FX's "American Crime Story: The Assassination Of Gianni Versace (Season 2)

[bootsy]

Originally Posted by cuzzin

Cochran's tactics were as dirty and unethical as they get. He made race a major part of the case when it had nothing to do with it. As Darden said, this was about the m-word, not the n-word. Regarding Fuhrman, to paraphrase Clark's own words, if the defense could not show that Fuhrman actually planted evidence, then there was no reason to bring up how he felt about African Americans. It was irrelevant. But Cochran could not win by refuting the evidence. He based his entire defense around OJ's blackness.

He did make race a major part of it but that's his job is to get his client off and he did what he had to do. The prosecution's mistake was putting Fuhrman on the stand and having OJ try on the glove. Those two things killed their case. They couldn't recover from that. If they don't put Fuhrman on the stand I don't know if OJ goes free. Fuhrman's racist views as a cop and as the lead in this case was so damaging to the prosecution that Cochran almost had no choice but to use race. If he didn't he wouldn't be doing his job.

I absolutely loved what Darden said to Cochran after the trial about this trial will change nothing about race and that we(blacks) will still be mistreated and abused by cops and well that's still true. I also loved when Darden told him he never left or forgot that he was black. I always thought OJ was guilty and was angry when he got off. I'm probably one of the few black people on this Earth that couldn't stand OJ during that trial.

[Fasteddie516]

Originally Posted by AnamorphicWidescreen

Just saw the final episode. Excellent, as was the rest of the series. The only complaint I had was that it was too short - they skipped over a LOT of interesting sequences from the trial itself. Where was the interview with Kato K., or the dog-walking neighbor who originally found the two bodies?!

In any case, seeing this finale reminded me of the huge cheering I & many others heard after the OJ verdict was reached back in October '95.

Several points:

1) I am 100% fine with the casting of CGJ as OJ. Sure, he doesn't physically look like OJ, but he's a great actor, is roughly the same age OJ was at the time, and IMHO acted pretty much like OJ during the trial. Plus, OJ has very little dialogue on this show, and isn't actually seen on screen a huge amount either.

The CGJ casting decision kind of reminds me of how I felt when I first saw the bio-pic Nixon (1995); it starred Anthony Hopkins in the title role. And, though AH looks & sounds nothing like Nixon, he captured the mannerisms/persona of Nixon so well that the physical appearance aspect didn't bother me too much; I felt he did a great job in the role.

The casting of the other actors was amazing. The actor(s) who played Johnnie Cochran, Marcia Clark, and Judge Ito were especially spot-on - superb casting here.

2) The show was also great re: making me aware of other aspects of the trial, that I had either forgotten or never paid attention to when it was actually happening:

I.e., I had forgotten that the jury was sequestered for 8 months - WTF?! Horrible. I can't imagine being out of touch with everything for that long, being away from work, etc. I don't know how most of these people kept their jobs - unless they were retired. There should be a law against having trials last this long - sickening.

It was funny seeing that one young woman go "nuts" on the series - or, "appear" to go nuts...presumably so she could get out of continuing to serve on the jury.

I'm sure the cost of this trial ran well into the millions. Just housing & feeding that jury in an expensive hotel for 8 months must have cost a pretty penny. Your taxpayer dollars at work....

3) I didn't know that OJ wore latex gloves when he tried the leather gloves on - so, of course the leather gloves didn't fit! Just wearing the latex gloves would keep the leather gloves from fitting properly. And, it should be common knowledge that leather tends to shrink when it's moistened - as these gloves were. Also, it was extremely foolish for the prosecution to have had OJ try the gloves on - even Marcia thought this was a bad idea (if that's really the way it happened). I wonder if F. Lee Bailey actually whispered to Darden that if the prosecution didn't ask OJ to try the gloves on, the defense would? I doubt the defense would have asked OJ to try on the gloves (even if they did threaten to).

4) If OJ didn't commit these heinous crimes, how did his blood/DNA end up at the murder scene?! And, how did the blood/DNA/hair of Nicole & Ron end up all over his car, his house, etc.?! Going along with this, IIRC he had cut(s) on his hands when he was caught. His guilt seems straightforward to me.

I don't believe Mark F. - or anyone else - planted any evidence. Not because I don't believe the authorities aren't capable of it - or that they wouldn't do it if it served their purposes....but because there was so much blood/DNA/hair evidence already there that they wouldn't have needed to. Yes, Mark F. was dishonest by not coming clean on his racist statements - however, that doesn't mean that he would have stooped so low as to plant evidence on a case where the prosecution should already have had more than enough to begin with....

