The Abyss 4K UHD (1989)

[Geoff D]

Just finished the UHD, SE version, on my OPPO 203 and I only got one lickle glitch, during the end credits it froze for a couple secs then carried on. Up until then it was perfick. Considering how many scratches it's got I'll take that as a win!

Just to confirm: This UHD really does kick the shit out of the UHDs of Aliens and True Lies, and for me it's not because of lighting or film stocks or 'camera ringing' or any other magical bullshit that people are claiming of these, it's simply because it's got a proper new 4K transfer at its base and so the AI doesn't have to do so much goddamn guesstimating. There's the occasional overly soft DNR'ed shot, and those googly eyes will never go away (tho I'm getting used to them!), but in the main this is real 4K detail we're seeing. Titanic's UHD is much the same for much the same reasons. As such I don't believe the "they were learning as they went along and Abyss is betterer because they did it last" thing for a second, it may well have been done last but what we're seeing isn't the result of a computer getting smarter, it's primarily source related. Great 4K source with AI special sauce = great end result. Old 2K source with AI special sauce = too much for the AI to do (and always will be, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear).

Abyss generally keeps to a stunning level of detail, it's got none of the detail on/off/on/off madness of Aliens or the pervasively poor focus pulling of True Lies, they've still dialled down the grain but you get a nice little sprinkling of the stuff on most shots. The highlights can look quite 'crispy', for want of a betterer word, as the grain spikes in the brighter areas of the frame and the compression doesn't always render it cleanly, but in the main this looks 100x more filmic than Aliens and True Lies put together.

I may have mentioned before how dirty this transfer looks, with lots of regular white speckles throughout - not a distracting hailstorm of the stuff, but still dirtier than what most new transfers from major studios would look like - and that's another thing that sets it apart from True Lies and Aliens, which look much cleaner (tho Aliens still has the dirt which escaped the Lowry pass before). That's a good thing as it clearly didn't go through the same pipeline as those. The pseudopod opticals look damned good for what they are too (yes, the CG water tentacle was optically composited in apart from the shot of it turning back to water), still obvious opticals with a rougher look but they hold up superbly.

See how Aliens offers up little or no extra highlight detail in HDR vs the previous Lowry master, likely because that *is* the old 2K SDR version ported into HDR space? (Which even Titanic's UHD was, to be fair, albeit in 4K and not 2K.) Abyss has a bunch more highlight detail throughout on UHD vs the Lowry theatrical SDR transfer, the UHD might not have all the highlights in the world all the time but what's there is often more clipped and blown out on the Lowry theatrical and for me that's another honking great sign that Abyss has been redone from scratch, that they haven't just reused an old transfer they had lying around.

I love the colour on this, I said of the Lowry theatrical remaster that it still had blue - proper deep dark Cameron blue - in all the right places and so does this UHD. Yes, there's still a cyan bent to much of it but given the underwater setting then it's entirely appropriate, and when the blue hits it's properly blue. Gorgeous. And this thing even has CONTRAST! Aliens and True Lies look a little washed out on UHD but this has a lovely dense black level, much darker than the Lowry theatrical where the underwater scenes are particularly grey and bright.

Compression isn't super-amazing on the UHD as said but given the length of the movie plus all the branching bits then it's fine, and it's still betterer than the garbage that, say, Paramount or StudioCanal usually serve up. Not much banding in all those tricky underwater gradations either, if any, even though this doesn't have a 12-bit Dobly extension (just MEL according to Andreas). Just good competent work.

Basically, if Aliens and True Lies (and T2!) looked as good as this does then boy there'd be a whole lot less complaining. Consistently sharp detail without losing its filmic lustre and a nice little HDR expansion with a punchy colour grade that doesn't make it look all flat and dull. To be perfickly honest it's hard to believe that True Lies and Aliens were even approved by the same fookin director, because The Abyss is a triumph on UHD and it's not down to being starved of the movie for so long that I'd accept any old shit (which I've kinda done with True Lies), it genuinely *is* a damned good transfer.

Oh, and check out this awesome Easter egg! It's from the close-up shot of Coffey explaining where the submarine is, look at the text on the piece of paper. The name 'Gorman' caught my eye but then I noticed Reese, Kyle as well as Weyland...woah

[Steedeel]

^nice review, although it’s a very big shout to say A.I will never make improvements with a 2K source.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

^nice review, although it’s a very big shout to say A.I will never make improvements with a 2K source.

It'll never, ever be a substitute for a competent 4K transfer from the OG neg. That's the point. That's always been the point. And it will always continue to be.

[Mosin-Nagant]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Got my US copy today and...the UHD disc has a whole bunch of scuffs and scratches, most near the outer rim where the layer changes can get so easily corrupted. Aliens got away with a tiny scratch, True Lies was fine, and most importantly both played perfickly, but I'm not looking forward to spinning The Abuse. How typical is it that the most eagerly awaited of the three AND the least terrible-looking of the three is the one that gets the shit end of the stick?

