The Criterion Collection

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by *PREACHER*

Black Moon was a trip, and I purchased it after reading that it had an Alice in Wonderland feel to it. House is another weird, tripped out film that I love.

If I had to order them as fav's

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Black Moon
House

My a-list of tripped out/bizarre Criterion titles that are my fav's!!!
Would love some other recomendations for weird....
..and don't say Salo...I know all to well about that film.

You definitely need to see more Bunuel and Bergman. And read any Garth Ennis
war graphic novels.

[brandon_260]

Originally Posted by *PREACHER*

Black Moon was a trip, and I purchased it after reading that it had an Alice in Wonderland feel to it. House is another weird, tripped out film that I love.

If I had to order them as fav's

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Black Moon
House

My a-list of tripped out/bizarre Criterion titles that are my fav's!!!
Would love some other recomendations for weird....
..and don't say Salo...I know all to well about that film.

Love House. It was actually my first Criterion purchase.

I'd recommend Being John Malkovich, if you haven't seen it yet.

On that topic, I finally watched the interview with Malkovich on the supplements disc. Fantastic.

[*PREACHER*]

Thanks Fellini and Brandon for all the wonderful suggestions...as you can see Fellini in regards to my Avatar...HUGE Ennis and Dillon fan!!!

Brandon I have seen Being John Malkovich and both me and the Mrs. loved it...we're huge Cusack fans! Have yet to pick up the Criterion but when I do the supplements will be my first viewing pleasure!

[blkhrt]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Forbidden Games left a scar in my psyche. That poor, poor little girl.

In fact, my vote for the saddest movie ever made is a tie between Forbidden Games and Bicyle Thieves.

Have you seen Grave of the Fireflies?

[*PREACHER*]

Originally Posted by olazm

Just opened my copy of Army of Shadows to watch it and it contained a loose Blu-ray along with the copy inside the case. Looks like they packed two copies of the film. I don't know what to do with the other copy.

You can send it to me!!!

[Show spoiler]

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by olazm

Just opened my copy of Army of Shadows to watch it and it contained a loose Blu-ray along with the copy inside the case. Looks like they packed two copies of the film. I don't know what to do with the other copy.

Army of Shadows is tied with Casino Royale as my favorite Blu-ray in my collection to date. Not necessarily the best-looking or most technically flawless Blu, but my favorite in terms of the total package (greatness of the movie itself combined with a great high definition transfer).

Somebody on this forum will surely provide a loving home for your stray copy.

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by *PREACHER*

Thanks Fellini and Brandon for all the wonderful suggestions...as you can see Fellini in regards to my Avatar...HUGE Ennis and Dillon fan!!!

Brandon I have seen Being John Malkovich and both me and the Mrs. loved it...we're huge Cusack fans! Have yet to pick up the Criterion but when I do the supplements will be my first viewing pleasure!

Ennis has to be one of greatest comic writers of today (with Neil Gaiman) It's great to meet another fan. About a month ago I finished his Hellblazer run and Nick Fury Max. I think his best work is his war stories. He puts a lot of research in those stories.

Jodorowsky is another great surrealist director. El Topo and Holy Mountain are his masterpieces. These movies go beyond any contemporary film that is considered bizarre. Lynch and Aronofsky films are laughable compared to any Jodorowsky film. Check them out, especially if you are Ennis fan.

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Army of Shadows is tied with Casino Royale as my favorite Blu-ray in my collection to date. Not necessarily the best-looking or most technically flawless Blu, but my favorite in terms of the total package (greatness of the movie itself combined with a great high definition transfer).

Somebody on this forum will surely provide a loving home for your stray copy.

Army of Shadows is my favorite Melville film out on blu ray until Le Samourai is released.

[paul000]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

Jodorowsky is another great surrealist director. El Topo and Holy Mountain are his masterpieces. These movies go beyond any contemporary film that is considered bizarre. Lynch and Aronofsky films are laughable compared to any Jodorowsky film. Check them out, especially if you are Ennis fan.

All right, I've seen you say this here twice now. Let's discuss. Putting Lynch and Aronofsky on the same level is laughable to me but I'm interested; in that comparison as well as Jodorowsky being a higher form of artist with El Topo/Holy Mountain vs Lynch (I guess those two against his entire filmography?)

[Monty70]

Originally Posted by paul000

All right, I've seen you say this here twice now. Let's discuss. Putting Lynch and Aronofsky on the same level is laughable to me but I'm interested; in that comparison as well as Jodorowsky being a higher form of artist with El Topo/Holy Mountain vs Lynch (I guess those two against his entire filmography?)

My thoughts exactly. I've haven't seen El Topo, but I've seen Holy Mountain and Santa Sangre. I enjoyed the films and he is obviously a talented filmmaker, but wouldn't say that he has made anything (that I've seen) that tops Lynch's best work.

The two men obviously respect each other. They had plans to work on the same project a few years back before the financing fell through.


Anyway... Here is an interesting quote from Jodorowsky on Lynch's version of Dune.

AVC: For a long time, you were involved with developing Dune into a feature film, before the project fell through. Did you ever see David Lynch’s Dune?

