Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga 4K UHD (1977-2019)

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by MalteseCrow

I also own an older 1080p projector (Epson 5020UB) and was wondering about this. Perhaps you (or another poster) can drop a little technical knowledge on me. I have the means to play 4K, but every time I do, the image looks washed out and in fact the absolute opposite of what you'd expect on a 4K display with HDR; in other words, the antithesis to deep blacks, great contrast, vibrant colors.

The resolution is much improved, but without the colors, it's a pretty drab viewing experience, especially compared with a good, remastered 1080p blu-ray.

I'm assuming this is because the 4K disc is sending an HDR signal that my 1080p projector either can't decipher or deciphers wrongly, like asking someone who's fluent in French to translate Spanish for you.

Are there actual color profile settings I can change on my projector to present a less desaturated image? Is there anyway to 'turn off' the HDR on the 4K disc to just play as SDR instead? Is anyone familiar enough with the Epson in particular or projectors in general to suggest a method that might work?

Truly wish I had an easy answer for you. It's a huuuge can of worms that can be summarized by the statement: I have individualized gamma and color settings for each and every UHD I own, in order for them to look good. But once the adjustment is made, they look GREAT.

Basically, I have an Oppo 203 which is making the resolution conversion (2160 to 1080), the color space / gamma conversion (to Rec 709) and the HDR-to-SDR conversion. That's all in the player, NOT the projector. And even those parameters vary from title to title. For a Skywalker example, I set the Oppo HDR-to-SDR conversion to "200 nits" for Episodes I-VI, and "300 nits" for Episodes VI-IX. Then, when this signal arrives at my trusty Panasonic PT-AE4000 (from 2010!), I use my skills as a professional cinematographer and the projector's built-in waveform monitor to raise the whitest white levels ("Contrast") up to 100 IRE and lower the blackest blacks ("Brightness") to 0 IRE, and then manipulate the lower end of the gamma WITHOUT washing out the image, to dig out extra information, since the HDR images tend to be darker than desirable.

And that pretty much does it. But these settings are RADICALLY different from title to title. I think if you look at my Blu-ray.com 4K collection you can see the "comments" field, where I record the different settings I make for each and every movie.

It's a process, but I actually enjoy it... and the movies end up looking MUCH better from their respective UHDs than they do from the Blu-rays (in most cases... I never did get FIELD OF DREAMS to convert well; its the one title that got away, lol)

Anyhoo... Best of luck. May the Force be with you.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by MalteseCrow

I also own an older 1080p projector (Epson 5020UB) and was wondering about this. Perhaps you (or another poster) can drop a little technical knowledge on me. I have the means to play 4K, but every time I do, the image looks washed out and in fact the absolute opposite of what you'd expect on a 4K display with HDR; in other words, the antithesis to deep blacks, great contrast, vibrant colors.

The resolution is much improved, but without the colors, it's a pretty drab viewing experience, especially compared with a good, remastered 1080p blu-ray.

I'm assuming this is because the 4K disc is sending an HDR signal that my 1080p projector either can't decipher or deciphers wrongly, like asking someone who's fluent in French to translate Spanish for you.

Are there actual color profile settings I can change on my projector to present a less desaturated image? Is there anyway to 'turn off' the HDR on the 4K disc to just play as SDR instead? Is anyone familiar enough with the Epson in particular or projectors in general to suggest a method that might work?

I used to play my UHD's on a JVC RS400 projector. It was still beautiful but don't expect anything resembling an actual UHD since it's downgrading to 1080p, no WCG, HDR, etc. In my case I had what they called eshift which was a fake 4k, so there was a slight advantage where I could still use a BT2020 colour profile, but I think you're shit out of luck. Maybe someone knows something more than me on your particular projector though.

[MalteseCrow]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Truly wish I had an easy answer for you. It's a huuuge can of worms that can be summarized by the statement: I have individualized gamma and color settings for each and every UHD I own, in order for them to look good. But once the adjustment is made, they look GREAT.

Thanks for the info. I never would have thought to change the settings on the player first! Wish I could just make the upgrade to a 4K projector so I didn't have to keep changing settings, but alas that's not in the budget for the foreseeable future. And anyway, if there's a series of movies worth the added effort, it's these.

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by MalteseCrow

I also own an older 1080p projector (Epson 5020UB) and was wondering about this. Perhaps you (or another poster) can drop a little technical knowledge on me. I have the means to play 4K, but every time I do, the image looks washed out and in fact the absolute opposite of what you'd expect on a 4K display with HDR; in other words, the antithesis to deep blacks, great contrast, vibrant colors.

The resolution is much improved, but without the colors, it's a pretty drab viewing experience, especially compared with a good, remastered 1080p blu-ray.

I'm assuming this is because the 4K disc is sending an HDR signal that my 1080p projector either can't decipher or deciphers wrongly, like asking someone who's fluent in French to translate Spanish for you.

Are there actual color profile settings I can change on my projector to present a less desaturated image? Is there anyway to 'turn off' the HDR on the 4K disc to just play as SDR instead? Is anyone familiar enough with the Epson in particular or projectors in general to suggest a method that might work?

