The Movie Review and Discussion Thread

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Well, it also doesn't help that I dislike sports (not necessarily sports movies), especially car racing.

Seems odd that you would watch a documentary about a sportsman, since the messages are likely to elude you. One doesnt need to be knowledgable or passionate about a particular sport to get something from a well made documentary, but why see a film about something that you specifically dislike?

So what made Aryton so interesting as a person, other than the fact he was such a prominent figure and inspired so many?

Many aspects will be difficult for me to explain and for you to understand since you dont like sports. But I'll try a couple. Many people who participate in sports, especially speed/danger sports report to experience the exact opposite of what standard opinion is. Most folks believe that racers are adreniline junkies, who seek a rush. In many cases, especially among those who are extremely successful, this is false, and in fact the opposite is true. When some racers get into a 'zone' they are no longer thinking. They are functioning on almost a subconcious instinctual level. It becomes an exersize of rhythm and flow, like dancing, not one of calculation. Their heart rates actually go down. The feel euphoric and relaxed, NOT amped. Some feel as though they are in a vacuum.....free.

Senna experienced this on an even higher level. For Senna, speed was a spiritual experience. It was a way to explore himself and learn. A way to test himself in an effort to get closer to his God. To be more prepared to meet his God. And when I say 'prepared', I mean that he wanted to be qualified enough to have a meaningful engagement.

He wasnt an antsy speed junkie, he was a philisophical man. Speed was just a medium, a tool, a wavelength for connecting to what kept his soul balanced.

He was a pioneer, always pushing for increased car and track safety.

He gave millions of dollars to charity to aid poor children. That isnt that interesting in itself. What is interesting are the great lengths he went to in order to keep his donations anonymous, unlike many celebrities. He hid them well too because they werent even discovered until after his death.

Lots more.......

[Abdrewes]

^^^
I love plenty of Sports films, as a matter of fact, yesterday I saw Body and Soul which floored me. They just need depth, style and something to say for them to be worthwhile to me.

As for Aryton, sure, you make a valid case as to why he was so beloved. The charity work alone makes him a stand up guy in my opinion, I just wish the film gave me a reason to care.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

^^^
I love plenty of Sports films, as a matter of fact, yesterday I saw Body and Soul which floored me. They just need depth, style and something to say for them to be worthwhile to me.

I just cant get my head around that. How can you love a movie about something you dislike?

I dislike rap and hiphop. If a fan of rap or hiphop accused me of not "getting it" they would be right. I dont get it. And because I dont get it, a film about it would do nothing for me. Why would I want to see a film, especially a documentary, about something I dont 'get', dont participate in, and actually dislike.

As for Aryton, sure, you make a valid case as to why he was so beloved. The charity work alone makes him a stand up guy in my opinion, I just wish the film gave me a reason to care.

Have you forgotten your own argument? And mine? I said the movie failed IMO.

I gave you reasons why he was interesting and fascinating to me, not why he was widely beloved.

He was beloved by a large Catholic fanbase because he was a 'winner' and regularly spoke about his faith. Somehow Catholic car racing fans, and non car racing fan Catholics connected the two, which I find completely illogical and irrational, and therefore, equally interesting and fascinating.

He was beloved by F1 fans because he put on a good show.

[Mahatma]

Please don't make Senna into a saint.It won't fit.

[Lepidopterous]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

He was beloved by a large Catholic fanbase because he was a 'winner' and regularly spoke about his faith. Somehow Catholic car racing fans, and non car racing fan Catholics connected the two, which I find completely illogical and irrational, and therefore, equally interesting and fascinating.

Catholics didn't connect the two, Senna did. He used his beliefs as a foundation for his extraordinary success. So the Brazilian people looked up to that as a source of national/religious pride. There is nothing illogical/irrational about that. As a person, he's a hero in the many ways you have described. Senna was both remarkably charitable and extremely competitive. Those two qualities can contradict one another in public opinion (selfish vs. selfless), but the film covered both as it had to.