AJ: Yes, I’ve seen it. I was very scared when I saw it, because Dune was for me very important in my life. I was very sad I could not do it. When I saw that David Lynch would do it, I was very scared, because I admire him as a moviemaker, and I thought he would do well. But when I see the picture, I realize he never understood this picture. It’s not a David Lynch picture. It’s the producer who made that picture, no? Who made this horror. For David Lynch, it was a job. A commercial job. It never was that for me.

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by paul000

All right, I've seen you say this here twice now. Let's discuss. Putting Lynch and Aronofsky on the same level is laughable to me but I'm interested; in that comparison as well as Jodorowsky being a higher form of artist with El Topo/Holy Mountain vs Lynch (I guess those two against his entire filmography?)

Sure.

First of all I do agree that placing Lynch and Aronofsky together is unfair. Lynch, in my opinion, has better command of surrealism in his films. He uses it to draw emotion and mixture of symbolism. Aronofsky, in the another hand, uses surrealism as a practical tool in his narrative and ultimately for a "twist" at the end. To me, this practical, cheap use of surrealism is very superficial, but to many viewers it makes the film interesting.

As for some of the earlier surrealist, dreams were meant to make one feel uneasy, bringing multiple layers of symbols that would draw you in because of its familiarity. Distortion and condensation are key elements to the surreal art. There is nothing sacred or limits to dreams.

So this is were Jodorowsky enters. His films have no bounds. Religious symbolism as well as sexual symbolism abound in his films. Malformed as well as beautiful actors are in his films. These are not just used for practical reasons but there is a deeper symbolism that in the end turns into a mystery or a dream. At the end Jodorowsky does not care to be sensible or accessible. I think Lynch's Eraserhead was the most surreal of his filmography.

[*PREACHER*]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

Ennis has to be one of greatest comic writers of today (with Neil Gaiman) It's great to meet another fan. About a month ago I finished his Hellblazer run and Nick Fury Max. I think his best work is his war stories. He puts a lot of research in those stories.

Jodorowsky is another great surrealist director. El Topo and Holy Mountain are his masterpieces. These movies go beyond any contemporary film that is considered bizarre. Lynch and Aronofsky films are laughable compared to any Jodorowsky film. Check them out, especially if you are Ennis fan.

I'll definitely have to thanks...nice as well to meet another comic fan...been reading Y: The Last Man lately...great series!!!

[Monty70]

Here is another quote from Jodorowsky on Dune. (from an interview titled The Mole Man)

Leading on from killing Steven Spielberg, has your opinion of David Lynch's Dune changed at all?
I think David Lynch is a fantastic moviemaker. I was so ill when he made Dune. But when I went to the theatre to see it — always I tell this with great happiness, because I was so jealous — I was dying. I was grey. But then when I went to the theatre and saw the picture, I was so happy, because the picture was so bad! And then I could live again! Because if David Lynch had been able to make Dune as David Lynch, I think I would have died. But when he made a bad Dune, he saved my life. And I love David Lynch, because he saved my life. Also, I love Cronenberg, because he is an auteur, he has his obsession. I like him. He is honest. There are a lot of moviemakers I like, and there are others I hate. But what I hate the most is Spielberg. And second Walt Disney.

[Fellini912]

Monty70 does bring up a good point. As my post alluded to it, being commercial can limit the artist. Lynch's Eraserhead was his film school project with no producers looking for a financial successful film. Maybe at the end it's about honesty to one's art.

[deepbreathsanddeath]

So, I just started watching Walkabout, I was loving it and just before the 50 minute mark in the movie it froze. I tried fastforwarding, I tried skipping chapters ahead and nothing works but it all works up to that point... I took the disc out and checked it. There's no scratches or any kind of damage like that but I noticed that there's a bronze tinge when it's normally silver... I'm not overly knowledgable when it comes to the discs themselves so I apologize for my ignorance but have you guys experienced this problem and if so could you explain what you think I should do? I'm dying to watch the rest of it! haha

[paul000]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

Sure.

First of all I do agree that placing Lynch and Aronofsky together is unfair. Lynch, in my opinion, has better command of surrealism in his films. He uses it to draw emotion and mixture of symbolism. Aronofsky, in the another hand, uses surrealism as a practical tool in his narrative and ultimately for a "twist" at the end. To me, this practical, cheap use of surrealism is very superficial, but to many viewers it makes the film interesting.

As for some of the earlier surrealist, dreams were meant to make one feel uneasy, bringing multiple layers of symbols that would draw you in because of its familiarity. Distortion and condensation are key elements to the surreal art. There is nothing sacred or limits to dreams.

So this is were Jodorowsky enters. His films have no bounds. Religious symbolism as well as sexual symbolism abound in his films. Malformed as well as beautiful actors are in his films. These are not just used for practical reasons but there is a deeper symbolism that in the end turns into a mystery or a dream. At the end Jodorowsky does not care to be sensible or accessible. I think Lynch's Eraserhead was the most surreal of his filmography.

