Archived: Insiders Thread

[Frode]

To avoid confusion, newer specs use 1080i30 instead of 1080i60, so the number after the "i" or "p" is always in frames per second.

Actually that's just going to cause even MORE confusion IMO.

I think in the case of BD, it's useful to note that 1080p60 is not supported for storage on the disc - only for output by the player. For storage 1080p24 and 1080i60 is supported.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Frode

I think in the case of BD, it's useful to note that 1080p60 is not supported for storage on the disc - only for output by the player. For storage 1080p24 and 1080i60 is supported.

This is actually not true for games content where you have 60fps video originating from a BD.

Just to make things more confusing, for anyone keeping score "1080p60" is ambiguous -- in kjack's sense it means 60 frames of 1080p as refreshed by the display; in Frode's sense as the frame rate of the video content.

[Frode]

Originally Posted by Teazle

This is actually not true for games content where you have 60fps video originating from a BD.

I said "BD", not "games".

Just to make things more confusing, for anyone keeping score "1080p60" is ambiguous -- in kjack's sense it means 60 frames of 1080p as refreshed by the display; in Frode's sense as the frame rate of the video content.

No, they're the same thing. 1080P60 is very explicit and unambiguous.

[john_nemesh]

Originally Posted by hollywoodguy

Shameless bump of a couple of older posts to get a few questions into this thread :

KJack,

1) How far do you think we are off from the first player that does it all: BonusView, BD-Live and able to put out all advanced codecs as either fully internally decoded MPCM or raw bitstream (with the choice up to the end user)?

2) Do you see any major shifts in the US player market (sans PS3 & 360 add-on) for the rest of 2007? Before the start of the holiday season we saw a momentary sales lead of Blu-ray players over HD DVD. With the $199 and $99 1080i players the momentum (in units sold) seems to have shifted back considerably to HD DVD, but we haven't heard any non-PS3 numbers from the BD companies in a while.

Re: DTS HD MA

If all players decoded it, we'd probably want the studios to use nothing else. Lower bitrate peaks than DTHD, highest-available-quality lossy core and smaller size than DTHD&DD combined are awfully good specs. I would be very interested in some of the insider's opionions about the future of DTS HD MA.

Maybe RBFilms, if he still reads this thread, can chime in for a second to explain why he thinks DTS HD MA is the best choice for HDM, I remember him being very vocal about it in the past.

Also KJack, is internal decoding coming soon?

Paidgeek, how was working with DTS HD MA on Close Encounters? Any perceptual difference to DTHD? Advantages, disadvantages? Any plans by Sony to use it in the future for other reasons than to indulge a certain director ?

The only ANNOUNCED BD Profile 2.0 player has been from Daewoo of all people. I have heard that the PS3 MIGHT be able to be upgraded to a full 2.0 spec, but its too early to tell.

To be full 2.0, it needs Ethernet connectivity, PIP with a 2nd video decoder, and 1GB of memory.

The Panasonic DMPBD30 is currently the only 1.1 "full profile" player on the market, it has PIP with a 2nd tuner, and the 256MB can be added by the customer via SD card slot. However, its lack of Ethernet means that it will never be upgradeable to 2.0 and BD-Live.

The Samsung BDUP-5000 Universal player WILL have Ethernet and the 2nd video decoder...if they add enough memory on board or at least make it user upgradable (with SD memory or the like) they SHOULD be able to make it 2.0 compliant with a firmware upgrade. However, this ability has NOT been confirmed.

Personally, I could care less about BD-Live. If I want to go shopping for movie related stuff, I will turn off my TV and turn on my PC! The web enabled crap for HD-DVD is just that so far...and I have seen nothing that would make me miss this functionality...ringtones and cell phone wallpaper for sale? No thank you!

[OokieSpookie]

Originally Posted by john_nemesh

The only ANNOUNCED BD Profile 2.0 player has been from Daewoo of all people. I have heard that the PS3 MIGHT be able to be upgraded to a full 2.0 spec, but its too early to tell.

To be full 2.0, it needs Ethernet connectivity, PIP with a 2nd video decoder, and 1GB of memory.

The Panasonic DMPBD30 is currently the only 1.1 "full profile" player on the market, it has PIP with a 2nd tuner, and the 256MB can be added by the customer via SD card slot. However, its lack of Ethernet means that it will never be upgradeable to 2.0 and BD-Live.

The Samsung BDUP-5000 Universal player WILL have Ethernet and the 2nd video decoder...if they add enough memory on board or at least make it user upgradable (with SD memory or the like) they SHOULD be able to make it 2.0 compliant with a firmware upgrade. However, this ability has NOT been confirmed.

