2160p/Fourk UhD hdr streaming vs 1080p Bd Sdr thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I wonder though, although HDR10 is mastered at 1000 nits, how many of those highlights actually get close to that? Probably most of the highlight only get up in the middle range anyway 400-600 nits. After all, the new DV TVs only get up to that, and people are going gaga over bit rate starved VUDU HDR content. So it makes me wonder how much of this upper end actually being used?

Is the difference in brightness between a 20 watt light bulb and a 200 watt light bulb the same proportionally between 100 and 1000 nits?

I dunno about the light bulb question but overall, yes: that's what HDTV test were getting at when they did that whole 'not good for daylight viewing' thing, that the average light levels on show aren't majorly different from one format to another, it's only in the brightest specular highlights where the highest 1000 nit peaks are being registered. I've done some checking with my colourimeter on the highlights but not on lower brightness parts of the scene, I'll compare some of those when I get a sec.

Besides, the UHDA's HDR requirement for OLED maxes out at 400 nits anyway, does it not? And I ain't saying my LCD TV has a contrast ratio anywhere remotely near what OLED can do so it's not an apples to apples comparison but still: the 400 nit peak on my own set is eminently capable of providing a distinctly superior dynamic range to 100 nit SDR (though being able to pass something of the WCG helps tremendously though, I'm not sure a SDR 709 conversion would look as good).

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Is the difference in brightness between a 20 watt light bulb and a 200 watt light bulb the same proportionally between 100 and 1000 nits?

you have to check the lumens of the bulbs. Watts is not = to light output.

But if it was comparing lumens, or nits , or cd/m2, f•L etc like 20 lumens vs 200, yes same difference, 10x = 3.3 f/stops

Or 10 same 20watts bulbs vs 1 20 watt bulb.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

but still: the 400 nit peak on my own set is eminently capable of providing a distinctly superior dynamic range to 100 nit SDR

More light output is not = more dynamic range unless the minimum light output stays the same.

A 400nit tv with 0.4nit blacks has the same range as a 100nit tv with 0.1nit blacks. it just displays the same image 4x (2 f/stops) brighter. Like putting a transparency on an illuminator and increasing the brightness of the illuminator, the transparency's contrast (range) doesn't change. To display more range you need increased contrast (range) on the TV (like 1000:1 vs 800:1)

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I wonder though, although HDR10 is mastered at 1000 nits, how many of those highlights actually get close to that? Probably most of the highlight only get up in the middle range anyway 400-600 nits.

Checking quickly on a few shots

hitman ~60% = ~244nits
helmet specular reflection martian ~70% = ~620nits
smurf ~73% = ~820nits
spidey ~74% = ~900nits
lego ~75% = ~980nits
last witch h ~76% - ~79% = ~1080nits ~1420nits

I think I saw a lamp in a movie that was more but don't remember where. So I'll have to watch the movies again

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I wonder though, although HDR10 is mastered at 1000 nits, how many of those highlights actually get close to that? Probably most of the highlight only get up in the middle range anyway 400-600 nits. After all, the new DV TVs only get up to that, and people are going gaga over bit rate starved VUDU HDR content. So it makes me wonder how much of this upper end actually being used?

Is the difference in brightness between a 20 watt light bulb and a 200 watt light bulb the same proportionally between 100 and 1000 nits?

HDR10 is not mastered at 1000 nits. HDR10 supports up to 10,000 nits and the mastering level depends on the content and what the studio used. For example, the Warner UHD titles are all mastered at 4,000 nits (Dolby Pulsar) while others may be 1200 nits or 1000 nits. It is literally on a title by title or studio by studio basis. So without proper metadata implementation and response by the viewing display, you would need different settings for each title based on their mastering level.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

More light output is not = more dynamic range unless the minimum light output stays the same.

A 400nit tv with 0.4nit blacks has the same range as a 100nit tv with 0.1nit blacks. it just displays the same image 4x (2 f/stops) brighter. Like putting a transparency on an illuminator and increasing the brightness of the illuminator, the transparency's contrast (range) doesn't change. To display more range you need increased contrast (range) on the TV (like 1000:1 vs 800:1)

Looking at one of my 100-nit calibrations I can get on/off contrast of 4515:1 and ANSI contrast of 2559:1. Does that meet with your approval?

