Alfred Hitchcock's Best Film (sound)

[Jett Rink]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Am I the only one who finds the Jimmy Stewart character in Vertigo to be a total douchebag?

He was used and abused, I would be douchy too.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jett Rink

He was used and abused, I would be douchy too.

Well there was the part where

[Show spoiler]his old friend hired him to follow his mentally disturbed wife and within a day or two Jimmy Stewart tries to steal her away.

Also the part where Jimmy Stewart

[Show spoiler]mentally tortures and pressures a woman into completely changing her physical appearance to resemble the dead woman he tried to steal from his old friend.

...so there's that.

[Jett Rink]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Well there was the part where

[Show spoiler]his old friend hired him to follow his mentally disturbed wife and within a day or two Jimmy Stewart tries to steal her away.

Also the part where Jimmy Stewart

[Show spoiler]mentally tortures and pressures a woman into completely changing her physical appearance to resemble the dead woman he tried to steal from his old friend.

...so there's that.

Yes, I forgot about that.

[CouncilSpectre]

Rear Window

Followed by Vertigo and Lifeboat

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Am I the only one who finds the Jimmy Stewart character in Vertigo to be a total douchebag?

No you are not, that's the point. I would say anybody who appreciates the film understands him to be a deeply troubled and troubling character. During the film he gets diagnosed with two mental disorders, which should give you a clue as to how emotionally stable a character he is supposed to be. Vertigo is among the most analysed Hollywood films in film theory and film criticism and you won't find a single one of those writers mistaking Scottie Ferguson for a hero.

I'm genuinely curious, but what did you think he's supposed to be or what people who admire the film think he represents ?

Hitchcock films are full of deeply flawed protagonists who blur the line between hero and villain, many of whom like Scottie suffer from some type of neurosis or mental disorder, frequently caused by emotional trauma.

Hitchcock enjoyed casting villains and anti-heroes with actors who had a clean cut image. Anthony Perkins for instance mostly played the juvenile, romantic lead before he played Norman Bates. Hitchcock enjoyed subverting the image of an actor like Stewart who usually played upstanding guys. All three lead roles the All American James Stewart played for Hitchcock had an increasingly dark edge to them. The marriage to Doris Day in The Man Who Knew to Much is implied to be a not entirely happy one thanks to Stewart's husband being controlling and in Rear Window he played a voyeur. In Vertigo he played his darkest role yet for Hitchcock. Ultimately Scottie

[Show spoiler]destroys the woman he claims to love

in more way than one.

I'm far to old to use the term "douchebag" though, especially in regard to a film by Hitchcock or a character played by Stewart.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

And I assumed the question was asking which film do you think, objectively, is the best film he ever made.

Not, "What's your personal favorite Hitchcock film?"

...though I have no doubt that many people will be incapable of answering the first question and not the second.

I believe rating films "objectively" is impossible and that it all boils down to people's favorites, whether they'll admit it or not.

Anyway, Rear Window used to be my favorite but it eventually was overtaken by Vertigo.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

I believe rating films "objectively" is impossible and that it all boils down to people's favorites, whether they'll admit it or not.

Anyway, Rear Window used to be my favorite but it eventually was overtaken by Vertigo.

Vertigo is not my favorite Hitchcock film.

...but I believe it's the best film he ever made by a wide margin.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Vertigo is not my favorite Hitchcock film.

...but I believe it's the best film he ever made by a wide margin.

You already said that.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

No you are not, that's the point. I would say anybody who appreciates the film understands him to be a deeply troubled and troubling character. During the film he gets diagnosed with two mental disorders, which should give you a clue as to how emotionally stable a character he is supposed to be. Vertigo is among the most analysed Hollywood films in film theory and film criticism and you won't find a single one of those writers mistaking Scottie Ferguson for a hero.

I'm genuinely curious, but what did you think he's supposed to be or what people who admire the film think he represents ?

Hitchcock films are full of deeply flawed protagonists who blur the line between hero and villain, many of whom like Scottie suffer from some type of neurosis or mental disorder, frequently caused by emotional trauma.

Hitchcock enjoyed casting villains and anti-heroes with actors who had a clean cut image. Anthony Perkins for instance mostly played the juvenile, romantic lead before he played Norman Bates. Hitchcock enjoyed subverting the image of an actor like Stewart who usually played upstanding guys. All three lead roles the All American James Stewart played for Hitchcock had an increasingly dark edge to them. The marriage to Doris Day in The Man Who Knew to Much is implied to be a not entirely happy one thanks to Stewart's husband being controlling and in Rear Window he played a voyeur. In Vertigo he played his darkest role yet for Hitchcock. Ultimately Scottie

[Show spoiler]destroys the woman he claims to love

in more way than one.

I'm far to old to use the term "douchebag" though, especially in regard to a film by Hitchcock or a character played by Stewart.

I think we're so used to the good guy persona that Jimmy Stewart adopted in almost every one of his films, that it takes some people a few viewings before they start to realize that his character in Vertigo is a morally weak human being.

I view his vertigo affliction as a metaphor for his weakness as a man.

But because it's Jimmy Stewart, I think a lot of people just assume he's the typical heroic protagonist.

...but he's one of the most unlikable protagonists in movie history.

...for me at least.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

You already said that.

And you said that rating movies objectively is impossible.

Which it clearly isn't, based on my own decision to exclude my personal favorite Hitchcock film from this thread.

...so I felt some redundancy was justified.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

I view his vertigo affliction as a metaphor for his weakness as a man..

That's what Scottie himself would think as he was made to believe that his vertigo stopped him from saving the woman he loved. Only it didn't. A metaphor only works when it's paralleled and supported by the plot and Scottie's vertigo as a weakness turns out to have been a red herring. In fact the moment when Scottie really causes the death of the woman he loves comes when he conquers his vertigo, therefore the metaphor you propose doesn't work.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

And you said that rating movies objectively is impossible.