What I don't get with these stackers is why they always always fookin ALWAYS put the UHD on top of another disc. You've got two hubs so keep one for the UHD on its own and put the two BDs together. Naturally, the other two discs are fine, the fookin BD25 they've used for the extras is particularly pristine. Just...ugh.

Admittedly it may play a-okay, but given all the issues people have been having I don't rate my chances. Good job I ordered the Italian edition a while back, it's not out until April but at least it won't look like someone's dropped it on the floor. If the US one won't play proper like I'll send it back to Amazon.

Regarding the 4K UHD disc scratched to death, your message perfectly describes the situation and my feelings about this deluge of incompetence concentrated in a single plastic case.

Despite everything, I must admit that I did not encounter the slightest problem while viewing the theatrical version on my PS5.

Still, I pre-ordered the Japanese edition, in order to have the guarantee of receiving an immaculate disc. Japan is a true paradise for these things: their level of attention to detail in manufacturing is unrivaled.

[George.P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It'll never, ever be a substitute for a competent 4K transfer from the OG neg. That's the point. That's always been the point. And it will always continue to be.

But that's impossible. AI can find details that aren't even present on the OG negative. That has to be super better.

[SpacemanDoug]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It'll never, ever be a substitute for a competent 4K transfer from the OG neg. That's the point. That's always been the point. And it will always continue to be.

what audio track did you watch it with?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by SpacemanDoug

what audio track did you watch it with?

The Atmos (albeit not in Atmos, lol). It's so bizarre tho, when watching with the TrueHD decoded to PCM on the OPPO then the errors were there, when watching with the TrueHD to PCM on the Panny then the errors were not there! It's just bonkers, even tho I know the Panny is otherwise decoding the TrueHD and not mistakenly decoding the lossy 5.1 embed.

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Oh, and check out this awesome Easter egg! It's from the close-up shot of Coffey explaining where the submarine is, look at the text on the piece of paper. The name 'Gorman' caught my eye but then I noticed Reese, Kyle as well as Weyland...woah

[Show spoiler]

AI. #Winning

[deadmanjones57]

Much cooler than whatever the hell they used on The Beatles: Get Back, where text looked all gooped up like everything had water damage.

[peppapigstan]

not surprised the movie that's probably the most relevant to cameron right now got the best treatment lol

[Croweyes1121]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The Atmos (albeit not in Atmos, lol). It's so bizarre tho, when watching with the TrueHD decoded to PCM on the OPPO then the errors were there, when watching with the TrueHD to PCM on the Panny then the errors were not there! It's just bonkers, even tho I know the Panny is otherwise decoding the TrueHD and not mistakenly decoding the lossy 5.1 embed.

Not sure how that's possible. If both players were actually playing back the same track, you'd hear the same thing. Surely one of them must be doing something differently than the other.

[punisher]

I had a freeze up /pixelation about 46 minutes in using my OPPO 203 but then I scanned back and replayed the scene several time with no problem. My disc was not scratched, luckily, and has been passed on. I did back up everything and the back up plays perfectly as well.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

^nice review, although it’s a very big shout to say A.I will never make improvements with a 2K source.

Why do you seem so hellbent on using AI, and especially using it on a lower quality source? It seems like you're so caught up in cheerleading for AI that you've lost all sense of perspicacity. If you're bound and determined to use AI, then why not use it on the best quality original source possible? I'll bet if AI was actually intelligent and aware, it would probably much prefer to ingest the left image below.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Why do you seem so hellbent on using AI, and especially using it on a lower quality source? It seems like you're so caught up in cheerleading for AI that you've lost all sense of perspicacity. If you're bound and determined to use AI, then why not use it on the best quality original source possible? I'll bet if AI was actually intelligent and aware, it would probably much prefer to ingest the left image below.

Using it on the best quality source would, of course, be preferable.

What makes you think I wouldn’t desire that? We have already seen examples of it used well with Titanic and The Abyss, for example.

There is always a flip side, why do people always seem to be down on A.I, like it’s taken us back to the VHS days?
So True Lies may look a little odd and less than desirable? So what, we all have plenty of discs in our collection that suit that description, it’s not a huge deal.

It’s done, JC made the decision, and this is the result. We are in the infancy of A.I, and I just don’t fear it like many do. Having sampled gaming that has been A.I upscaled (with other special sauce to boot) and witnessed some of the latest Sora creations, it could be a mind blowing tool for the film industry.
Constantly brow beating People for not being 100% negative on the transfers isn’t such a good look either, regardless of how many zoomed examples people give, nor is belittling people who don’t have utter Contempt, especially when some of those people more than likely have better set ups than the ones making all the fuss.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Using it on the best quality source would, of course, be preferable.

What makes you think I wouldn’t desire that? We have already seen examples of it used well with Titanic and The Abyss, for example.

There is always a flip side, why do people always seem to be down on A.I, like it’s taken us back to the VHS days?
So True Lies may look a little odd and less than desirable? So what, we all have plenty of discs in our collection that suit that description, it’s not a huge deal.

