Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

technically the DMCA only applies to anything that is encrypted so the only things in your list would be DVD and BD.

I better not go there but there is a world of difference between legal, illegal and not getting caught

I think your memory is failing you; many VHS tapes were copy protected as well.

I know there is a "world of difference" between what is "legal, illegal, and getting caught", but there is not a single example that I am aware of where the DMCA has been used to prosecute, or to sue in civil court, a single person ever. Zero prosecutions and zero civil suits is quite telling in itself; the DMCA has never been used to stop consumers from making personal back-ups.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

yeah saw it in your previous post, I don't wait to get to the last post before replying, and yes laws can be different in every country (plus anyone can wright anything anywhere)

Well, the "no lending" prohibition did appear on my brand new, just released this week, blu-ray of The Captain and I did not write that warning myself.

I plan to lend my disc to my sister because I like living on the edge.

[Vilya]

My box full of Star Wars movies on 4K disc just arrived; I now own all 11.

Time to plan another franchise viewing marathon!

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The only thing "very clear" about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act is that it has never been applied to consumers making back-ups for their personal use. People have made back-ups of their purchased content for many decades. I have made back-ups of cassette tapes, vinyl, CDs, video tapes, laserdiscs, DVDs, and blu-rays. I guess I must be an unrepentant career criminal and law enforcement the Keystone cops.

Its mostly applied to a party that rips and distributes the content back online or is caught selling media that is copies of the original.

Still with more recent media such as DVDs and BD's if you're found to be loaning those backups that could be looked at it all in the same light. In other words its really for your immediate family use, not friends and relatives. The basis of selling digital codes from media you bought to others is actually illegal in the scheme of things. Whats the studios are doing is providing a way to not have to backup and be able to access the same content you physically own on a variety of internet connected devices. In some examples you can even download a limited number of content. Sometimes the content owner allows you to provide third parties that content which is what movies anywhere is doing for specific registered media.

But just because people have never been subject to a law because they fall below the threshold of whats considered a serious violation doesn't distract that its still that.


PS I see content removed all the time online because its in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, care to argue about that?

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My box full of Star Wars movies on 4K disc just arrived; I now own all 11.

Time to plan another franchise viewing marathon!

Better late then never with DMC. Enjoy!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Its mostly applied to a party that rips and distributes the content back online or is caught selling media that is copies of the original. Still with more recent media such as DVDs and BD's if you're found to be loaning those backups that could be looked at it all in the same light. In other words its really for your immediate family use, not friends and relatives. The basis of selling digital codes from media you bought to others is actually illegal in the scheme of things. Whats the studios are doing is providing a way to not have to backup and be able to access the same content you physically own on a variety of internet connected devices. In some examples you can even download a limited number of content. Sometimes the content owner allows you to provide third parties that content which is what movies anywhere is doing for specific registered media.

But just because people have never been subject to a law because they fall below the threshold of whats considered a serious violation doesn't distract that its still that.

Most of the discs that I have backed up came with no digital code.

I do not sell digital codes, but I invite you to go into the digital forums and remind all of those that do sell them that they are criminals; you'll be very welcomed there and I am sure that they will all see the error of their ways. When you're done there don't forget to contact this website's management and point out to them that they are providing a place that facilitates the illegal selling of digital codes; I am certain that they will be appreciative.

If making personal back-ups is illegal then it is less enforced than jay walking in that it has never happened. I am not going to stop a practice that I have been doing for over 30 years based upon the legal opinions of amateur hour attorneys on blu-ray.com. If neither the government or the studios can be bothered to enforce this supposed law even once, then I can't be bothered with heeding it, either.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Most of the discs that I have backed up came with no digital code.

If you use the 911 information sharing perspective a localized backup is not acceptable, it has to be stored in a another physical location so in case of a disaster your content is still safe. A local on-site backup is not meeting that goal.

See that vacation home could have its uses!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Better late then never with DMC. Enjoy!

I cancelled with DMC; these all came from Target. It took five days of badgering DMC just to allow me to log back into my account.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I cancelled with DMC; these all came from Target. It took five days of badgering DMC just to allow me to log back into my account.

I know that, I meant you didn't have to rely on DMC mess up. .

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

I know that, I meant you didn't have to rely on DMC mess up. .

Now I just have to endure the prequels again with the ever delightful Jar Jar Binks and Hayden Christensen's abysmal attempts at acting.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

The basis of selling digital codes from media you bought to others is actually illegal in the scheme of things.

Did you follow the Disney vs Redbox lawsuit?

I read the judge's order and posted a link to it in this thread. The ruling was for Disney and Redbox was ordered to stop selling digital codes. But (and a big one) the judge ordered Disney to offer a refund for the digital code to the disc purchasers and make it obvious and easy to do so. They were given so many days (?) to comply or the order against Redbox would be null and void.

