Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by flyry

Stop this nonsense. 5 years from now 8k streaming will be a thing.

Not all of us live in Europe or in rural middle America.

Whatever those people in the avarate bit rate charts are streaming, it ain’t full HD sir.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Streaming services are far far more interested in HDR than 4K, it’s cheaper, it’s bit rate friendly (20% increase in bandwidth compared to standard 1080p) and it’s far easier to implement. Don’t be surprised if this time next year we have a few new sets with just full HD HDR, maybe at the smaller end first (42-49 inch)

Might as well leave 4K HDR+10 to the big boys? (Disc)

OK 4k expert, with all your 4 discs and limited streaming experience...

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by flyry

OK 4k expert, with all your 4 discs and limited streaming experience...

What does quantity have to do with it? True, I have only seen a small sample but that’s all I NEED to see. I own a nature doc and it’s simply stunning. It’s a world apart from Netflix, Amazon etc. When are you guys going to learn, disc just handles background detail waaaaay better? That’s a fact. 4K HDRdisc is dreamy, streaming is just dreary.

Plus, what I said is only common sense. It’s far more appealing dealing with HDR than 4K.

[Wendell R. Breland]

If folks want to do some streaming checks:

Google

Amazon - They have removed their recommended internet speeds, was at this link just a few days ago. It was similar to VUDU’s.

VUDU

And another Netflix

[Vor4]

Originally Posted by PCFan

As more and more people buy 4k televisions, more people will want to take advantage of their 4k televisions. This is a good reason for 4k streaming to stay. I doubt anyone buys a 4k television that does not want to feed it 4k content. 4k televisions in the household are becoming more common. Everytime I see a customer walk out with a television bought from Best Buy and Fry's, it's a 4k set since a year ago.

Most of the television studios don't even transmit 4k signals yet and cable tv companies are not providing customers with 4k content via cable tv. What I think will be next big thing for television studios and cable tv providers is to transmit 1080p HDR/Dolby Vision signals. How can you state that people want to take advantage of 4k TV sets, when television studios and cable tv are not offering 4k yet.

Of course you see people buying last years 4k TV sets from stores. The stores are unloading them from inventory for a good price to make room for the latest 4k TVs. I still see people buying 720p and 1080p TV sets.

Most people that have 4k TVs don't mind watching 1080p material. Decent 4k tv sets from LG, Samsung, and Sony have very good 4k upscaling engines.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Most of the television studios don't even transmit 4k signals yet and cable tv companies are not providing customers with 4k content via cable tv. What I think will be next big thing for television studios and cable tv providers is to transmit 1080p HDR/Dolby Vision signals. How can you state that people want to take advantage of 4k TV sets, when television studios and cable tv are not offering 4k yet.

Of course you see people buying last years 4k TV sets from stores. The stores are unloading them from inventory for a good price to make room for the latest 4k TVs. I still see people buying 720p and 1080p TV sets.

Most people that have 4k TVs don't mind watching 1080p material. Decent 4k tv sets from LG, Samsung, and Sony have very good 4k upscaling engines.

I have been talking about 1080p HDR for the last few pages. It’s coming, there is zero doubt in my mind. Also, streaming services will much prefer it.

It is my strong opinion, that the industry have overpromised on 4K. I think HDR is the perfect tech at the perfect time for them. They can still push PQ improvements but at a much less demanding bit rate for the consumer (well, for them really, but that’s what they will say imo). 1080p HDR is obtainable for people with 10 Mbps broadband connections. With advances in codecs, that could be single figures in time.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Most of the television studios don't even transmit 4k signals yet and cable tv companies are not providing customers with 4k content via cable tv. What I think will be next big thing for television studios and cable tv providers is to transmit 1080p HDR/Dolby Vision signals. How can you state that people want to take advantage of 4k TV sets, when television studios and cable tv are not offering 4k yet.

Cable TV service is in its third year of modest decline. Cable TV subscriptions fell 3.4% in 2017 which is greater than the declines in 2016 and 2015.

http://fortune.com/2018/04/29/viewers-cable-streaming/

Contrast that with subscription streaming which has seen sustained growth year after year. Streaming subscriptions were up about 31% in 2017 and it is showing 29% growth after the first quarter of this year. The major streaming services offer 4K content.

https://degonline.org/wp-content/upl...ent_Report.pdf

4K content is currently experienced either from watching a 4K disc or by some form of streaming or download. Whether or not cable TV service begins to offer 4K content remains to be seen, but we are in no way constrained by whatever decision they make. 4K content is easy to access even without cable TV's participation.

