tone map to 350 Nits.

When MaxCLL is not included in the metadata the HDR Optimizer uses 1,000 Nits for peak and if its an OLED TV the minimum luminance level it uses is 0 Nits.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

Uhmmmm because it is?

I have yet to do a comparison between the two myself (UHD without the Optimizer or regular Blu-ray), but I am having a hard time believing it would make such a difference.

I'm not a believer of huge differences in picture quality between players unless there was some sort of undefeatable processing going on in the background.

I'm happy to be proven wrong though.

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks for having an open mind to this and testing this feature in your own system.

If you have the UB420, UB820 or UB9000 you can toggle the HDR Optimizer on/off. To bring up the HDR Optimizer sub menu just press and hold the "HDR Settings" button until the HDR Optimizer on/off selection comes up. Then on the fly check out the HDR image by switching the HDR Optimizer on and off with several scenes and a various titles.

Please report back your findings.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Hmmm. Without the ability to actually specify the minimum and maximum display luminance levels - I mean a user defined value, not a selection of one of Panasonic's current arbitrary display modes which assume the min/max values of the connected displays - then the Panasonic mapping remains an imperfect solution. A better solution than what some displays have? For sure, I mean projektors need all the help they can get with HDR, and don't just take my word for it: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...9#post16442589

But it's not doing anything "frame by frame", what it's doing is applying a fixed mapping when you first play the content that's freshly generated according to said arbitrary min/max values from the setup menu which are contrasted with the MaxCLL data (if available) that it's receiving from a disc. It then applies a blanket tone map to the image that will let through x amount of information and tone map y amount of information if present in any given scene, nothing "dynamic" is happening at all.

Mierzwiak's mention of Kingsman 2 is a good example of what happens when it doesn't encounter MaxCLL and can only rely on MaxMDL (as Fox discs don't carry CLL information), the 'container' is mastered to 1000 nits and with the Panny set to 'OLED' then it's mapping >1000 nit content only. It can't 'see' any information below that and because his OLED's own internal static mapping is not able to bring back the <1000 nit information either then he has to change the mode on the Panny to the basic LCD 500 nit setting - which would apparently throw all that OLED fine tuning out of the window - or engage the TV's own dynamic tone mapping anyway.

I wouldn't go so far as to call the HDR Optimiser a blunt instrument as it's certainly got a keener edge than some tone mapping methodologies, but without the ability to fine tune the specific level of max display luminance or even just an increased level of granularity e.g. 250-nit steps rather than 500-nit steps (I think OLED should have 750 and 500 options as well) then it's not always going to give the best results from disc to disc. I do appreciate that if one is breathing the rarified air of the 9000 model then you've got further modes available but these are for projektors only, and for specific models at that, so that doesn't really help the average joe/jane with a direct view display.

I think something like MadVr or Lumagen's dynamic ability is going to be closer to the ultimate solution for a projector. The ability to really customize to your set-up and brightness. I've been really pleased with the 820 and haven't encountered any "weirdness" or obvious clipping on a disc yet like I did with the UB900 or Arve curves. But I'm sure improvement potential exists at least at times and certain scenes, etc. But I really like what I've been seeing. However, it seems like almost every projector owner I know using MadVr says it's the best. Curious to see what Envy will offer and at what price (I am not touching a HTPC).

But damn, Stacey is still using a 1080 DLP projector?! Ugh. Not much hope for anything on that poor low contrast thing. I do agree that HDR on projectors have been rather poor, but JVC took a good step forward on the latest 4K units, but I think something external (820, MadVr, Lumagen) is going to give every projector owner better results at this point.

I would like to hear Kris Deering's feedback on this if he's reading.

He's got a great room and has tested a lot of the newest higher end projectors as of late. From what I heard about at the recent Sony-JVC projector shootout, people were truly shocked at how little nits were on the set-up given how good things looked.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Again using the OLED setting on Panasonic's HDR Optimizer the player's processing will use 0 luminance as the MLL and 1,000 Nits as the peak luminance HDR dynamic range and tone map to those values. This exclusive feature mimics OLED TVs for the past several years very very well. And it's a great way to pass along the tone mapped HDR content for your specific OLED TV to just use all of the range from the 0 Nit starting point to then just roll off the highest peak luminance areas of each frame from 1,000 nits to whatever your OLED can reach, which is typically 700+ Nits. A far more accurate rendition of the original HDR mastered content than possible without the HDR Optimizer.

This feature is most helpful in projection systems and other than my own personal evaluations and that of the many dozens of projector owners I have worked with on setting up their projection systems you can listen to Kris Deering when he presented at my JVC NX9/Panasonic UB9000 press and consumer demo event. His remarks start at the 1.48 minute mark and end at the 3.09 minute position. Kris clearly says the use of Panasonic UB9000 in this projection system give the viewer the perception of a how a flat panel's looks with HDR content. https://youtu.be/aGLEY_g7M64?t=108

Sorry to respectfully disagree again, but I believe Panasonic's HDR Optimizer is delivering dynamic HDR metadata to the connected display.

Owners of the UB420, UB820 and UB9000 can select the 500 Nit tone mapping setting for an OLED TV if they like and the UB9000 can be set to tone map to 350 Nits.

When MaxCLL is not included in the metadata the HDR Optimizer uses 1,000 Nits for peak and if its an OLED TV the minimum luminance level it uses is 0 Nits.