Which it clearly isn't, based on my own decision to exclude my personal favorite Hitchcock film from this thread.

...so I felt some redundancy was justified.

Yes it is. Films are by their very nature subjective.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

That's what Scottie himself would think as he was made to believe that his vertigo stopped him from saving the woman he loved. Only it didn't. A metaphor only works if it's paralleled and supported by the plot and Scottie's vertigo as a weakness turns out to have been a red herring. In fact the moment when Scottie really causes the death of the woman he loves comes when he conquers his vertigo, therefore the metaphor you propose doesn't work.

What you're saying only points to the idea that he was able to achieve some measure of personal growth as a character--that he was able to overcome his moral weakness, even though it wasn't enough to save the woman he loved.

It doesn't invalidate the idea that his vertigo was symbolic of his own personal frailty.

"That's what Scottie himself would think as he was made to believe that his vertigo stopped him from saving the woman he loved. Only it didn't...Scottie's vertigo as a weakness turns out to have been a red herring."

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here?

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Infernal King

Yes it is. Films are by their very nature subjective.

Regardless of whether the concept of total objectivity is actually achievable with respect to film criticism, there is a difference between saying "I liked Rear Window better than Vertigo" and "I analyzed the individual components of both films and came to the conclusion that Vertigo is superior, even though Rear Window is more in line with my own personal sensibilities."

...any decent film critic tries to do the latter.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

What you're saying only points to the idea that he was able to achieve some personal growth as a character--that he was able to overcome his moral weakness, even though it wasn't enough to save the woman he love.

...it doesn't invalidate the idea that his vertigo was symbolic of his own personal frailty.

That's not at all what I was saying. Scottie does find out the conspiracy to murder in which he was a mere pawn but that doesn't make him grow into a better person. It's not just that he can't save the woman he loves, he is ultimately responsible for her death. First he attempts to erase Judy (a real person) by turning her back into the fake Madeline (a fraud) to sustain his romantic delusion and then he is implicated in causing her death. Where does he overcome a "moral weakness" (whatever that's supposed to mean anyway) ?

To say that a mental illness like a debilitating phobia is a metaphor for a moral weakness would actually pretty crude. What would it archive to have one psychological "weakness" be a metaphor for a different psychological weakness anyway ? Metaphors are not that simple. For the real subtext and metaphors of the film, you have to dig a little deeper rather than to draw such an obvious parallel. Much has been written and theorised about them. Vertigo is all about a devastatingly bleak take on male/female romantic relationships.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

"That's what Scottie himself would think as he was made to believe that his vertigo stopped him from saving the woman he loved. Only it didn't...Scottie's vertigo as a weakness turns out to have been a red herring."

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here?

I'm saying that Scottie was tricked into thinking his vertigo caused the death of the woman he thinks of as being Madeline. He can't forgive himself for that "weakness" the fact that he thinks he couldn't save her due to his debilitating condition. But it turns out that wasn't the case at all. His vertigo was exploited to facilitate Scottie becoming an unreliable witness and getting the murderer off free. The vertigo turns out to be a red herring around which the mystery of the plot revolves. Scottie is made to think his vertigo is a moral failing (not being able to save the life of "Madeline") but it wasn't, it was a con. Therefore it makes no sense that what is set up as a moral failing that ultimately isn't real, would be a metaphor for a real one.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

That's not at all what I was saying. Scottie does find out the conspiracy to murder in which he was a mere pawn but that doesn't make him grow into a better person. It's not just that he can't save the woman he loves, he is ultimately responsible for her death. First he attempts to erase Judy (a real person) by turning her back into the fake Madeline (a fraud) to sustain his romantic delusion and then he is implicated in causing her death. Where does he overcome a "moral weakness" (whatever that's supposed to mean anyway) ?

To say that a mental illness like a debilitating phobia is a metaphor for a moral weakness would actually pretty crude. What would it archive to have one psychological "weakness" be a metaphor for a different psychological weakness anyway ? Metaphors are not that simple. For the real subtext and metaphors of the film, you have to dig a little deeper rather than to draw such an obvious parallel. Much has been written and theorised about them. Vertigo is all about a devastatingly bleak take on male/female romantic relationships.

Okay, I'm not interested in getting into a intellectual d-measuring contest with you on this.

You can have your opinion and I have can have mine.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Okay, I'm not interested in getting into a intellectual d-measuring contest with you on this.

You can have your opinion and I have can have mine.

I suppose this is what it always comes down to with slightly more indepth discussions about film on this forum which go beyond "does it have a slip ?" Someone points out that they are entitled to their opinion.

[Hindustani]

I picked VERTIGO first

But decided to change to NORTH BY NORTHWEST.

Both great films. but again, Hitchcock had too many masterpieces.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by Todd Tomorrow

I'm saying that Scottie was tricked into thinking his vertigo caused the death of the woman he thinks of as being Madeline. He can't forgive himself for that "weakness" the fact that he thinks he couldn't save her due to his debilitating condition. But it turns out that wasn't the case at all. His vertigo was exploited to facilitate Scottie becoming an unreliable witness and getting the murderer off free. The vertigo turns out to be a red herring around which the mystery of the plot revolves. Scottie is made to think his vertigo is a moral failing (not being able to save the life of "fake Madeline") but it wasn't, it was a con. Therefore it makes no sense that what is set up as a moral failing that ultimately isn't real would be a metaphor for a real one.

But Scottie is morally weak.

And the decisions he makes and the actions he takes based on what he thinks is going on, reflect that.

The fact that's he's being conned the whole time doesn't wipe away his personal frailty--both psychological and physical. The vertigo is symbolic of that.