Illogical would be making arbitrary connections with success, such as Manny Pacquiao of the Phillippines or Arnold Schwarzenegger running for California governor. Both became politically successful because of the faith and confidence people had in them. This happens because whatever anybody's political preference was, their ears were open to him because he had their respect. In that way, these men have helped bring the parties together, regardless of their lack of political experience.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

I just cant get my head around that. How can you love a movie about something you dislike?

I dislike rap and hiphop. If a fan of rap or hiphop accused me of not "getting it" they would be right. I dont get it. And because I dont get it, a film about it would do nothing for me. Why would I want to see a film, especially a documentary, about something I dont 'get', dont participate in, and actually dislike.



Have you forgotten your own argument? And mine? I said the movie failed IMO.

I gave you reasons why he was interesting and fascinating to me, not why he was widely beloved.

He was beloved by a large Catholic fanbase because he was a 'winner' and regularly spoke about his faith. Somehow Catholic car racing fans, and non car racing fan Catholics connected the two, which I find completely illogical and irrational, and therefore, equally interesting and fascinating.

He was beloved by F1 fans because he put on a good show.

Take a look at Hoop Dreams, it's about Basketball, sure, but whats so fascinating about the film isn't the act of playing the sport. It's about the kids at the center of the picture, their dreams, the process of maturity and the eventual realization that the dream isn't attainable. Any great movie goes deeper than the surface. Raging Bull isn't about boxing so much as a very insecure, hateful man.......

As for Senna, I was merely acknowledging the fact that he's got his fans. There's not much of an argument, as we both agree the film short hands this icon.

Now, why exactly do you say the film is poorly edited?

[Lepidopterous]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Take a look at Hoop Dreams, it's about Basketball, sure, but whats so fascinating about the film isn't the act of playing the sport. It's about the kids at the center of the picture, their dreams, maturity and the eventual realization that the dream isn't attainable. Any great movie goes deeper than the surface. Raging Bull isn't about boxing so much as a very insecure, hateful man.......

The Wrestler is a great one too.

A drama is a drama. Whether about sports or hip-hop or what not, what's involving is watching that passion and love for something, whatever that thing may be.

Sometimes, the sport is just the setting, taking a backseat to the drama. Other times it is what the film is about, at times with that cliche buzzer beater at the end.

[Lepidopterous]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

[Show spoiler]Wow. I thought the film took an amazing man's story (from an amazing world) and turned it into

a big snoozefest.

[Show spoiler]I found the storytelling disjointed and the editing poor. And even though its a doc, not a drama,

the film itself should possess at least some of the charisma and passion of the man and the sport it depicts. It felt cold and sterile to me.

[Show spoiler]While watching it I honestly asked myself

"How on Earth could they make a film about Senna and F1 and have it come out boring? Its impossible."

Did we see the same film?

Honestly, I'm thinking the same thing right now!

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by DjMethod

Honestly, I'm thinking the same thing right now!

Don't get me wrong, it was pretty enjoyable and an easy reccomend. It's just tat those few lingering details have kept me from really liking the film. But seriously DJ, top ten docs ever? Are you not that into docs? There are probably ten Errol Morris films I'd take before Senna.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by DjMethod

The Wrestler is a great one too.

A drama is a drama. Whether about sports or hip-hop or what not, what's involving is watching that passion and love for something, whatever that thing may be.

Sometimes, the sport is just the setting, taking a backseat to the drama. Other times it is what the film is about, at times with that cliche buzzer beater at the end.

Nicely put.

[Lepidopterous]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Don't get me wrong, it was pretty enjoyable and an easy reccomend. It's just tat those few lingering details have kept me from really liking the film. But seriously DJ, top ten docs ever? Are you not that into docs? There are probably ten Errol Morris films I'd take before Senna.

