The Last of Us Part 2 - PS5

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by Gremal

A few problems with this analysis. Games are not art, exactly. They're products sold to customers. In the old days there was an expression: the customer is always right. In this case, the game is marketed as a sequel to one of the most beloved games ever, featuring one of the most universally appreciated characters in Joel. Millions of people had played as Joel for billions of hours of gaming, and could relate to him in a way that had rarely been achieved in even the greatest games.

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

Originally Posted by Gremal

You replace this beloved character with one who is difficult to relate to and you're just begging for criticism because you've disappointed many customers. Once upon a time, this was a very bad marketing strategy and a dumb idea.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

I haven't seen any accurate data on that. Interpreting social media posts amounts to naval gazing.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

It's all relative. To really make an honest assessment, you'd have to make the kind of game I'd like and compare it to sales of TLOU2 that you like. TLOU2 was bound to be a blockbuster as a sequel to TLOU, and was bound to earn lots of accolades with all the resources Sony and ND threw into it, e.g., bundling it with PS4.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

So the term "a famous work of art" is an oxymoron? Shakespeare's plays, The Mona Lisa, The Sistine Chapel, The Last Supper, and Beethoven's music aren't art either? All of them were sold to customers.

You're focusing on the most famous works of art to the exclusion of all else, including the broader point and the topic of the thread. Most artists are not famous but toil in anonymity (including famous artists like Van Gough, who achieved fame only posthumously). Most artists, including Van Gough, found it impossible to make a decent living selling art and were only able to indulge in it because they came from a prosperous family.

What is art? What do you call the thing (painting, drawing, film, game, song, sculpture, etc.) the artist creates?

Art is defined as "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination." You don't need to ask this, and you don't need me to tell you this. Just stick to the conversation.

[Pi905]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

I agree with everything you're saying here. The minority of people who hate on this game are very vocal about it, which is why they may seem to be a larger group than they are. 8 months later, and people (some of which who still haven't played it) are still making it their life's mission to let everyone know that they don't like it. If everyone who even somewhat enjoyed the game would do the same, the sound of the haters would be overtaken.

I also agree that it was the right move for Naughty Dog to tell the story they wanted to tell. Neil stated for years leading up to the release that not everyone would like it, so it's not like people weren't warned that it may not resonate with them. I think with this becoming the most awarded game of all time, that's proof enough for ND that their decision was worth it.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Pi905

I agree with everything you're saying here. The minority of people who hate on this game are very vocal about it, which is why they may seem to be a larger group than they are. 8 months later, and people (some of which who still haven't played it) are still making it their life's mission to let everyone know that they don't like it. If everyone who even somewhat enjoyed the game would do the same, the sound of the haters would be overtaken.

I also agree that it was the right move for Naughty Dog to tell the story they wanted to tell. Neil stated for years leading up to the release that not everyone would like it, so it's not like people weren't warned that it may not resonate with them. I think with this becoming the most awarded game of all time, that's proof enough for ND that their decision was worth it.

None of that is based on actual data in terms of a percentage of people who enjoy TLoU2 relative to TLoU. It's pure projection based on your personal opinion with no numbers backing it up. Awards amount to meaningless glad-handing.

TLoU had 44,500,000 players as of November 19, 2020 while TLoU2 had less than one-sixth that at 7,200,000. TLOU has about 40,000 more new players each month than the sequel, according to the most recent numbers from Gamestat. None of that suggests to me that people love the story of TLOU2 or love having Joel replaced with Abby in the gameplay.

[Pi905]

Originally Posted by Gremal

None of that is based on actual data in terms of a percentage of people who enjoy TLoU2 relative to TLoU. It's pure projection based on your personal opinion with no numbers backing it up. Awards amount to meaningless glad-handing.

TLoU had 44,500,000 players as of November 19, 2020 while TLoU2 had less than one-sixth that at 7,200,000. TLOU has about 40,000 more new players each month than the sequel, according to the most recent numbers from Gamestat. None of that suggests to me that people love the story of TLOU2 or love having Joel replaced with Abby in the gameplay.

You're definitely in denial about people liking this game and only want to accept facts that will help feed your negative opinion. The Last of Us: Part II has the most Game of the Year awards (some of which were player voted), ever, and to say that amounts to nothing is both ridiculous and undermines literally every award in every facet. Might as well toss Olympic Golds and Purple Hearts since they don't matter either. Stark was right, talking to you is a waste of time.

[DragonOfTheBlackPool]

Originally Posted by Pi905

You're definitely in denial about people liking this game and only want to accept facts that will help feed your negative opinion. The Last of Us: Part II has the most Game of the Year awards (some of which were player voted), ever, and to say that amounts to nothing is both ridiculous and undermines literally every award in every facet. Might as well toss Olympic Golds and Purple Hearts since they don't matter either. Stark was right, talking to you is a waste of time.

What's ridiculous is you comparing a game award to an Olympic Gold medal, and even worse, a Purple Heart.

[Member-115369]

Originally Posted by Pi905

You're definitely in denial about people liking this game and only want to accept facts that will help feed your negative opinion. The Last of Us: Part II has the most Game of the Year awards (some of which were player voted), ever, and to say that amounts to nothing is both ridiculous and undermines literally every award in every facet. Might as well toss Olympic Golds and Purple Hearts since they don't matter either. Stark was right, talking to you is a waste of time.

Yeah it's just a divisive game, but it's not something only critics loved. It won a ton of players/reader's choice awards too.