Plus, when would this evidence have been planted?! The crime scene was not discovered by LE - it was discovered by a neighbor walking his dog who alerted them. This type of crime was very unusual for that upscale part of L.A. - so obviously the authorities wouldn't have been cruising that neighborhood.

Plus, as has already been stated, the LAPD definitely did not "have it in" for OJ before this crime took place - he had already been given more than one pass by them when they were previously called (more than once, apparently) re: his domestic abuse against Nicole.

5) Re: the outcome of the trial: it's interesting that back in '95, based on the jurors' decision - most of the jurors in the trial obviously didn't believe OJ was guilty....nor did all of the people who cheered when the innocent verdict was reached. However, these days, if you talk to most people they'll say they believe OJ was guilty....

So, why did OJ get a not guilty verdict? I think there were four main reasons for this:

-Judge Ito stupidly allowing the trial to be televised. Obviously Ito wanted to make a name for himself. As a result, public opinion had a lot to do with the outcome here, when it shouldn't have. For that matter, Ito shouldn't even have BEEN the judge on this trial since there was a conflict of interest re: his wife (a LE officer) having had negative run-ins with Mark F.

-The decision by the prosecution to call Mark F. to the stand - incredibly foolish.

- The decision by the prosecution to have OJ try on the gloves - also incredibly foolish.

-It's obvious that DNA testing hadn't been around that long back in 1994/1995, when the crime & later trial took place. A lot of people at that time didn't really have a clue on how accurate this was in establishing someone's identity.

Of course, we'll never know 100% how this trial would have played out under different circumstances.

Thankfully, OJ lost that civil trial in '97. Which reminds me - I want to see a mini-series about that, too!

You can watch a Documentary on OJ Civil Trial. It's on Tomorrow night on the History Channel at 8pm called "OJ Speaks: The HiddenTapes". It's very interesting to see actual deposition tapes of OJ during the Civil Trial. Also, after that at 10:00pm is another OJ Documentary called "The Secret Tapes of the OJ Case: The Untold Story".
Both of these Documentaries are very well done and pretty telling of his Guilt.

[AnamorphicWidescreen]

Originally Posted by bootsy

He did make race a major part of it but that's his job is to get his client off and he did what he had to do. The prosecution's mistake was putting Fuhrman on the stand and having OJ try on the glove. Those two things killed their case. They couldn't recover from that. If they don't put Fuhrman on the stand I don't know if OJ goes free. Fuhrman's racist views as a cop and as the lead in this case was so damaging to the prosecution that Cochran almost had no choice but to use race. If he didn't he wouldn't be doing his job.

I agree with you. The prosecution made a HUGE mistake both in putting Mark F. on the stand & also with the glove fiasco. Very stupid & sloppy decisions here, which definitely cost them this case. With all of the blood/DNA evidence this should have been an open & shut case - instead, the trial dragged on for 8 months, disrupted a lot of people's lives (including of course the jurors), and cost the state millions of dollars - not least of which were those expensive hotel rooms for the jurors & their catered meals. Your tax dollars at work!

Here's something else I've been thinking about after seeing this mini-series, and was wondering what others thought about this:

IF the prosecution had been smart & had NOT called up M.F. to the stand & also didn't have OJ try on the gloves, would the defense attorneys have done either of these things?! I have a feeling they wouldn't have, but at the same time I'm unsure. I question whether JC would have wanted to call up MF to the stand. I also don't think they knew ahead of time that the gloves wouldn't fit (or wouldn't appear to fit - I think OJ manipulated his fingers so they wouldn't fit), so they wouldn't have wanted to take a chance with this, either.

However, since the prosecution did both of these things, we'll never know how this may have played out...

[JeffTheMovieGuy]

It also doesn't surprise me that blood from all 3 (OJ, Nicole and Ron) were found at the scene but also everywhere else, the amount of cross contamination at the murder location was outstanding.

[Riddler The Slag]

This show is awards bait! Outstanding series. Courtney Vance and Sarah Poulson are going to be collecting every award they so rightfully deserve.