4K discs and 4K streaming are here to stay. You can enjoy watching them on your 4K TV right now. I enjoy 4K content and I ditched cable TV service over 4 years ago; Cable TV is not the deciding factor.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Cable TV service is in its third year of modest decline. Cable TV subscriptions fell 3.4% in 2017 which is greater than the declines in 2016 and 2015.

http://fortune.com/2018/04/29/viewers-cable-streaming/

Contrast that with subscription streaming which has seen sustained growth year after year. Streaming subscriptions were up about 31% in 2017 and it is showing 29% growth after the first quarter of this year.

https://degonline.org/wp-content/upl...ent_Report.pdf

4K content is currently experienced either from watching a 4K disc or by some form of streaming or download. Whether or not cable TV service begins to offer 4K content remains to be seen, but we are in no way constrained by whatever decision they make. 4K content is easy to access even without cable TV's participation.

1080p HDR is streaming’s future Vilya. If you want 4K, it will be disc.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

1080p HDR is streaming’s future Vilya. If you want 4K, it will be disc.

Is this before or after everything is 10 minutes long shown only on watches?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Groot

Is this before or after everything is 10 minutes long shown only on watches?

Just before.

Seriously, HDR 1080p, get used to it. That will be the very best, with 720p HDR also a consideration.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

If folks want to do some streaming checks:

Thanks for the information, but those are just minimums and not real time. Like I said, at 15Mbps I was Buffering trying to Stream HDX. Even if you don't get Buffering at low Bandwidths, you will get Degradation which all you guys complain about when it comes to Streaming. I say for good HD Streaming you need at least 50+Mbps at a Consistent Speed that only Hard Wired can achieve.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Thanks for the information, but those are just minimums and not real time. Like I said, at 15Mbps I was Buffering trying to Stream HDX. Even if you don't get Buffering at low Bandwidths, you will get Degradation which all you guys complain about when it comes to Streaming. I say for good HD Streaming you need at least 50+Mbps at a Consistent Speed that only Hard Wired can achieve.

That’s exactly why 1080p HDR will become as popular as sliced bread. Thanks for cementing my theory.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I say for good HD Streaming you need at least 50+Mbps at a Consistent Speed that only Hard Wired can achieve.

And you are reliably wrong as usual. You do not need a wired connection to stream any content. Wireless routers G rated and later all offer enough speed with plenty of room to spare for streaming 4K content. Every single computer and network professional that I know, computer engineers, software engineers, system programmers, and even a CIO, all use wireless home networks to stream content in their own homes. Any one of these people know more about this than you ever will. Most of us use wireless home networks and have no issues doing so. If any of us did have issues, we would switch to a hard wired connection. We haven't switched because a wireless network offers reliable and excellent performance.

Further, the streaming service providers themselves say that 25-30 Mbps speeds are enough for streaming 4K content. I suspect that Netflix and others know more about what is required here than you do- call it a lucky guess.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

1080p HDR is streaming’s future Vilya. If you want 4K, it will be disc.

I never said that 4K streaming would be the dominant type of streaming. I really doubt that being the case as so many people lack the capability to stream at that level. I said 4K streaming is here to stay and I firmly believe that.

As I always prefer the disc, I will not cry a single tear if I am wrong here, but this website is full of clairvoyants who couldn't predict snowfall during a blizzard.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I never said that 4K streaming would be the dominant type of streaming. I really doubt that being the case as so many people lack the capability to stream at that level. I said 4K streaming is here to stay and I firmly believe that.

As I always prefer the disc, I will not cry a single tear if I am wrong here, but this website is full of clairvoyants who couldn't predict snowfall during a blizzard.

But you have just made a prediction yourself, stating you believe 4K is here to stay?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

But you have just made a prediction yourself, stating you believe 4K is here to stay?

Yes, but notice I did not offer any guarantees.

The availability and consumption of 4K content, both by disc and digital means, is seeing extremely strong growth. I see no evidence of that suddenly reversing itself into a decline and by no stretch of the imagination into a death spiral.

While there remains such a strong appetite for 4K content, it would be foolish of any provider not to offer it. Where there is demand, there is an opportunity to make a profit. Profit is very motivational.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I say for good HD Streaming you need at least 50+Mbps at a Consistent Speed that only Hard Wired can achieve.

Originally Posted by Vilya

And you are reliably wrong as usual. You do not need a wired connection to stream any content. Wireless routers G rated and later all offer enough speed with plenty of room to spare for streaming 4K content. Every single computer and network professional that I know, computer engineers, software engineers, system programmers, and even a CIO, all use wireless home networks to stream content in their own homes. Any one of these people know more about this than you ever will. Most of us use wireless home networks and have no issues doing so. If any of us did have issues, we would switch to a hard wired connection. We haven't switched because a wireless network offers reliable and excellent performance.

Further, the streaming service providers themselves say that 25-30 Mbps speeds are enough for streaming 4K content. I suspect that Netflix and others know more about what is required here than you do- call it a lucky guess.