There are 4 options for you to continue using that projector Which actually HAS the Dcip3 color space, the same color space used on all UHD releases currently...

The problem is the projector is expecting an SDR signal.

Option1: you need a 4K player that has an option to MAP HDR signal to a device that Expects an SDR signal. This is the cheapest route. I believe many Sony players have this feature. < to be clear, people misunderstand this often, HDR mapped to SDR IS STILL HDR, it is NOT SDR.

Option2: A Lumagen, which does the same thing but much better than the Sony player, but expensive $$$$$$

Option3: Madvr ENVY, not yet public, but soon, even better than Lumagen, also $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Finally, the Illegal option, an HTPC w/ Madvr freeware and at minimum spec 1070gtx GPU, This option is arguably the Best quality equal to that of Madvr Envy and much cheaper, HOWEVER, if you take into account how it works, It's ILLEGAL...

[Geoff D]

Every player has SDR conversion. Some are just way better at it than others. What I don't understand is why, if matey's projektor is SDR only, the player is sending out an HDR signal as the EDID would shirley tell it to output SDR?

[gates70]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Every player has SDR conversion. Some are just way better at it than others. What I don't understand is why, if matey's projektor is SDR only, the player is sending out an HDR signal as the EDID would shirley tell it to output SDR?

Yup...

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Every player has SDR conversion. Some are just way better at it than others. What I don't understand is why, if matey's projektor is SDR only, the player is sending out an HDR signal as the EDID would shirley tell it to output SDR?

Ok , so the display device accepts an input signal range 0-255, or 16-235

The Projector's Performance range is Fixed regardless of what the signal is, for example P3 gamut color space, and 80 real nits projector (most $5000 projectors).

HDR is just a set of signals in the rec2020 container using the P3 Gamut using an input range of 1024 values instead of 256.

So now the player will distribute the 1024 values into the container of 256 values. You actually get the same image in the digital sense, (not in the perceptual sense).

The reason some players/ devices/ lumagen/madvrEnvy does this process better than something else, is the transformation is non-linear.

0 represents 0 on both scales, and 255 represents 1023, However, the in between values are different.

The SDR follows a relative (brightness) tone curve, the HDR follows an absolute tone curve. In order to map them, the Player has to know the tone curve target, and its brightness target, depending on the device, it may or may not have the smarts to do this as well as other devices which cost more. There also has to be another layer of Special-Sauce tweaking which preserves creator's intent on the mapping of dissimilar outputs-intents.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by kmkm

Ok , so the display device accepts an input signal range 0-255, or 16-235

The Projector's Performance range is Fixed regardless of what the signal is, for example P3 gamut color space, and 80 real nits projector (most $5000 projectors).

HDR is just a set of signals in the rec2020 container using the P3 Gamut using an input range of 1024 values instead of 256.

So now the player will distribute the 1024 values into the container of 256 values. You actually get the same image in the digital sense, (not in the perceptual sense).

The reason some players/ devices/ lumagen/madvrEnvy does this process better than something else, is the transformation is non-linear.

0 represents 0 on both scales, and 255 represents 1023, However, the in between values are different.

The SDR follows a relative (brightness) tone curve, the HDR follows an absolute tone curve. In order to map them, the Player has to know the tone curve target, and its brightness target, depending on the device, it may or may not have the smarts to do this as well as other devices which cost more.

At the end of it all after spending money it's still just going to be 1080p with no real advances towards UHD. I had that projector and as nice as it was, I doubt he'll get his money's worth if he goes overboard with the spending.

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by gates70

At the end of it all after spending money it's still just going to be 1080p. I had that projector and as nice as it was, I doubt he'll get his money's worth if he goes overboard with the spending.

That's a valid concern, but in most cases 4K isn't that big a boost on projectors vs TVs, so it's less important. This is unique to projectors because of low ansi-contrast. It wouldn't be true on Oled/VA television.

And even with 4K downsampled, you still get full 1080p color resolution vs 540p on standard bluray. This boosts texture quality, so it's full 1080p vs butchered 1080p on (regular blurays).

[gates70]

Originally Posted by kmkm

That's a valid concern, but in most cases 4K isn't that big a boost on projectors vs TVs, so it's less important. This is unique to projectors because of low ansi-contrast. It wouldn't be true on Oled/VA television.

And even with 4K downsampled, you still get full 1080p color resolution vs 540p on standard bluray. This boosts texture quality, so it's full 1080p vs butchered 1080p.

Like I said, I had that projector and I doubt he'd get his money's worth. It's starting to be pretty old too.

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by gates70

Like I said, I had that projector and I doubt he'd get his money's worth. It's starting to be pretty old too.

Mmm.. in my experience with projectors, investment in the Projector-ROOM makes a much bigger difference than a better projector. Better projectors can't really overcome room-physics. and a $1000 projector can beat a $20,000 projector, if the $1000 projector is in a blacked out room vs $20,000 pj in a white room.