I don't know if I would put it that way but I can see that with Aronofsky. His films are cheaper to me. They hold no weight. However with Jodorowsky, it's not his surrealism that makes him work to me as much as his combination of symbolism with it and his use of violent/disturbing images. With Lynch it is all about mood. Some of the things aren't as concrete. Making Dune, I think it did him well because he knew not to make the same mistakes with the studios again. After that film he started forming an incredibly nice style to some complex/abstract ideas. I don't think he cares to be sensible or accessible either. I don't really see that at all. I don't see practicalities in his surrealism. Like Jodorowsky films, even if I don't understand Lynch it is always meaty. I chew on it. It's a nice piece of meat and there's always something in there that has me coming back with a personal connection. If you can call Aronofsky surreal (I think mainly referring to Black Swan?) he is moreso using it as an "edgy" technique in a straightforward "dreamlike" plot. There's nothing much deeper there than M Night Shayamalan. Out of the three of them Lynch has the better filmography with Eraserhead, The Elephant Man, Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks, Lost Highway, The Straight Story and Mulholland Dr. And if you get into the sound design and music and painting/photography, I think it's far too dismissive to say some of that about the guy. In my opinion. I'm a fan of both, not much of Aronofsky.

[paul000]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

Monty70 does bring up a good point. As my post alluded to it, being commercial can limit the artist. Lynch's Eraserhead was his film school project with no producers looking for a financial successful film. Maybe at the end it's about honesty to one's art.

Isn't money one of the main reasons Jodorowsky didn't make Dune? The thing was shut down. From what I've read, the pre production and people involved were bloated, if that makes sense. It could've easily been a disaster on film. And as I said a bit back, it probably would be for anyone working under a studio who wants an adaptation of this material under 2 hours and accessible to an audience who doesn't know the background. I don't think staying true to your art has anything to do with it, I think it's about saving your ass so you can make art for a living in the future! Lynch's Dune was a 40 mil production

[rock, stone]

Originally Posted by octagon

None of which were even remotely subtle let alone sly. The news items and recruiting commercials were absurdly over the top. That kind of thing isn't satire, it's barely sarcasm. It was just so dumb.

That's not to say it completely lacked any subtlety. The subtle moments (a very racially diverse selection of actors representing a largely lily-white service in a recruiting commercial, for instance) were just lost in a sea of dumb.

Heh, you sure don't like this movie. Which is totally fine with me. I can easily imagine being annoyed if someone took some source material of a particular ideology and purposefully used it to mock that point of view.

One point though: you are the only one who is calling Starship Troopers subtle. I just said it was sly. The Colbert Report isn't subtle either, but uses some similar tactics to lampoon its targets. Namely, dressing up in their clothes and tropes then acting like a buffoon.

Originally Posted by octagon

Yeah, you really had to squint to see the nazi references early on...

[Show spoiler]

You are really focused on hats today. Are you honestly going to tell me that when you saw that cap in the theatre you shouted "space nazi!"? Fair play, if you did.

But there is nothing about these characters that isn't corn fed, rock jawed, bootstrapped Amercian with a capital NRA, unless you count the selfish, liberal parents.

The characters all come from Buenos Aires, but look and act like they are from Kansas, 90210, which just further suggests that in the future, everyone is "American".

Originally Posted by octagon

Subversive? Starship Troopers was released in 1997, not 1957. Cynically lashing out at and/or mocking institutions wasn't simply acceptable in the 90s, it was de rigueur . Hell, Oliver Stone made something of a cottage industry out of being similarly 'subversive'. Though to be fair, Stone's sledgehammer approach was almost surgical in comparison.

And Verhoeven didn't miss any of the usual suspects - government, corporations, the military, a compliant media, a guillible public...he might as well have been working off a script (shut up, you know what I mean). All that was missing was a shot or two at consumerism (and it's been over ten years, maybe I'm just forgetting the Ikea references).

All of which is fine, btw. But subversive?

I think your Oliver Stone comparison is flawed here, partly because I tend to think of him as a guy with a blowhorn poking me with a stick. Stone doesn't make jokes on his way to lecture. And Starship Troopers swings from camp to deadpan. The filmmakers clearly know the joke.

Here's the thing: this was intended to be a summer blockbuster. They got a studio to pay 100 million dollars for a movie where they directly associate American pro-military rhetoric with Riefenstahl and then celebrates the clearly fascist heroes. It is essentially saying to its target audience, "you guys are a**holes".

Even in the 90s, that is still pretty subversive, right?

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

Army of Shadows is my favorite Melville film out on blu ray until Le Samourai is released.

Same. Le Samourai is my all-time favorite film.

[ravenus]

I went through the commentary track on Red Desert last night. It has some decent production detail and is occasionally interesting in its analysis but also has several areas of what seem to me drawing rather far-fetched inferences of the director's intent. Oh well, I suppose that's always a danger with film critics' commentaries. The 2 short films included on the disc are decent with some striking shots, though not distinctive like the Alain Resnais shorts on the Last Year At Marienbad BD. The best extra to me was the interview with Monica Vitti. Taken sometime in the 90's(?). By god she still looks gorgeous and unlike her roles in Antonioni's films comes across as a very cheerful well-rounded person. I should check out some of the comedy films she talks about.