"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[Jeff Kleist]

...this screams of hyperbole and vindictiveness, the type of "we do no wrong and the enemy is evil" rhetoric that often clouds any discourse. There aren't "HD DVD" people, or "Red Ants", there are those that supported (or at least co-supported) a competing format. I neither believe without clear evidence that things are as nefarious as you describe , nor do I believe that if this =is= the case it was unique to one side over another. I'd certainly not see you as an objective, dispasionate arbiter about what their motivations were given this type of claim.

I'm talking about people directly employed by HD DVD to spread misinformation, viral marketing types who then used willing patsies like Lee Stewart and the rest of the usual suspects to spread their FUD when they knew they couldn't get away with posting it themselves. There are several prolific HD DVD related posters that have been all traced back to geographically neighboring IP blocks ('m not going to name names because I can't prove it for sure), like the person in question had a cell phone, and a cable and DSL accounts all going into the same area with remarkably similar writing styles, who often showed up to agree with each other in the same locations. And there were a lot of them. The whole "red ant" thing (which I believe Penton coined)came from the fact that whenever an infidel would show up, or bad news for HD DVD emerged they would swarm by the dozens, devouring the subject down to the bone

Trust me, the Blu-ray side was not that organized or that vindictive That's why people like Paid and Penton were essentially here pro-bono. It took people like Max working really hard to get any kind of organized resistance going. It really wasn't till the end that any dirty tricks were pulled on the HD DVD camp, and then they were tasteful, gotcha, behind closed door stuff.

Anyone remember the president of Toshiba's plane landing in Vegas for CES, gassing up and turning right around? There's a good example of the end game of some of that

Look, I've got no idea what misinformation was spread, and if some of it was, and was done malicioiusly, then I understand your frustration (and even share it). But this type of name calling ("Liars!", "Fools!") is counterproductive, and comes across, respecfully, as petty.

I don't use euphamisms for liars. I don't condone whitewashing no matter what the source. If someone lies, as Amir was proven to be time and again as the head of "HD DVD Evangelism" (actual job title), he's going to get called a liar. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Suffice to say, I have enough sources, many of which were in the HD DVD camp at the time to have a really good idea of the big picture, and I stand by what I say.

And that's all I have to say about that

(first one to post the appropriate picture gets a cookie)

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

as Amir was proven to be time and again as the head of "HD DVD Evangelism" (actual job title)

Wasn't that Kevin Collins job title, and not Amir's?

~Alan

[Jeff Kleist]

Kevin inherited the job after Amir's "retirement"

[sharkshark]

...curious, Jeff, what were the reasons you picked Blu as the obvious winner, when did you make that call, when did you learn about these activities by the so-called "ants", and how long was it before the 'Bits made their preference public? Did you make the call before Bill made up his mind?

Maybe this is better in your own thread, but what can I say, this is the only place over here that I visit... The wine's better in this room...

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

...curious, Jeff, what were the reasons you picked Blu as the obvious winner, when did you make that call, when did you learn about these activities by the so-called "ants", and how long was it before the 'Bits made their preference public? Did you make the call before Bill made up his mind?

Maybe this is better in your own thread, but what can I say, this is the only place over here that I visit... The wine's better in this room...

I made the call in 2005.

I remember "pestering" Bill at ComicCon 2006 after the Bits' panel with an impassioned plea why BD was the way to go, because at that point he had commented on HD DVD's better launch than what the BDA had done up to that point (which was pretty weak, sputtering out of the gate). (Interestingly we also talked with a couple BDA reps there...did you know The Davinci Code was supposed to be the first BD50?) As far as the format war went Bill was fair and balanced, and listened to every side. He gave Toshiba & company the benefit of the doubt and didn't pull any punches when BD failed to impress.

[Doctorossi]

Interesting concept, Jeff, 'tasteful dirty tricks'.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

Look, I've got no idea what misinformation was spread, and if some of it was, and was done malicioiusly, then I understand your frustration (and even share it).

If you have no idea, then you shouldn't pass judgment on it as you are doing.

Some nuggets:

- Dual-layer discs are science-fiction

- The Samsung BD-P1000 won't play dual-layer discs

- Lionsgate are now encoding in VC-1 (true) - therefore (OMG!) they might be preparing to support HD DVD!