Personally, I could care less about BD-Live. If I want to go shopping for movie related stuff, I will turn off my TV and turn on my PC! The web enabled crap for HD-DVD is just that so far...and I have seen nothing that would make me miss this functionality...ringtones and cell phone wallpaper for sale? No thank you!

The PS3 is already confirmed for 2.0, as has been cemented today by information coming out of the event yesterday.

[savage1984]

Originally Posted by OokieSpookie

The PS3 is already confirmed for 2.0, as has been cemented today by information coming out of the event yesterday.

SWEET. Even though I was pretty sure it was true. I just like hearing other informed people say it.

[Bombthroat]

Originally Posted by john_nemesh

To be full 2.0, it needs Ethernet connectivity, PIP with a 2nd video decoder, and 1GB of memory.

To be clear, that is 1G of solid state storage such as a hard drive or memory card. It is NOT RAM or what people more traditionally think of as "memory".

So yeah, the PS3 should get firmware updated to Profile 2.0 with no problem.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

Some good news. I met with the folks at Sony Computer Entertainment America recently and met with a gentlemen there who can monitor and post hear from time to time. It will be much better for you to get first hand information from this fellow than for me to try passing information back and forth....

Excellent. Can't wait to see this person's posts! Greetings in advance.

[HDJK]

Paidgeek,

Since I grew up with the dubbed version of 'The Life of Brian' I went ahead and bought the German release (also by Sony). I received it yesterday and noticed there are four losless tracks on it! German DolbyTHD, English DolbyTHD, English PCM and Italian DolbyTHD. The lack of lossless audio tracks on domestic releases for the original language (usually English) is one of the reason I import most of my BDs. Could this be a sign of things to come (at least for Sony)? I for one would really appreciate it, and if you ever get to talk to someone from Sony Europe please thank them for yet another great catalog title

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Frode

I said "BD", not "games".



No, they're the same thing. 1080P60 is very explicit and unambiguous.

In gaming circles the notation "1080p60" means: 60 _different_ frames of 1920x1080 per second. Not 30 frames each repeated once and output as 1080p60 video. This is an established usage.

kjack's definition:
"1080p60 - 1920 samples x 1080 lines delivered 60 times per second. This results in 60 frames per second."

24fps, 30fps or 60fps content could conceivably be "delivered" in this way. A 30fps game could be output as "1080p60" in kjack's sense but not in the gamer's sense. This is the ambiguity I was referring to.

Addendum: I think if games were not the #1 application for Blu-ray discs at the moment there would be less opportunity for confusion. Even if the confusion is mainly mine.

[Hanzaki]

To Paidgeek,

Is there any differences between the US and the European version of the Life of Brian blu-ray other than the audio tracks and the subtitles? Thank you.

[whippersnapper]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

I think it still needs to be confirmed, but someone mentionned the Sony BDS 300 at $299 for the week of Xmas (again, to be verified).
Also, Best Buy starting on Dec. 7th has a 10-12% off week that includes Blu Ray players (according to my mailer ), so that would make a normal $399 BDS 300 around $349.

I think it still needs to be confirmed, but someone mentionned the Sony BDS 300 at $299 for the week of Xmas (again, to be verified).

This specifically was not posted by an insider.

[ckenisell]

Originally Posted by john_nemesh

Personally, I could care less about BD-Live. If I want to go shopping for movie related stuff, I will turn off my TV and turn on my PC! The web enabled crap for HD-DVD is just that so far...and I have seen nothing that would make me miss this functionality...ringtones and cell phone wallpaper for sale? No thank you!

See, that's the thing though. I believe there is a BIG movement of PC to TV. Personally, I would MUCH rather have the ability to purchase movie tickets to a sequel of a movie I'm currently watching on my Blu-ray movie. Who wants to have to boot up a PC, go the the right web site, purchase there? If I can do it all with my remote, that would be sweet.

What about actor bio updates? Trailer updates (no more, "coming soon" for movies that have been out for years). Chat with the director while you watch the movie with him. Special events. I mean, the possibilities are endless and I think simply ignoring BD-Live as a "gimmick" is short-sided.

[Frode]

In gaming circles the notation "1080p60" means: 60 _different_ frames of 1920x1080 per second. Not 30 frames each repeated once and output as 1080p60 video. This is an established usage.