Top ten that I've seen, yes. So...? I do like docs. It's not my favorite genre but I think it's silly to assume that because I find Senna so appealing, I must not like the genre (I guess I can't recognize a good documentary. ). It has its downsides... Feels like watching the news--more informative, less escapism. But it's a rich genre that expands perspective. I've only given a handful a 4.5 or higher and Senna was one of them. Grizzly Man, Last Train Home, and Night and Fog (short) are some others that stuck with me.

[jvince]

Pigeon: Impossible - YouTube

Pigeon: Impossible (2009)
dir. Lucas Martell

The Good: That darn pigeon. A few amusing moments. Decent animation.

The Bad: Plot and execution need a little work.

The Bottom Line: A serviceably fun Pixar wannabe.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by DjMethod

Top ten that I've seen, yes. So...? I do like docs. It's not my favorite genre but I think it's silly to assume that because I find Senna so appealing, I must not like the genre (I guess I can't recognize a good documentary. ). It has its downsides... Feels like watching the news--more informative, less escapism. But it's a rich genre that expands perspective. I've only given a handful a 4.5 or higher and Senna was one of them. Grizzly Man, Last Train Home, and Night and Fog (short) are some others that stuck with me.

Have you seen the House is Black (which if you liked Night and Fog, you'll really love this), The Thin Blue Line, Crumb, For All Mankind, Man with a Movie Camera, High School, Gates of Heaven, Capturing the Friedmans, Nanook of the North, Aileen Wuornos: the selling of a serial killer, Hotel Terminus, Man on Wire, Fog of War, Hearts of Darkness, Roger & Me, Gimme Shelter, Stop Making Sense, inside Job, Fast Cheap and Out of Control, Waltz with Bashir (if it counts)...

Sorry, I got carried away. But needless to say, there are scores if great docs. i immediately listed The House is Black because along with Night and Fog, it's one of the most potent 20 minutes in cinema. It's harrowing, poetic and full of life.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Mahatma

Please don't make Senna into a saint.It won't fit.

If you read my posts carefully, you can see that I dont. He was perceived as one by millions of people, but not by me.

And as all sports superstars have, he had his share of haters as well.

[legendarymatt92]

Originally Posted by DjMethod

The Wrestler is a great one too.

A drama is a drama. Whether about sports or hip-hop or what not, what's involving is watching that passion and love for something, whatever that thing may be.

Sometimes, the sport is just the setting, taking a backseat to the drama. Other times it is what the film is about, at times with that cliche buzzer beater at the end.

I agree for the most part, but I'd be less absorbed in a documentary about something I didn't like than one about something I did, regardless of the amount of passion or drama. Films and docs have to hook an audience to get an emotional response, and they're less likely to do that if they don't interest the person watching for whatever reason.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by DjMethod

Catholics didn't connect the two

Sure they did. It doesnt matter that Senna made the same connection, or that he made it first (*connection introduced*). They did make the connection, by following him, you say so your self.....

Originally Posted by DjMethod

So the Brazilian people looked up to that as a source of national/religious pride.

(*Connection completed*)

There is nothing illogical/irrational about that.

A gazillion Catholic non car racing fans became overnight "car racing fans" because a Catholic man said God gave him a talent for speed. When Senna died, they stopped following the sport. They werent following the car racer because he was fast, they were fans because he was Catholic. IMO that is irrational and illogical from a sport/fan viewpoint. I'd like to emphasize that that is not meant to be a derogatory comment about Catholics, it's just my observation about bizarre fan behavior and group mentality. People going to car races, or watching car races on TV, who actually dont give a hoot about car racing. Koo-koo IMO.

Its different when your son/daughter takes up a hobby/sport that you dont care about. You do your duty and go to the games/events to support your child. But following/worshiping a random stranger, in a sport you dont care about?