As for the investment in a tonemapping box. I'd say it's worth it because it works equally well to enhance any projector you plug it into.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by kmkm

Mmm.. in my experience with projectors, investment in the Projector-ROOM makes a much bigger difference than a better projector. Better projectors can't really overcome room-physics. and a $1000 projector can beat a $20,000 projector, if the $1000 projector is in a blacked out room vs $20,000 pj in a white room.

Who's talking about the room? We're talking in general since we don't even know his room.

It enhances it to a certain degree. Lets not pretend it turns a Volkswagen Beatle into a Ferrari.

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by gates70

Who's talking about the room? We're talking in general since we don't even know his room.

Well, yea, I'm saying, in general, a tonemapping box, is worth it regardless of everything else, because it's the only way to get remotely good projector performance with HDR.

But if you're saying, well, HDR will look kinda crummy on Projectors period. That's also true, because HDR color grades is simply not done on or made for Projectors.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by kmkm

Well, yea, I'm saying, in general, a tonemapping box, is worth it regardless of everything else, because it's the only way to get remotely good projector performance with HDR.

But if you're saying, well, HDR will look kinda crummy on Projectors period. That's also true, because HDR color grades is simply not done on or made for Projectors.

He's not going to get HDR period, even with a box.

Well, that's no longer true. Used to be years ago. My projector wipes the floor with a lot of sets.

[shane01]

I'd even take a version of Episode I that matches the theatrical cut of the pod race sequence on the first bonus disc. It looks like a normal freaking movie!

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by gates70

He's not going to get HDR period, even with a box.

Well, that's no longer true. Used to be years ago. My projector wipes the floor with a lot of sets.

He's going to get HDR as long as it's tonemapped. HDR is not some hard figure, as long as you've got the tonemapping, it's HDR. and HE CAN get it working IN HDR on that Epson.

As for your projector wiping floors against TVs, mmmm.. you're entitled to that opinion based on your own subjective assertions of what constitutes good image quality.

However it must be said, in the strict sense as determined by light Physics and creator's intent, a $100 TV will outperform ANY projector on the market of Any price..

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by shane01

I'd even take a version of Episode I that matches the theatrical cut of the pod race sequence on the first bonus disc. It looks like a normal freaking movie!

ugh. i feel like TPM is a lost cause, it's either pretend it never happened, or be disappointed each and every time.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by MalteseCrow

I also own an older 1080p projector (Epson 5020UB) and was wondering about this. Perhaps you (or another poster) can drop a little technical knowledge on me. I have the means to play 4K, but every time I do, the image looks washed out and in fact the absolute opposite of what you'd expect on a 4K display with HDR; in other words, the antithesis to deep blacks, great contrast, vibrant colors.

The resolution is much improved, but without the colors, it's a pretty drab viewing experience, especially compared with a good, remastered 1080p blu-ray.

I'm assuming this is because the 4K disc is sending an HDR signal that my 1080p projector either can't decipher or deciphers wrongly, like asking someone who's fluent in French to translate Spanish for you.

Are there actual color profile settings I can change on my projector to present a less desaturated image? Is there anyway to 'turn off' the HDR on the 4K disc to just play as SDR instead? Is anyone familiar enough with the Epson in particular or projectors in general to suggest a method that might work?

Your best option is to get a 4K disc player that has good HDR -> SDR conversion. Right now that one is probably the Panasonic 820 player. It’s pricey for a player but its worth it imo. Otherwise, it might be time to upgrade your projector. But either way, unless you upgrade to one of the new JVC projectors, that player is still going to beat the tone mapping of all other projectors, even if they support HDR. Tone mapping is probably the most important image processing aspect in 4K/HDR, especially in projectors since their lack of brightness compared to flat panel displays is considerably lower, and most 4K discs’ brightness exceed what projectors can render.

So I can think your current player is converting to SDR but it doesn’t sound like it’s good at doing it.

[kmkm]

Originally Posted by samlop10

So I can think your current player is converting to SDR but it doesn’t sound like it’s good at doing it.

He mentioned it looks washed out, that can't be converted, because he has p3 gamut on that epson. there's no reason a conversion to sdr would look washed out if it was actually tonemapped (at all).

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by kmkm

He mentioned it looks washed out, that can't be converted, because he has p3 gamut on that epson. there's no reason a conversion to sdr would look washed out if it was actually tonemapped (at all).

If the tone mapping is bad, then yes, it can definitely look washed out. That’s actually been a very common problem with poor tone mapping through players when people try to play HDR content on SDR displays. The player converts it to SDR but it does a poor job, so it looks washed out.

HDR and color gamut are two separate things. In fact, you can do SDR/.2020 which gives you SDR with wider color, and you can do SDR/.709 which gives you SDR with standard blu-ray color gamut.

So even if the projector supports P3 (which, tbh, I’m not even sure that it does), it would still need to be converted to SDR since it does not accept HDR (the oldest projector in that line of models that supports HDR is the 5040).

I have the Panasonic 820 and the Oppo 203. They both give you options to convert to SDR/.2020 and SDR/.709. Unless his player gives him those options, it’s likely doing HDR/.2020 -> SDR/.709, and by the sounds of it, doing a poor job at it.