It’s done, JC made the decision, and this is the result. We are in the infancy of A.I, and I just don’t fear it like many do. Having sampled gaming that has been A.I upscaled (with other special sauce to boot) and witnessed some of the latest Sora creations, it could be a mind blowing tool for the film industry.
Constantly brow beating People for not being 100% negative on the transfers isn’t such a good look either, regardless of how many zoomed examples people give, nor is belittling people who don’t have utter Contempt, especially when some of those people more than likely have better set ups than the ones making all the fuss.

People are down on AI because of it's destructive potential.

Traditional upscaling was just math. As long as you did the math well, it worked. The math doesn't need to understand what faces are and what they look like, what a movie is, what depth of field is, etc.

And traditional restorations required knowledgeable people to manually make decisions about how to repair damaged film, restore colors, etc.

AI uses guesswork to "intelligently" "enhance" films, without having any actual understanding of what it's doing. Unlike sharpening, traditional DNR, and other filters, which again, just used math algorithms, AI attempts to make "intelligent" decisions about how to improve an image without having any understanding of what the image is. So there's strong potential for it to wreck havoc with images and films, as it analyzes each frame and guesses at what it should do with each pixel. Is that facial hair or scars? Are those teeth? What are teeth and hair anyways? What we call "AI" today is not really AI. It's in no way intelligent or capable of understanding anything from being self-aware (that's a good thing). It's just learned algorithms. It applies enhancements without knowing what it's actually doing or why. So results are wonky.

You want to play around with that in the labs, and mess around with random Youtube clips, fine. But don't use it on major beloved Hollywood film classics when it's in it's infancy and not up to the task of being used in such a way. The mere fact that they admitted that the AI algorithms got better between each Cameron film, with True Lies and Aliens being done before The Abyss and Titanic, demonstrates that it's not a mature technology yet and should not even be considered for commercial use until it's proven itself capable.

You could have maybe said the same thing about early CGi, as many a film has been ruined by poor cgi over the years. But those were brand new films, with the filmmakers willing to use their new films as a testing ground for new effects technologies. Sometimes it worked, many times it didn't early on. No different than many older otherwise great films that featured poor practical effects due to lack of budget or expertise.

These Cameron films are established films that have been enjoyed for decades, now being harmed retroactively by applying poor technology as a crutch or a replacement for doing things properly.

[LordoftheRings]

With AI they won't need actors anymore. ...You'll see; Hollywood is gong to save a whole bunch of money. No more $100 million paycheck per film for prime actors and directors (Cameron, Cruise and the highest paid elite actors). AI will stop the greed. But then, it will also ...

It is what it is; you cannot stop what's coming up.

[peppapigstan]

AI for upscaling isn't actually the worst option ever, we've seen Discotek use AstroRes for anime that have lower quality elements that will stick out from higher quality footage (Memories, Urusei Yatsura: Only You, and Violence Jack) or anime that deserve to be on Blu-ray but don't have the best sources available (Digimon or Re:Cutie Honey) and those turned out good for the most part (not a fan of the Shaman King upscale though)

[KMFDMvsEnya]

Originally Posted by peppapigstan

AI for upscaling isn't actually the worst option ever, we've seen Discotek use AstroRes for anime that have lower quality elements that will stick out from higher quality footage (Memories, Urusei Yatsura: Only You, and Violence Jack) or anime that deserve to be on Blu-ray but don't have the best sources available (Digimon or Re:Cutie Honey) and those turned out good for the most part (not a fan of the Shaman King upscale though)

AI injecting fake details with animation has less visual information to misinterpret.

Live action material will always inherently have more things for the AI to trip up on and create erroneous output.

That is why the funky AI worms continue to be visible. The algorithms make false assumptions and also get stuck in a feedback loop which reinforces and perpetuates the worms.

[deadmanjones57]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

AI injecting fake details with animation has less visual information to misinterpret.

Live action material will always inherently have more things for the AI to trip up on and create erroneous output.

That is why the funky AI worms continue to be visible. The algorithms make false assumptions and also get stuck in a feedback loop which reinforces and perpetuates the worms.

when will hollywood learn that their actions have consequences

[geomon]

Originally Posted by peppapigstan

AI for upscaling isn't actually the worst option ever, we've seen Discotek use AstroRes for anime that have lower quality elements that will stick out from higher quality footage (Memories, Urusei Yatsura: Only You, and Violence Jack) or anime that deserve to be on Blu-ray but don't have the best sources available (Digimon or Re:Cutie Honey) and those turned out good for the most part (not a fan of the Shaman King upscale though)

Didn't we just get a 4K release of Paprika that was AI upscaled that looked pretty good (outside of some line smearing)? At least to me it did.

So, personally I'm not against the idea of upscaling with AI. What I'm against is the obvious laziness (not so much here as it is with Aliens and True Lies) where you have access to much better quality sources and you don't use them.