It's just something some people loved and other's hated, much like the Star Wars sequel trilogy. Some people hated what they did to beloved characters, others loved them. Some loved the female leads, added diversity and then you have other groups that hate all stuff and think it's "pandering to SJWs" or whatever.

I've learned to largely just stay out of online discussion about stuff like that as the back and forth gets exhausting in general, and especially on these kind of hot topic games or movies or whatever. End of the day I like what I like and no one's opinion, much less randos online, is going to sway that nor do I feel any need to try to get people to like things I don't or vice versa. I like plenty of things that are well received by fans and critics, but also dislike plenty of that stuff and like things that score lower. End of the day everyone has their own preferences and hobbies are meant to be fun and that's maximized by just enjoying what you like, skipping/dropping what you don't and avoiding pointless online ranting over subjective opinions.

[tcripe]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah it's just a divisive game, but it's not something only critics loved. It won a ton of players/reader's choice awards too.

You have obviously never been on The Last of Us 2 reddit page lol

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah it's just a divisive game, but it's not something only critics loved. It won a ton of players/reader's choice awards too.

It's just something some people loved and other's hated, much like the Star Wars sequel trilogy. Some people hated what they did to beloved characters, others loved them. Some loved the female leads, added diversity and then you have other groups that hate all stuff and think it's "pandering to SJWs" or whatever.

I've learned to largely just stay out of online discussion about stuff like that as the back and forth gets exhausting in general, and especially on these kind of hot topic games or movies or whatever. End of the day I like what I like and no one's opinion, much less randos online, is going to sway that nor do I feel any need to try to get people to like things I don't or vice versa. I like plenty of things that are well received by fans and critics, but also dislike plenty of that stuff and like things that score lower. End of the day everyone has their own preferences and hobbies are meant to be fun and that's maximized by just enjoying what you like, skipping/dropping what you don't and avoiding pointless online ranting over subjective opinions.

Believe it or not, there is a wealth of productive discussion to be had in the immense area between love and hate. If polarizing emotions are all you can discuss, no wonder you "just stay out of online discussion" -- but you say this and keep NOT staying out of it. Frankly, drunks are the only ones who talk about love and hate as much as you. That is not going to lead to productive discussion. There are things for everyone to enjoy about TLOU2 for sure--the improved graphics, different types of infected, enemy AI and other elements of gameplay being the obvious ones. But denying the letdown felt by many fans of the first game of having Joel die early and excizing any male character to control certainly invites criticism and should not be verboten. And to repeat, the decisions to focus on female characters are a clear MARKETING effort made by Sony and ND that go beyond just this one game to increase sales by tapping female customers.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Your expectations are not the same as everyone else's.

That's tautological, and not addressing anything I've said.

I always assumed that Joel wouldn't be the main character of the sequel. The first game was clearly a story about Ellie told from Joel's point of view. The sequel being from Ellie's point of view was a logical progression.

Ellie's point of view was well represented in the first game and the player even gets to control her in act 2 of the game.

Adding another playable character wasn't particularly unexpected either. It fits the atmosphere of the world they built, and it also fits the title of the series: The Last of Us. I never had the expectation that the entire series would revolve around Joel and Ellie.

Then why even name it The Last of Us? That's synonymous with Joel and Ellie. Even in killing off Joel, ND knew this would be a problem and had to build in many flashback sequences involving Joel.

[Gremal]

I agree with your post above to some extent, good points.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The gender of the playable characters should never affect anyone's enjoyment of a game one way or another.

Why not? And what if gender does honestly effect players' enjoyment of the game? Not allowed to say so without being labelled something insulting? Purely in terms of variability and appealing to most of the players, one would find your statement unrealistic on the face of it because enjoyment in story mode depends on being able to relate to the character you're controlling. The popularity of the first game was built on people forming an emotional bond with the characters.

[Member-115369]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The gender of the playable characters should never affect anyone's enjoyment of a game one way or another.

Agreed. Unfortunately a lot of incels, hypermasculinity etc. in the gamer community that leads to lots of, IMO, stupid complaining when playable characters are women, whining about forced diversity when games feature women and non-whites etc. Have seen some pretty disgusting comments about the diverse cast in Destruction All Stars on a few places recently. Makes people easy targets to through on ignore lists at least and easy to leave communities with too many of those types.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

None of that data accounts for anyone playing offline and The Last of Us Part 2 doesn't have any multiplayer modes. The numbers could be substantially higher.

Maybe. But for all you know, far more people play TLOU offline than TLOU2.

In any case none of us have solid evidence one way or another. You have absolutely no proof that the majority of players disliked the story and we have absolutely no proof that the majority of players liked the story. It's all speculation on both sides based largely on our own personal opinions.

I'm not speculating about anything. I'm commenting on the first game being hugely popular and creating certain expectations about a sequel based on Joel being the main character.

I'm also taking issue with the decisions being about ART. The female base in gaming is in the mid-30% range. Sony and Naughty Dog knew they'd get all the males back for TLOU2 on the strength of the first game, and they seemed to make a calculated effort to get more females into gaming by forcing gameplay into purely female characters. Thus, it's not about ART but about MARKETING.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Sony and Naughty Dog knew they'd get all the males back for TLOU2 on the strength of the first game, and they seemed to make a calculated effort to get more females into gaming by forcing gameplay into purely female characters. Thus, it's not about ART but about MARKETING.

Another example of it being about tapping the female market: Uncharted: Lost Legacy. Abandoning Drake in favor of the female characters. Is there any doubt this was a calculated effort by ND/Sony?