But how will it know it's connected to an OLED TV if you change the selection mode to 500 nit 'Basic LCD'?

It's passing along rejigged STATIC metadata to the display, not dynamic metadata. It's doing nothing dynamic in any way, shape or form. It's not analysing the content in real time like the aforemetioned Lumagen goodies, it's simply reading the incoming MaxCLL data and offsetting it against whatever level of output has been specified in the menu, e.g. if it's set to 500 and the MaxCLL reads as 1000 then it will apply a custom tone map to the image that passes through anything below 500 nit and tone maps the rest.

But this method lacks nuance nonetheless as it's assuming that the metadata is correct in the first place, the MaxCLL can be for something as small as a pixel and can lead to the Optimiser mapping things down that don't need to be mapped down. It's good but it's not psychic, and the same applies if there's no CLL data whatsoever. Obviously devices that are well below 1000 nits will still benefit from the assumed 1000 nit level in those instances, but those gains start to be lost the higher up the chain you go.

I'm not saying that this method (and indeed the first Panny UHD players) isn't a godsend for projektor owners and people with TVs that have very poor HDR performance - which is linked to iffy in-house mapping as much as the actual real world capabilities of the TV itself - but its use for me has been extremely limited and the way it can exaggerate posterisation is also something of a turn off.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

So just for example, using a modern OLED TV that is capable of producing perfect black and go up to 840 Nits the HDR Optimizer will start the PQ at the exact reported MLL and perfectly rebuild the HDR PQ curve up to 1,000 Nits. In many cases the MLL meta data is 0 Nits.

Thank you for your responses Robert, but with all due respect, it looks to me like you're "selling" beautiful theory, but that's not how Optimizer behave, at least on my TV It probably is much more useful for low-nit LCDs and projectors owners, but from what I see, with "OLED" setting, it doesn't rebuild entire HDR PQ curve from 0. It clearly works only from specific level which can be observed in movies I mentioned earlier (mastered up to 4000 nits and higher like Fury Road or Batman v Superman) or not observed at all like on all the discs mastered for 1000 nits. It changes highlights and only highlights, nothing else. What you're describing here is done indeed, but by LG's Dynamic Tone Mapping!

Regarding logos showing elevated blacks, please consider that the actual HDR PQ does not typically start until the movie starts. Much if not all of the previews, opening logos and menus are in SDR.

But I was talking about MOVIE. At the beginning of Batman v Superman (movie, not disc / menu) there's Warner Bros logo on black background; the black is elevated and Optimiser does absolutely nothing here. The same for Interstellar - it helps with highlights (that are above 1000 nits, that's why Optimiser works in that film) but milky blacks stays the same.

[Waboman]

So the optimizer isn’t as great as sliced bread? If I have a Sony tv will I benefit from the Panny? Or is this geared more towards projectors? I was all gung ho for this. Might look at the LX500 or just keep my Oppo. I dunno.

[sapiendut]

it really depends on which TV you are watching it on. But even with Z9 you still can see a slight advantage while using 820 (well, I saw this in action on my client's Z9 and UB9000).

Essentially, the lower nits your display tech, the more you'll see the benefit.

If you use an high nits LCD and OLED, you can just use LX500's HDR optimizer function. With projector, the LX500 HDR optimizer function doesn't help much. (tested using Sony 365ES projector)

[cjake]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Sorry to respectfully disagree again, but I believe Panasonic's HDR Optimizer is delivering dynamic HDR metadata to the connected display.

It does not. It will modify the MaxDML and MaxCLL values to reflect the tone mapping it performs based on the HDR Display Type selected. But the modified values are static and do not change during playback.

Anyone with an HDfury device that reports HDR metadata value changes in real time can attest that this is true.

[nick4Knight]

Okay so I am totally not sure who to trust, and with respect to Robert I don't have at my disposal all the necessary options of equipment to test out what he's saying. Most average user on here would not...

But whats clear is there's a calibrator (to my mind most qualified to talk to all possibilities...) saying for stuff like OLED to use the 820 optimizer and use the LG's active tone mapping -assuming this pertains just to HDR10 content- in conjunction for best HDR results. Not just one. And not disregard DV metadata for that content, even with Panny's.

[evoll]

I agree what some others have posted, with dynamic tone mapping off on my oled and optimizer on with 1000 nit movies I see no difference but with 4000 nits and above I see a good amount of the bright highlights back in the picture. I do not see any big changes in the black levels except when I enable d.t.m on my oled. I could play around with the other optimizer settings to highlight whites etc but I am not doing that for every movie so I just enable the optimizer.

[Cortiz]

Originally Posted by Waboman

So the optimizer isn’t as great as sliced bread? If I have a Sony tv will I benefit from the Panny? Or is this geared more towards projectors? I was all gung ho for this. Might look at the LX500 or just keep my Oppo. I dunno.

Keep your Oppo. That is still my main player, I had the Panny 820 for a while and PQ, at least on my Sony OLED, is identical.

[WutDaFunk]

Originally Posted by evoll

I agree what some others have posted, with dynamic tone mapping off on my oled and optimizer on with 1000 nit movies I see no difference but with 4000 nits and above I see a good amount of the bright highlights back in the picture. I do not see any big changes in the black levels except when I enable d.t.m on my oled. I could play around with the other optimizer settings to highlight whites etc but I am not doing that for every movie so I just enable the optimizer.

Just to clarify, when you say DTM affects blacks do you mean it gets crushed, or raised?