- Ditto for Disney

- BD+ may brick your player if a pirate has used the same model you have

- VC-1 can give excellent results with 10 Mbps

- Profile 1.1 discs (maybe) won't play on 1.0 players

- Profile 2.0 discs (maybe) won't play on 1.0 or 1.1 players

- 30 GB is good enough [Transformers comes out without lossless audio] Hey, who needs lossless audio!

Need I continue?

[Jeff Kleist]

...curious, Jeff, what were the reasons you picked Blu as the obvious winner, when did you make that call, when did you learn about these activities by the so-called "ants", and how long was it before the 'Bits made their preference public? Did you make the call before Bill made up his mind?

1-Studio support, specifically which studios were involved along with the number of them (5-2 (2 dual-formats), the fact that every major hardware manufacturer but one was in the Blu camp, PS2's proven capability as a format trojan horse in multiple countries, combined with the technological superiority of the format. The first 3 were primary reasons. Bill and I, among others at the Bits felt Blu was the better bet after lots of long conversations well before Bill's piece. I don't remember how long, it was months at least though. When did I suspect what was going on or when did I have enough information to be sure? Suspect almost immediately, early 2006, sure by mid-2007ish.

I remember "pestering" Bill at ComicCon 2006 after the Bits' panel with an impassioned plea why BD was the way to go, because at that point he had commented on HD DVD's better launch than what the BDA had done up to that point (which was pretty weak, sputtering out of the gate). (Interestingly we also talked with a couple BDA reps there...did you know The Davinci Code was supposed to be the first BD50?) As far as the format war went Bill was fair and balanced, and listened to every side. He gave Toshiba & company the benefit of the doubt and didn't pull any punches when BD failed to impress.

No punches were pulled if you look back at the two cents archives. It was bad times there, heck I thought that despite everything that they could blow it anyway, or that the money would get too good and some studios would fold for the short term gains.

Grubert, don't forget the constant crap flowing about how they couldn't make BD-50s in any quantity, leaking exact worst case scenario yield numbers off of the floor from pressing plants, as well as Nielsen stuff as soon as it was on the industry feed. The entire transformers debacle where sales figures were delayed. Somehow well over a third of the copies they had announced sellling on monday had vanished by Thursday, something about those not actually selling through to consumers....

Needless to say there's a lot lot more where his list came from. Crap was flowing on a daily basis.

[bt12483]

Originally Posted by Grubert

If you have no idea, then you shouldn't pass judgment on it as you are doing.

Some nuggets:

- Dual-layer discs are science-fiction

- The Samsung BD-P1000 won't play dual-layer discs

- Lionsgate are now encoding in VC-1 (true) - therefore (OMG!) they might be preparing to support HD DVD!

- Ditto for Disney

- BD+ may brick your player if a pirate has used the same model you have

- VC-1 can give excellent results with 10 Mbps

- Profile 1.1 discs (maybe) won't play on 1.0 players

- Profile 2.0 discs (maybe) won't play on 1.0 or 1.1 players

- 30 GB is good enough [Transformers comes out without lossless audio] Hey, who needs lossless audio!

Need I continue?

Don't forget the new FUD du jour regarding Managed Copy (in relationship to disc playback in older players, etc.). I guess it's only brewing just now...but the same Peanut's gallery characters are jumping on it as the "new" "reason" (amongst all the others) to hate bluray.

I guess if it were up to Amir HD DVD would have been a ~8-9Mbps VC1 format with 1.5Mbps audio. You know, since no one can hear the benefits of lossless audio and high bitrates are equally negligible. Sure, VC1 and 1.5Mbps audio can technically be classified as "HD" codecs (what with double blind testing and what not), but when your marketing slogan is "the look and sound of perfect", it is kind of a smack in the face. Maybe it's just me (or maybe Amir was trying to downplay the negative talking points about HD DVD (regarding bitrate, space, etc.) with his "good enough" routine), but Amir's vision of HD DVD seemed more the DVD on steroids than a proper HD format.

