News: displays and their technologies

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Just had another measure up, a 75" would be too big for where it's got to go. So that's off.

That sucks. Actually it only takes few days to get used to 75. How about wall mounting?

I think A95K could please you but once again I don't like Sony's conservative approach going by the measurements posted at AVS.

65X95K reportedly has high blooming than the ZD9.

Colour volume of QD-OLEDS looks to be higher than LCDs.

I still think QD-OLED would be the best interim TV tech striking a good balance between brightness, blacks and colour volume

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Just had another measure up, a 75" would be too big for where it's got to go. So that's off.

I have a similar problem, except in my case I'm restricted to 55" which limits my options even more.

The sad thing is, high-end LCD is being increasingly abandoned in that size class; Sony for example released their final 55" X950/X95 series LCD two years ago. They say dwindling sales are the reason. So I feel like I'm kind of being forced to go OLED, and I think OLED is probably the reason people don't buy high-end 55" LCDs anymore to begin with. 55" OLEDs have become very affordable, and when it's the same price for what everyone says is the far superior tech...

[Lee A Stewart]

REPORTS: SAMSUNG DISPLAY TO PULL LCD PLUG IN JUNE

Samsung Display next month will end production of LCD panels, as originally planned before the Covid-19 pandemic, to focus on new display technologies like QD-OLED, according to S. Korean news reports.

As a result, the company’s sister company Samsung Electronics will be fully dependent on third-party LCD panel producers, mostly in China and Taiwan, for its LED and mini LED-based LCD TV production.

https://hdguru.com/reports-samsung-d...-plug-in-june/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by lgans316

I was referring to most of the folks in the owners thread.

Most of them are obsessed with brightness. It is used as the weapon of choice for any discussion. I too like brightness but contrast is important.

Well, it definitely has its merits - https://www.avsforum.com/threads/is-...#post-61682069

But you’re right, other parameters are important, if not more so. What gets me with all these online “discussions” on forums and such, for the amount of time people devote to them, you would think avid TV watchers would actually try to work overtime or at a better paying job in order to purchase more than 1 TV for their home. I really don’t see one type television being perfect for viewing all types of content or in all ambient conditions.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, it definitely has its merits - https://www.avsforum.com/threads/is-...#post-61682069

But you’re right, other parameters are important, if not more so. What gets me with all these online “discussions” on forums and such, for the amount of time people devote to them, you would think avid TV watchers would actually try to work overtime or at a better paying job in order to purchase more than 1 TV for their home. I really don’t see one type television being perfect for viewing all types of content or in all ambient conditions.

I also feel many enthusiasts spend too much time tweaking their sets. I really don't see how they have the time to view anything and enjoy what they are viewing. They are too busy looking for faults and ways to correct them.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I also feel many enthusiasts spend too much time tweaking their sets. I really don't see how they have the time to view anything and enjoy what they are viewing. They are too busy looking for faults and ways to correct them.

Aside from having separate viewing modes for SDR and HDR there is literally nothing I change on my TV. That's the point of doing a calibration - proper calibration I mean - as it's set and forget after that.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What gets me with all these online “discussions” on forums and such, for the amount of time people devote to them, you would think avid TV watchers would actually try to work overtime or at a better paying job in order to purchase more than 1 TV for their home. I really don’t see one type television being perfect for viewing all types of content or in all ambient conditions.

If that truly were the case - that one TV couldn't do justice to all types of content - that would be more the fault of the TVs (or rather, the manufacturers) though, right?

"You need both an LCD and OLED" should never be expected of "avid TV watchers."

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

If that truly were the case - that one TV couldn't do justice to all types of content - that would be more the fault of the TVs (or rather, the manufacturers) though, right?

"You need both an LCD and OLED" should never be expected of "avid TV watchers."

For people who TV watch a variety of content, e.g. gaming, sports, etc., we’ve been thru this before - https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/commen...g_on_the_sony/ .
Sony electronics even admitted that “When an image displayed on the screen that may easily cause image retention the screen brightness gradually reduces in order to protect the TV from image retention. The brightness returns to normal if you change the screen or perform another action that eliminates the risks of image retention.” Heck, at the last shootout Robert hosted, the Sony Electronics rep conceded in private conversation to one of the calibrators you guys follow that this dimming was indeed an issue for some content.