[coalesce99]

Originally Posted by bootsy

He did make race a major part of it but that's his job is to get his client off and he did what he had to do. The prosecution's mistake was putting Fuhrman on the stand and having OJ try on the glove. Those two things killed their case. They couldn't recover from that. If they don't put Fuhrman on the stand I don't know if OJ goes free. Fuhrman's racist views as a cop and as the lead in this case was so damaging to the prosecution that Cochran almost had no choice but to use race. If he didn't he wouldn't be doing his job.

I absolutely loved what Darden said to Cochran after the trial about this trial will change nothing about race and that we(blacks) will still be mistreated and abused by cops and well that's still true. I also loved when Darden told him he never left or forgot that he was black. I always thought OJ was guilty and was angry when he got off. I'm probably one of the few black people on this Earth that couldn't stand OJ during that trial.

I live in Missouri. My first thought was "Ferguson" when Darden said that to Cochran.

It's a common misconception that defense attorneys are scum. Not so. It's a vital part of American law to be able to defend one's self against charges brought forth by the state.

A friend of mine who is an attorney once told me that the job of the defense isn't to defend this lowlife/murderer/rapist/etc., the job of the defense is to KEEP THE STATE HONEST. So true.

[AnamorphicWidescreen]

Sure - I understand what you're saying here. I don't blame JC for defending someone he was probably sure was guilty of murder. After all, we're all entitled to a defense.

I do blame the prosecution for being sloppy & overconfident that they would win this case, when they should have instead been much more careful/cautious - as I mentioned in my last post.

I also blame Judge Ito for allowing cameras into the courtroom - when he shouldn't have done so. He just wanted this for selfish reasons (i.e., he wanted to make a name for himself), and this definitely backfired.

[cuzzin]

Originally Posted by Fasteddie516

You can watch a Documentary on OJ Civil Trial. It's on Tomorrow night on the History Channel at 8pm called "OJ Speaks: The HiddenTapes". It's very interesting to see actual deposition tapes of OJ during the Civil Trial. Also, after that at 10:00pm is another OJ Documentary called "The Secret Tapes of the OJ Case: The Untold Story".
Both of these Documentaries are very well done and pretty telling of his Guilt.

Thanks for pointing this out. Watching some of it now. I gotta say, the more footage I watch of the real OJ, the more I realize how horribly miscast Cuba was. He's not even close.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by cuzzin

Thanks for pointing this out. Watching some of it now. I gotta say, the more footage I watch of the real OJ, the more I realize how horribly miscast Cuba was. He's not even close.

Agreed. While everyone else (even the dire Travolta was decent in the last few Eps) seemed to at least grow into their roles by the end of the series, Gooding never really grasped his role convincingly.

After struggling with the first 3 average to bungled Eps it really hit its stride once it hit the courtroom and as a whole its one of Murphy's better attempts.

Paulson, Brown and Vance were all stellar!

I'd give it a solid 7.5 as a whole.

[JeffTheMovieGuy]

I saw a Cuba Gooding Jr interview before the series started and he said that he wouldn't say if he believes that OJ was guilty or innocent but he would put it into his performance. I didn't really pick up on that unless he was talking about in the finale where he seemed more upset that the party was over than the fact that Nicole was gone.

[Jacques Souvenir]

I also blame Judge Ito for allowing cameras into the courtroom - when he shouldn't have done so. He just wanted this for selfish reasons (i.e., he wanted to make a name for himself), and this definitely backfired.

Everyone likes to give Ito crap about being a media *****, but to this day out of all the major players, hes the only one who hasn't written a book about the trial.

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by cuzzin

Cochran's tactics were as dirty and unethical as they get. He made race a major part of the case when it had nothing to do with it. As Darden said, this was about the m-word, not the n-word. Regarding Fuhrman, to paraphrase Clark's own words, if the defense could not show that Fuhrman actually planted evidence, then there was no reason to bring up how he felt about African Americans. It was irrelevant. But Cochran could not win by refuting the evidence. He based his entire defense around OJ's blackness.

You mean aside from the fact that he plead the 5th when asked whether or not he planted evidence in the OJ case?

[Ray Jackson]

Last night I finished watching the reruns and I have to say, I was pretty blown away.

One of the best mini series I've ever seen.

Quite a few spine-chilling moments.

Doesn't matter which side of the fence you come down on regarding OJ's guilt/innocence or the racial stuff.

...there's something for everybody.

[cuzzin]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

You mean aside from the fact that he plead the 5th when asked whether or not he planted evidence in the OJ case?