No, in gaming circles 1080P60 can easily mean 30 frames that are repeated once each. The reason for this is that frame rate for games varies wildly. They can even be 22fps, 47fps, 137fps etc depending on scene complexity, hardware, user input and so on. I don't know where you got the "established usage" from, but it's certainly not representative of gamers or gaming.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by hollywoodguy

Shameless bump of a couple of older posts to get a few questions into this thread :

KJack,

1) How far do you think we are off from the first player that does it all: BonusView, BD-Live and able to put out all advanced codecs as either fully internally decoded MPCM or raw bitstream (with the choice up to the end user)?

2) Do you see any major shifts in the US player market (sans PS3 & 360 add-on) for the rest of 2007? Before the start of the holiday season we saw a momentary sales lead of Blu-ray players over HD DVD. With the $199 and $99 1080i players the momentum (in units sold) seems to have shifted back considerably to HD DVD, but we haven't heard any non-PS3 numbers from the BD companies in a while.

Re: DTS HD MA

If all players decoded it, we'd probably want the studios to use nothing else. Lower bitrate peaks than DTHD, highest-available-quality lossy core and smaller size than DTHD&DD combined are awfully good specs. I would be very interested in some of the insider's opionions about the future of DTS HD MA.

Maybe RBFilms, if he still reads this thread, can chime in for a second to explain why he thinks DTS HD MA is the best choice for HDM, I remember him being very vocal about it in the past.

Also KJack, is internal decoding coming soon?

Paidgeek, how was working with DTS HD MA on Close Encounters? Any perceptual difference to DTHD? Advantages, disadvantages? Any plans by Sony to use it in the future for other reasons than to indulge a certain director ?

The only disadvantage with DTS HD MA is available decoders. There aren't any big problems with authoring either one, but it is correct that there is a slight bandwidth/disc consumption advantage with DTS HD MA. Since both Dolby THD and DTS HD MA should provide exactly the same experience for the consumer, the consumer preference for one over the other seems to be purely religious. Our experience with "Close Enounters" was fine, but there was some work required to acheive the seamless branching functions.

[Chris Beveridge]

What systems was the Close Encounters release tested with in terms of the DTS-MA? Or is that a "gotcha" question?

[onyxx]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

The only disadvantage with DTS HD MA is available decoders. There aren't any big problems with authoring either one, but it is correct that there is a slight bandwidth/disc consumption advantage with DTS HD MA. Since both Dolby THD and DTS HD MA should provide exactly the same experience for the consumer, the consumer preference for one over the other seems to be purely religious. Our experience with "Close Enounters" was fine, but there was some work required to acheive the seamless branching functions.

I'm just finished with Close Encounter and must say that I loved everything about it. Great AV transfer, great extras, seamless branching and beautifully packaging! It truly feels like a special set and I hope to see more of this from Sony in the future on classic releases like Taxi Driver, Lawrence of Arabia etc. Special editions with nice packaging and features like Close Encounters will make me double dip every time, great work!

[degas]

Paidgeek:
perhaps you can use Michael Bays quote in commercials from now on:

Originally Posted by Michael Bay

I see every frame of my films over a hundred times before it is ever released. I know the lighting conditions I shot it and the result on the DI. I know the range. I know what the final product should look like - Blu Ray suits my films better.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Michael Bay
I see every frame of my films over a hundred times before it is ever released. I know the lighting conditions I shot it and the result on the DI. I know the range. I know what the final product should look like - Blu Ray suits my films better.

I believe that Mr. Bay is being very diplomatic in not naming studio names as he has been informed that when a studio publishes in both formats (as one currently does), the PQ and/or AQ of the movie may suffer because of encoding to the lowest possible denominator given the inferior bandwith and space on the HD DVD format in contrast to the Blu-ray format……hence “Blu-ray suits my films better.”

Let’s see, now that Michael Bay has endorsed Blu-ray, he joins the following list of Directors and or Producers that are speaking openly regarding their preference for the display of their work in your home theaters – John Lasseter, David Mallet, Eli Roth, Martin Campbell, Bruckheimer…….

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/insidetracklisting.php

hmm, I wonder who will be next?

P.S.
By the way for those in the biz, Mr. Bay has (or at least had for awhile) a Symphony Nitris in addition to a Blu-ray player in his home screening room.

B.T.W.
Have you guys seen the Wal*Mart Blu-ray commercial yet ?

[Elandyll]

Symphony Nitris

Gah, I want one
I know James Cameron has either a Composer or a Symphony at home too hehe. I gotta get by with a good ol' Final Cut Pro HD at work

This being said, haven't "seen" the Wal Mart Blu Ray commercial yet, but last night on the news radio I listen to, Wal Mart had a lenghty Promo for Xmas gift ideas, and they prominently featured Die Hard 4 "available on DVD and exclusively Blu Ray High Def". No trace of HD DVD