Valentino Rossi is even more of a mystery. He has never mentioned his religeous beliefs. He isnt handsome. He doesnt have that perfect smile. Yet he has a wildly rabid fan base that is so large that when he retires, the viewership of MotoGP will take a significant Global hit. Large enough that TV contracts will be renegotiated downward. The profitability of the series will probably be strained. I find it strange and fascinating how an athlete can gather many millions of followers who are not actually fans of the sport. It's crazy. They dont understand the bikes, they dont understand the racing strategies, they dont care, they dont want to see Rossi race, they dont want to Rossi win, they just want to see Rossi. To me, it's fanboyism + herd mentality = weird.

As a person, he's a hero in the many ways you have described. Senna was both remarkably charitable and extremely competitive.

I find this fascinating too. Before he died he was considered a hard ass, aggressive, fierce competitor. To the nth degree. It wasnt until after his death that the charitable part was discovered, yet while he was alive he amassed an enormous number of followers. Non car racing fan followers.

[surfdude12]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

They werent following the car racer because he was fast, they were fans because he was Catholic.

Unless they only like fast catholics?



No but seriously, I know what you mean 100%. I feel the same way with non-golfer Tiger Woods fans. Many of them are friends of mine. Most of them say "I hate watching golf, it soooo boring. Unless Tiger is playing."
Personally, if I think a sport is "boring", I'm not watching it! I don't care who is playing!

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Take a look at Hoop Dreams, it's about Basketball, sure, but whats so fascinating about the film isn't the act of playing the sport. It's about the kids at the center of the picture, their dreams, the process of maturity and the eventual realization that the dream isn't attainable. Any great movie goes deeper than the surface. Raging Bull isn't about boxing so much as a very insecure, hateful man.......

I see your point. I was just thinking that in a "Sports" movie, even though the meassge may be team work, and/or comaraderie, and/or will and dtermination, that the "Sports" would get in the way and bother you, since you dislike them. Do you actually dislike sports, or is it just a meh, they do nothing for you kinda thing?

Now, why exactly do you say the film is poorly edited?

I tried to find my review, but it was lost in The Great Blu-ray.Com Vacuum Pugre a few months ago.

My main beef was wasn not the speed ot the style, it was chronological continuity blunders.

Also, I love nonlinear storytelling in films, especially thrillers. But, IMO there is no reason to employ that technique in documentaries. It's structure was too random and distracting for my tastes. My preference is start at "A", educate me, in order, finish at "Z"

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Have you seen the House is Black (which if you liked Night and Fog, you'll really love this), The Thin Blue Line, Crumb, For All Mankind, Man with a Movie Camera, High School, Gates of Heaven, Capturing the Friedmans, Nanook of the North, Aileen Wuornos: the selling of a serial killer, Hotel Terminus, Man on Wire, Fog of War, Hearts of Darkness, Roger & Me, Gimme Shelter, Stop Making Sense, inside Job, Fast Cheap and Out of Control, Waltz with Bashir (if it counts)...

Sorry, I got carried away. But needless to say, there are scores if great docs. i immediately listed The House is Black because along with Night and Fog, it's one of the most potent 20 minutes in cinema. It's harrowing, poetic and full of life.

And the winner is....

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by DjMethod

The Wrestler is a great one too.

A drama is a drama. Whether about sports or hip-hop or what not, what's involving is watching that passion and love for something, whatever that thing may be.

There is a line though, at least for me anyway.

I could never watch a documentary about hunting. Ever.

As I mentioned earlier, I dislike rap and hiphop. I am NSE (< Thanks Roger). I dont get it. There must be some value/quality to it becaue a zillion people are tapping their toes and strutting their bling in time. It works for them. But my dislike is quite jumbo. It grates my nerves like fingernails on a chalkboard.

Years ago a buddy recommended 8 Mile. I told him I couldnt see it because of the music. He told me it was a good drama with some heavy stuff about relationships included. OK, I thought, I'll give it a shot. I couldnt get past the music. It felt like it "invaded" the whole movie. Music competiton? Sounds cool to me, like those old Battles of the Bands, but not when the only thing I care about is Make-It-Stop-Turn-It-Off-Now-Please. I'm just not skilled enough to disconnect from it I guess.