Yes, but that was after the defense decided to float the theory that Fuhrman planted evidence. And Fuhrman contends that he plead the fifth to that question because the fifth amendment is "not a pick-and-choose."

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VZnwTOzdznY

[JeffTheMovieGuy]

Originally Posted by cuzzin

Yes, but that was after the defense decided to float the theory that Fuhrman planted evidence. And Fuhrman contends that he plead the fifth to that question because the fifth amendment is "not a pick-and-choose."

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VZnwTOzdznY

The followup question should have been

[blurayfriend]

Is there a clip of the actual Fuhrman pleading the fifth in court? Would like to see the reactions of those around him.

[JeffTheMovieGuy]

Originally Posted by blurayfriend

Is there a clip of the actual Fuhrman pleading the fifth in court? Would like to see the reactions of those around him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isDPecYKEjM

Unfortunately somebody added a score to the video but if you listen closely you can hear some groans of disapproval

[Ray Jackson]

Originally Posted by cuzzin

Yes, but that was after the defense decided to float the theory that Fuhrman planted evidence. And Fuhrman contends that he plead the fifth to that question because the fifth amendment is "not a pick-and-choose."

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VZnwTOzdznY

Anyway you try to explain it, a homicide detective pleading the 5th when directly asked if he planted evidence in a murder trial raises legitimate questions about the reliability of material evidence gathered by the police.

Don't get me wrong...I assume OJ did it.

But Cochran and company did what any good team of defense lawyers would do for their client. Furhman is a racist piece of garbage who never should've been put on the stand to begin with. Cochran had to do whatever he could to exploit that.

[cuzzin]

Originally Posted by JeffTheMovieGuy

Unfortunately somebody added a score to the video

Here is one without the music:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=HzsMSbbMfg0

Something to note: the jury was not present during this exchange and was not told about this. (Guilt or innocence is not to be taken into account if someone pleads the fifth.) All they were told was that he was unavailable for further questioning.

[Lacit170]

Originally Posted by Impossible

And every scene Travolta is unwatchable in......

i said the same thing at first but was told that the person in real life acted just like that and Travolta nailed it...

Originally Posted by AnamorphicWidescreen

In any case, seeing this finale reminded me of the huge cheering I & many others heard after the OJ verdict was reached back in October '95.

Several points:

4) If OJ didn't commit these heinous crimes, how did his blood/DNA end up at the murder scene?! And, how did the blood/DNA/hair of Nicole & Ron end up all over his car, his house, etc.?! Going along with this, IIRC he had cut(s) on his hands when he was caught. His guilt seems straightforward to me.

5) Re: the outcome of the trial: it's interesting that back in '95, based on the jurors' decision - most of the jurors in the trial obviously didn't believe OJ was guilty....nor did all of the people who cheered when the innocent verdict was reached. However, these days, if you talk to most people they'll say they believe OJ was guilty....

So, why did OJ get a not guilty verdict? I think there were four main reasons for this:

-Judge Ito stupidly allowing the trial to be televised. Obviously Ito wanted to make a name for himself. As a result, public opinion had a lot to do with the outcome here, when it shouldn't have. For that matter, Ito shouldn't even have BEEN the judge on this trial since there was a conflict of interest re: his wife (a LE officer) having had negative run-ins with Mark F.

Thankfully, OJ lost that civil trial in '97. Which reminds me - I want to see a mini-series about that, too!

doesnt your #4 and #5 contradict each other? you say it seems pretty straight forward hes guilty but then you say most people believed he was innocent but if asked now, people think hes guilty. i dont think any of that is true anyway. i think the show depicted clearly enough that race was the reason he got off and thats the only reason. personally, i cannot recall knowing anyone who thought he was innocent back then or today

Originally Posted by JeffTheMovieGuy

I saw a Cuba Gooding Jr interview before the series started and he said that he wouldn't say if he believes that OJ was guilty or innocent but he would put it into his performance. I didn't really pick up on that unless he was talking about in the finale where he seemed more upset that the party was over than the fact that Nicole was gone.

id say the most telling scene was his speech at his party vowing to find the killer and barely anyone clapped. the look on his face, the elephant in the room being that everyone knew he was guilty but no one wanted to talk about it (obviously) and then Kardashian leaving. the look between the two said it all... OJ knew why he was leaving and wasnt going to push the issue defending himself further

great series!