[edit] Just had another look. On my current 100-nit settings I'm getting 8164:1 on/off and 4248:1 ANSI with black at 0.013 nits and peak white at 106. With my UHD settings I'm getting blacks at 0.043 and peak white of 351 nits, which - as you rightly say Deci - results in much the same ratios of 8221:1 on/off and 4311:1 ANSI contrast. But - and I'm waiting for the inevitable correction - Sony appear to have over-engineered the dynamic range of the TV in the first place (it was marketed as having something called "X-Tended Dynamic Range") so it's still comfortable with reproducing this small semblance of the higher range when fed the converted SDR 2020 output from the Panasonic player.

Sure, one could argue that because my blacks are being lifted (although I watch with a small bias light anyway so I haven't noticed a huge difference in outright black levels) I'm not getting the benefit at the lower end, but then that's the nature of the beast with LCD tech. I've seen plenty of remarks from people who DO have the proper HDR EOTF that when the TV maxes out the backlight their blacks go to shit anyway, so I'm not losing any sleep over that aspect of it. Fact is, I've still seen some HUGE - and some not so huge - differences vs regular Blu-ray on the UHD discs that I've watched so far.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

HDR10 is not mastered at 1000 nits. HDR10 supports up to 10,000 nits and the mastering level depends on the content and what the studio used. For example, the Warner UHD titles are all mastered at 4,000 nits (Dolby Pulsar) while others may be 1200 nits or 1000 nits. It is literally on a title by title or studio by studio basis. So without proper metadata implementation and response by the viewing display, you would need different settings for each title based on their mastering level.

The test patterns on the Sony discs go all the way up to 10,000, do you (or anyone else) know what nits their actual movies are being mastered at?

It's crazy that the BDA's own MaxFALL and MaxCLL authoring guidelines (of 400 and 1000 nits respectively) are being disregarded so quickly, but then that's the nature of the beast, what with Sony and Warners having publicly adopted Dolby's HDR mastering suite: everybody's doing their own thing.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

HDR10 is not mastered at 1000 nits. HDR10 supports up to 10,000 nits and the mastering level depends on the content and what the studio used. For example, the Warner UHD titles are all mastered at 4,000 nits (Dolby Pulsar) while others may be 1200 nits or 1000 nits. It is literally on a title by title or studio by studio basis. So without proper metadata implementation and response by the viewing display, you would need different settings for each title based on their mastering level.

My understanding is that HDR is tied to the mastering monitor, in the case of the Dolby Pulsar 4000nits, and the Sony BVM-X300 OLED 1000nits.

this is an old slide and maybe different now, but as you can see it supports what Kris is saying.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The test patterns on the Sony discs go all the way up to 10,000, do you (or anyone else) know what nits their actual movies are being mastered at?

It's crazy that the BDA's own MaxFALL and MaxCLL authoring guidelines (of 400 and 1000 nits respectively) are being disregarded so quickly, but then that's the nature of the beast, what with Sony and Warners having publicly adopted Dolby's HDR mastering suite: everybody's doing their own thing.

Not sure specifically on Sony's. One of the guys from Spectracal is supposed to give me a matrix that will allow me to look at the coding with my HD Fury for the output which should specify what the mastering monitor level was. I will look at discs from all the studios and see if they are consistent in their output and will report back.

That pattern that you're talking about on the Sony discs is a good tool once those numbers are figured out. You can look at where you are clipping in the range and adjust (if your display allows for it) based on the content you're watching. So if you know that studio X uses 1200 nit mastering monitors, you can adjust your displays settings so that it clips at 1200 nits. Then just remember/write down the setting for each common mastering level so you can easily go back to it. Tedious, but it is what we have at the moment.

[Geoff D]

Yep, it's better than nothing! It's good that people are devising ways to figure out what they were mastered at.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

HDR10 is not mastered at 1000 nits. HDR10 supports up to 10,000 nits and the mastering level depends on the content and what the studio used. For example, the Warner UHD titles are all mastered at 4,000 nits (Dolby Pulsar) while others may be 1200 nits or 1000 nits. It is literally on a title by title or studio by studio basis. So without proper metadata implementation and response by the viewing display, you would need different settings for each title based on their mastering level.