I'm just going on what you guys say, that Streaming is Low Quality and not as good as Discs. Could it be that you are not getting all the Bandwidth. Why do you think that Disc is better, because it's Hard Wired with an HDMI Cable. So if you Hard Wire Streaming, you should get the same results with the same Bitrates. All the Providers just give you the minimums, and everyone knows that Real Time is way different. The Average Person thinks that DVD Quality is good enough, so Streaming HD over Wireless works for them, and I guess it works for you guys too. I just know my Streaming has no Degradation, and I'm sure it's because I am Hard Wired!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I'm just going on what you guys say, that Streaming is Low Quality and not as good as Discs. Could it be that you are not getting all the Bandwidth. Why do you think that Disc is better, because it's Hard Wired with an HDMI Cable. So if you Hard Wire Streaming, you should get the same results with the same Bitrates. All the Providers just give you the minimums, and everyone knows that Real Time is way different. The Average Person thinks that DVD Quality is good enough, so Streaming HD over Wireless works for them, and I guess it works for you guys too. I just know my Streaming has no Degradation, and I'm sure it's because I am Hard Wired!

Whether you are streaming over a wired network or a wireless one, you are still receiving all that the streaming service provides. I stream content to my home theater wirelessly; I stream content to my pc over a wired connection. The quality of the streamed content is identical.

N rated routers provide theoretical speeds up to 600 Mbps and conservative real world testing shows that N rated routers deliver a minimum of 100 Mbps. Seeing as the most robust of the major streaming services only offers about 25 Mbps, a N rated router easily exceeds the needs of anyone streaming 4K content. Netflix streams 4K content at just 16 Mbps. A newer AC rated router has theoretical speeds of 1.3 Gbps and real world results of at least 200 Mbps.

Again, those of us with wireless networks would switch to a wired connection if we noticed undue anomalies like picture degradation. Having a wireless network does not mean we are blind.

Disc is better because it uses less compression, both video and audio, and it has a much higher bitrate than its streaming counterpart. The player decodes the data on the disc and sends that decoded information over the HDMI cable. The decoded data from a 4K disc player playing a 4K disc can use nearly all of the 4K premium certified HDMI cable's bandwidth of 18 Gbps. The HDMI cable is simply the decoded data pipeline between the disc player and the display device. 18 Gbps is not possible to send over a wireless home network, thus the need for a 4K premium certified HDMi cable.

"Take a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc, for instance: 4K image resolution on its own is a big bandwidth hog, but then add 10-bit color, 4:4:4 color sampling, 60 FPS content, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X multi-channel surround sound, HDR metadata, and all the other little bits that need to get from a 4K Blu-ray player to a TV, and you get close to maxing out that 18Gbps limit."

From: https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-t...ow-news-specs/

HDMI 2.1 will require new HDMI cables that can support bandwidths of 48 Gbps.

Data from your streaming service is much more compressed than what is on the comparable disc and it is not decoded until it reaches the device with the necessary software to decode that data, typically a Smart TV, an app enabled disc player, Roku, etc. The ethernet cable in your wired network is only carrying the compressed data received from the internet; it is not decoded until it reaches the app enabled device with the necessary decoding software. Same with a wireless network: the compressed data received from the internet is transmitted wirelessly to the app enabled device that decodes the data. Neither the ethernet cable in a wired network nor a wireless network is carrying the decoded information. That happens when it reaches the software enabled device- the one with the apps on it.

An HDMI cable is not analogous to an ethernet cable in a wired network. The HDMI cable is carrying decoded data from the disc player to the display device; the ethernet cable in a wired home network is carrying compressed data raw from the internet- no decoding has yet been performed.

It is late; I'm tired; I hope the above was coherent.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Most of the television studios don't even transmit 4k signals yet and cable tv companies are not providing customers with 4k content via cable tv. What I think will be next big thing for television studios and cable tv providers is to transmit 1080p HDR/Dolby Vision signals. How can you state that people want to take advantage of 4k TV sets, when television studios and cable tv are not offering 4k yet.

Of course you see people buying last years 4k TV sets from stores. The stores are unloading them from inventory for a good price to make room for the latest 4k TVs. I still see people buying 720p and 1080p TV sets.

Most people that have 4k TVs don't mind watching 1080p material. Decent 4k tv sets from LG, Samsung, and Sony have very good 4k upscaling engines.

You too huh?

When people say "streaming" absolutely no one is talking about cable. (in before wendell starts talking semantics)

Now I don't know where you live, but I really doubt your local store is selling 720 sets still. I won't go as far as calling your store () but unless you live in podunk town it seems unlikely.

And yes it is frustrating that cable companies aren't transmitting even in true 1080p yet, but it's not as baffling as DVDs still being sold when SD TVs went extinct a while back. $$$ be damned I really think they should have forced people to upgrade a long time ago.

I'm going to cut the cord soon as I don't even watch TV on my box because I use all the cable apps on my roku because it looks way better. I tried to but they said I just renewed in March and it's a fee to cancel.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Just before.

Seriously, HDR 1080p, get used to it. That will be the very best, with [B7]20p HDR[/B] also a consideration.

Yes because the tech world has ever gone backwards instead of forwards.

720 HDR. WTF. lol