I only got one title that offered a refund, tried to get said refund but only got the typical BS runaround. That was the one and only title that I saw that offered a refund.

Disney has since settled with Redbox therefore we have no idea what the settlement was and probably never will.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My box full of Star Wars movies on 4K disc just arrived; I now own all 11.

Got my 6 yesterday. Apparently some have received defective UHD SW disc.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Got my 6 yesterday. Apparently some have received defective UHD SW disc.

The individual releases contain stacked discs, so some people received scratched discs. I visually inspected all of mine and they look to be free of obvious defects. I also repositioned the 4K disc so that it was on a hub all to itself; why they stack they most vulnerable disc in the set makes no damn sense.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Did you follow the Disney vs Redbox lawsuit?

I read the judge's order and posted a link to it in this thread. The ruling was for Disney and Redbox was ordered to stop selling digital codes. But (and a big one) the judge ordered Disney to offer a refund for the digital code to the disc purchasers and make it obvious and easy to do so. They were given so many days (?) to comply or the order against Redbox would be null and void.

I only got one title that offered a refund, tried to get said refund but only got the typical BS runaround. That was the one and only title that I saw that offered a refund.

Disney has since settled with Redbox therefore we have no idea what the settlement was and probably never will.

Thanks for pointing that out. Source

Pregerson disagrees.

"Downloaders no longer need affirm that they possess the physical discs, to which first sale rights would apply," he writes.

Redbox attempted to sway the judge that there was still ongoing misuse because the "digital code is rendered worthless" unless a Combo Pack owner foregoes the first sale rights associated with the physical discs.

"That statement is not accurate," retorts the judge. "Under the old terms, a Combo Pack owner who disposed of the discs was indeed left with a worthless code because continued possession of the discs was a condition of digital access. Now, however, digital access is conditioned not on possession of the discs, but on the manner of Code acquisition. A Combo Pack owner who disposes of the discs is left with the same digital access rights he or she always possessed. Although Redbox is correct that, because Codes are not separately transferable, a Combo Pack owner cannot transfer a Code if he or she disposes of the discs first, the right to transfer a separate Code is not protected by the first sale doctrine or any unconditional ownership rights. ... A copyright misuse defense, therefore, is unlikely to succeed."

There has been this system of some parties getting content for little expense for awhile , if one buys a BD or UHD BD these days, you get a digital code usually. Some sell either to recoup most of the cost, allowing them buy more BD + Digital Copy and keep doing the same repetitively. For as long as I seen this licensing it always the case that the disc if the proof of ownership for digital code. Yes Redbook was bad trying to do the same as thinking they could be construed as separate products where they are really physical media and a digital copy of said media, not two products.

Now one can most surely sell used physical media and if possible the digital code is valid if not used, but separate the two, uhhh thats not legal, Sorry guys that the license. As always the small fry swim away, but big fish is now caught.

This does not impact studios that give away additional digital codes for purchasing other product. (universal)

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

As always the small fry swim away, but big fish is now caught.

I guess that blu-ray.com is not a "big fish" then as they seemingly turn a blind eye to the operation of a marketplace for the selling of digital codes contained in disc combo packs. If memory serves ebay tries to prevent the selling of digital codes, but it's the wild West here on ol' anything goes blu-ray.com.

It seems like a very silly licensing term to require that one posses the disc to use the digital code as there is no way at all that they can verify disc ownership. A disc could become defective and its owner might throw the disc away while still using their digital copy or their house could burn down to the ground and destroy every single disc that they own does that then nullify the rights to their digital library? Goofy term in my opinion.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Well, the "no lending" prohibition did appear on my brand new, just released this week, blu-ray of The Captain and I did not write that warning myself.

I plan to lend my disc to my sister because I like living on the edge.

I did not mean the individual but the studio

but out of curiosity I did some checking

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...eading/general

did not read through everything but

28B
Personal copies for private use
(1)
The making of a copy of a work, other than a computer program, by an individual does not infringe copyright in the work provided that the copy—
(a)
is a copy of—
(i)
the individual’s own copy of the work
(2)
In this section “the individual’s own copy” is a copy which—
(a)
has been lawfully acquired by the individual on a permanent basis,
(3)
In this section a “personal copy” means a copy made under this section.
(4)
For the purposes of subsection (2)(a), a copy “lawfully acquired on a permanent basis”—
(b)
does not include a copy which has been borrowed, rented, broadcast or streamed, or a copy which has been obtained by means of a download enabling no more than temporary access to the copy.
(5)
In subsection (1)(b) “private use” includes private use facilitated by the making of a copy—
(a)
as a back up copy,
(6)
Copyright in a work is infringed if an individual transfers a personal copy of the work to another person (otherwise than on a private and temporary basis), except where the transfer is authorised by the copyright owner.
(7)
If copyright is infringed as set out in subsection (6), a personal copy which has been transferred is for all purposes subsequently treated as an infringing copy.
(8)
Copyright in a work is also infringed if an individual, having made a personal copy of the work, transfers the individual’s own copy of the work to another person (otherwise than on a private and temporary basis) and, after that transfer and without the licence of the copyright owner, retains any personal copy.