From a cost/benefit/value ratio, why would I have spent ~double the money for an HD DVD with 8-9Mbps video and 1.5Mbps audio when certain DVDs can achieve a "similar" level with 7-8Mbps video and ~768kbps audio (with DTS). I know the codec differences, etc. can create a large gap in quality, but when trying to convince people to upgrade, was Amir's HD DVD "good enough" vision really going to persuade people? Especially in light of their "perfect" marketing campaign? Or was it all just fluff to deflect away/satiate the loyal supporters from the negative talking points of the format?

[Joe Cain]

Originally Posted by bt12483

Don't forget the new FUD du jour regarding Managed Copy (in relationship to disc playback in older players, etc.). I guess it's only brewing just now...but the same Peanut's gallery characters are jumping on it as the "new" "reason" (amongst all the others) to hate bluray.

Funny thing is, I remember two years ago being told that Managed Copy was actually a selling point for HD DVD over Blu-ray in spite of the fact that MC was provided for in both formats' specs and nowhere near implementation for either...I concluded those "sources" must have been confusing MC with ease of piracy.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bt12483

Don't forget the new FUD du jour regarding Managed Copy (in relationship to disc playback in older players, etc.). I guess it's only brewing just now...but the same Peanut's gallery characters are jumping on it as the "new" "reason" (amongst all the others) to hate bluray.

lol, I just checked that *science* thread out, I had no idea that Amir and Lee Stewart were still posting on the internet !!!!!!!!!!!!

That thread is like a red ant revival with some of the contributors.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Grubert

If you have no idea, then you shouldn't pass judgment on it as you are doing.

Some nuggets:

- Dual-layer discs are science-fiction

- The Samsung BD-P1000 won't play dual-layer discs

- Lionsgate are now encoding in VC-1 (true) - therefore (OMG!) they might be preparing to support HD DVD!

- Ditto for Disney

- BD+ may brick your player if a pirate has used the same model you have

- VC-1 can give excellent results with 10 Mbps

- Profile 1.1 discs (maybe) won't play on 1.0 players

- Profile 2.0 discs (maybe) won't play on 1.0 or 1.1 players

- 30 GB is good enough [Transformers comes out without lossless audio] Hey, who needs lossless audio!

Need I continue?

I’ll tell you.
They won the internet fanboy war but, they were crushed in the real world format war at the end of the day........including jet fuel from Japan to L.A.
To this day, I wonder how many thousands of dollars Amir cost early adopters with his repeated online assurances that “HD DVD will be here for a long time”.

And how many thousands of dollars that Bill Hunt and Jeff, etc. saved audio video enthusiasts who trusted in their judgment from the beginning. That is nothing to take for granted given these hard economic times.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

I'm talking about people directly employed by HD DVD to spread misinformation, viral marketing types who then used willing patsies like Lee Stewart and the rest of the usual suspects to spread their FUD when they knew they couldn't get away with posting it themselves. There are several prolific HD DVD related posters that have been all traced back to geographically neighboring IP blocks

I always wondered if Lee ever got free lodging at rdjam's Motel 6 (or whatever similarl motel) that he reportedly managed in the Miami area.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

So, skimmy McGee/Penton, a direct question: You a Fatburger or In-And-Out guy?

Man, makes me want to fly to Vegas and go grab one on the strip...

I think you just answered the question for me.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

The whole "red ant" thing (which I believe Penton coined)

I wonder if I can get a wikipedia entry for that, i.e. ‘It’s reported that Penton-Man coined the phrase “Red Ants” in referring to……….”

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

Damnit. SORRY. I thought you didnt watch the asphalt stuff. Sorry again.

That’s o.k., just give me a couple of days…..I’m still trying to get past Soul Sacrifice (Santana) on Woodstock as I keep replaying and replaying it and I haven’t even checked my recorded TV shows yet.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

After 40 years, thats sad.

It gets worse.
Ever peruse the credits at the end of many of your Blu-ray movies and notice how often this company’s name appears near the end……”Pacific Title”.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...goryid=13&cs=1

[Doctorossi]

Pacific Title is toast?!

Yowee!

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It gets worse.
Ever peruse the credits at the end of many of your Blu-ray movies and notice how often this company’s name appears near the end……”Pacific Title”.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...goryid=13&cs=1

Man that is rough. No industry is immune.

Get the race WATCHED, so we can induldge in some critical analysis of the....

[Jeff Kleist]

RIP Pacific title, I hope that everyone managed to find new jobs. PT did some great work