So this statement is wrong?

HDR10 uses the ST 2084 EOTF and is mastered at 1,000 nits using 10-bit video depth and a colour space that can go up to Rec.2020.

https://www.avforums.com/article/ult...ces-2016.12295

[Geoff D]

I wouldn't say it's wrong (those are the basic specs after all, and content providers are supposed to be sticking to the 400 average/1000 highest mastering guidelines for the first two years of the licence) so much as not having all the information to hand re: drilling down into what the discs are actually being mastered at.

[Crimsoncleaver]

Originally Posted by jh1123

The flare is around the 18min mark. They fire two flares in the air which on the Blu Ray and theatrical presentation were red and yellow. But the red flare appears orange in the UHD (at least on the samsung player).

I think the best moment for the sun is right when they're leaving the canyon, after the motorcycle chase.

So tested the flare scene. The left flare is definitely red, found the screenshots you were talking about:

Blu-Ray:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/attachment...hmentid=137010

UHD with HDR:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/attachment...hmentid=137011

On mine however, the right flare is a more orange yellow.
But can see what that user's saying, the left on his has completely changed colour. Not the case for myself, though the right is more orange in tone.

Bear in mind though that I have not calibrated with UHD. I can only do by eye so Geoff's in a better position. Are there any test patterns on the UHD discs though? Ideally need something running in the HDR to SDR mode to get colours correct.

I did notice that changing Warm 1 to Warm 2 made the yellow flare less orange - am cautious of this though as it took me and my girlfriend a month to get used to Warm 2, this was 4 years ago with other Sony sets, realising we were watching a very cold blue image.

The sun scene is now what I am using to test I am not using detail. Fortunately -5 HDR to SDR conversion was perfect.

[Kris Deering]

I've seen people talking about the flare scene in Mad Max. I don't know if I'd point fingers at the player yet. For one, are people calibrating their display to 2020? I realize the movie is a P3 master, but the P3 master is in a 2020 container with completely different saturation points, so you can't calibrate for P3 and call it good. I've seen a lot of displays that have their wider color mode setup for P3 and not 2020 coordinates, this would cause issues with color shift. Also, until you can be absolutely sure that your HDR mode is calibrated PROPERLY (which means almost no one), it is impossible to make objective comments about the presentation.

[Kris Deering]

And the HDR to SDR conversion is completely based on whatever Panasonic felt worked, not on some actual transform that is 100% accurate. If accuracy is paramount for your viewing, stick with Blu-ray for the foreseeable future. UHD Blu-ray is going to have growing pains in this department for awhile.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

And the HDR to SDR conversion is completely based on whatever Panasonic felt worked, not on some actual transform that is 100% accurate. If accuracy is paramount for your viewing, stick with Blu-ray for the foreseeable future. UHD Blu-ray is going to have growing pains in this department for awhile.

But at least the Panasonic has options and is not just a take it or leave it mode

[Geoff D]

Exactly. The idea of accuracy has become an extremely nebulous concept within the world of actual HDR gear, so what does it matter if the adjustable SDR conversion is part of Panasonic's own secret sauce?

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Exactly. The idea of accuracy has become an extremely nebulous concept within the world of actual HDR gear, so what does it matter if the adjustable SDR conversion is part of Panasonic's own secret sauce?

This could be the benchmark, or laughed at within a year
It's too early to tell in the formats life, let alone the life of the player

[Kris Deering]

Not saying there is a reason NOT to use it, and I'm glad Panasonic decided to offer it! Just saying that I wouldn't rely on it being "accurate" if that is something that is very important. Then again, even not doing an HDR to SDR conversion and going HDR all the way doesn't mean things will be any more accurate. Still the wild west overall.

[Crimsoncleaver]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

Checking quickly on a few shots

hitman ~60% = ~244nits
helmet specular reflection martian ~70% = ~620nits
smurf ~73% = ~820nits
spidey ~74% = ~900nits
lego ~75% = ~980nits
last witch h ~76% - ~79% = ~1080nits ~1420nits

I think I saw a lamp in a movie that was more but don't remember where. So I'll have to watch the movies again

How did you measure this, sorry am new to luminance measurements etc. For example, how would you go from a lux measurement to the nits, if possible?