so my understanding (in the UK)

1) people are legally allowed to make a backup (red) of the copy they own
2) people can lend the original or the backup if as long as it is private use and temporary
3) you can't make a copy and then give or sell one of them.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I guess that blu-ray.com is not a "big fish" then as they seemingly turn a blind eye to the operation of a marketplace for the selling of digital codes contained in disc combo packs. If memory serves ebay tries to prevent the selling of digital codes, but it's the wild West here on ol' anything goes blu-ray.com.

It seems like a very silly licensing term to require that one posses the disc to use the digital code as there is no way at all that they can verify disc ownership. A disc could become defective and its owner might throw the disc away while still using their digital copy or their house could burn down to the ground and destroy every single disc that they own does that then nullifying the rights to their digital library? Goofy term in my opinion.

I think you miss the point.

It is a matter of perspective. For example if you buy a box with a BD, DVD and DC did you buy 3 copies of the film or one that the studio allows you to access it in three ways.

If it is the former then it is legal to sell any copies the owner does not want (for example the DVD and DC). If it is the latter and the guy is selling (or giving away) the two formats he does not want then that person is making 2 illegal copies.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think you miss the point.

It is a matter of perspective. For example if you buy a box with a BD, DVD and DC did you buy 3 copies of the film or one that the studio allows you to access it in three ways.

If it is the former then it is legal to sell any copies the owner does not want (for example the DVD and DC). If it is the latter and the guy is selling (or giving away) the two formats he does not want then that person is making 2 illegal copies.

It is all just so worrisome that I am looking to keep an attorney on retainer.

Most people here are just selling or trading their digital codes; the code buyer never winds up with any of the discs contained in the combo pack and thus they do not meet the licensing requirement that JohnAV referenced.

People also sometimes sell whatever disc they do not want from their combo pack, for example the DVD, and I am pretty sure that is perfectly legal to do.

Regardless of how a person breaks up their combo pack, they are not "making illegal copies"; they are at the worst breaking a licensing agreement and/or they are engaging in "unauthorized distribution." They did not "make" any thing; they just parceled out portions of their combo pack. None of which is enforceable, anyway, because what I do with the contents of my combo packs are untraceable. Is anyone ever going to inspect my disc inventory to see if they align with my redeemed digital codes? Is there a requirement that says if I no longer have the disc that I must somehow delete my digital copy? I very much doubt it.

[smithb]

This is going around in circles.

The law itself is meant to be black and white. The enforcement of that law by the one being victimized is the gray area because they have a choice to ignore or try and have it enforced.

Obviously, the persons at home illegally making copies or the one's selling the digital codes here are not worth going after. However, they have gone after some of the companies making the software to allow the cracking of the copy protection. And some have forced content to be removed from YouTube, as well as other venues.

The fact that the studio's won't take action against the "small fish" does not make it legal. But, the laws are there so they can go after the "bigger fish" as they see fit.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by smithb

This is going around in circles.

The law itself is meant to be black and white. The enforcement of that law by the one being victimized is the gray area because they have a choice to ignore or try and have it enforced.

Obviously, the persons at home illegally making copies or the one's selling the digital codes here are not worth going after. However, they have gone after some of the companies making the software to allow the cracking of the copy protection. And some have forced content to be removed from YouTube, as well as other venues.

The fact that the studio's won't take action against the "small fish" does not make it legal. But, the laws are there so they can go after the "bigger fish" as they see fit.

There are more lawyers on this forum than anywhere else, I declare.

I have been using the same brand of disc back-up software since 2013; I just renewed it all to the 2020 versions two months ago. No one has gone after them in the seven years of my using their products.

No, selective enforcement of a law is discriminatory. A law applies to everyone equally or it is an unjust law. Whom the studios might choose to sue in civil court is entirely different than the government fairly and equally enforcing the law.

If I were to steal something worth $20 or worth $1000, I would face arrest and rightly so. The penalties would vary, but I would get arrested in both instances, small theft or larger theft. The victim could drop the charges later, however unlikely, but the government would still have done its enforcement up to that point.

Anyway, I am bored of this particualr topic; others are welcome to enjoy it, though, by all means. I will continue doing as I have done for over 30 years: I will make personal back-ups of any legally acquired disc that I damn well please with the same software that I have legally purchased and used for years. I will lend my discs to anyone that I want should I so choose. I do not sell digital codes, but I may if I ever get super hard up for money; who knows? I might need the cash for a defense attorney.