And then Samsung TVs are deal breakers for some, rightfully so IMO, because they don’t offer Dolby Vision.

For a long time, there has been no comprehensive one TV (doing everything better than any other TV model). This really is not unusual with other things in life either. No best camera that does everything better than any other camera. No best motorcycle that succeeds in motocross, ISDE, desert racing above all others. No ‘comprehensive’ ophthalmologist that can perform a vitrectomy better than a retina specialist or a penetrating keratoplasty than a cornea specialist.

I really think all of these type discussions on various forums or message boards regarding ‘the best TV’, year after year after year simply serve as an excuse to engage in online debating or for publicly validating one’s purchasing decision to make one feel better about it. I, for one, will continue to purchase the best tool for the job, TV or whatever, accepting that’s just the way it is until something really special comes along which is truly special and not propped up by extreme marketing.

Then, who knows, after that, I may still have to purchase more than one type TV, if 6P (not 4P as shown at the NAB show, b.t.w.) multi primary TVs come to consumer fruition at a reasonable price point -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffSd68jXN3c#t=30m38s

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I also feel many enthusiasts spend too much time tweaking their sets. I really don't see how they have the time to view anything and enjoy what they are viewing. They are too busy looking for faults and ways to correct them.

I hear ya Paul . Analogy - there’s a shelter at a crossroads in a state park where paidgeek and I ride (actually, just finished a morning/afternoon loop out there) which is down the street from this event - https://stevemcqueencarshow.com/schedule/ where I’m headed to later today after kicking the feet up and resting a bit.

Anyway, the mountain bike riders generally stop by for a moment at the shelter to munch down a power bar, drink some water or energy drink and then hop back on their bikes after a few minutes so they can put in miles before it gets too hot as there’s not much shade in that park.

Then you have the mountain bike tweakers who will remain there for a long time talking about how they tweak this fork or that rear suspension or the geometry of their bikes (stems, etc.) before turning back around from the shelter to return back to the staging area to go home, % - wise, the tweaking talk far outweighs the actual riding of their professed hobby. I never quite understood that either.

Needless to say, you know who’s faster and more content (happier) at that park?...the riders.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aside from having separate viewing modes for SDR and HDR there is literally nothing I change on my TV. That's the point of doing a calibration - proper calibration I mean - as it's set and forget after that.

‘Proper’ and ‘set and forget’
Well, I think in the real world there is even variability in the calibration experience and quality of calibrators - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngHmEz0iOUE#t=46m15s. So, proper to one enthusiast may not be proper to another.

Then, with regards to chasing accuracy, there’s the argument that some people, people who indeed watch TV a lot, perhaps as much/or more than avid audiovideo social media enthusiasts, but are not techno geeks nor care to be….those people, desire a picture that is pleasing to their eyes, accuracy be damned and I don’t begrudge them for it, sort of like some folks who prefer their wives or girlfriends to wear makeup when meeting for dinner rather than an *accurate* natural look. I readily admit that despite my TVs being ‘properly’ calibrated when watching with my wife or others or simply by myself, on occasion, I’ll quickly change a setting midstream with some content to produce a more pleasing picture to our eyes no matter the accuracy or cause of the inaccuracy unrelated to the calibration, i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_7qR8n8oAI#t=20m56s

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I hear ya Paul . Analogy - there’s a shelter at a crossroads in a state park where paidgeek and I ride (actually, just finished a morning/afternoon loop out there) which is down the street from this event - https://stevemcqueencarshow.com/schedule/ where I’m headed to later today after kicking the feet up and resting a bit.

Anyway, the mountain bike riders generally stop by for a moment at the shelter to munch down a power bar, drink some water or energy drink and then hop back on their bikes after a few minutes so they can put in miles before it gets too hot as there’s not much shade in that park.

Then you have the mountain bike tweakers who will remain there for a long time talking about how they tweak this fork or that rear suspension or the geometry of their bikes (stems, etc.) before turning back around from the shelter to return back to the staging area to go home, % - wise, the tweaking talk far outweighs the actual riding of their professed hobby. I never quite understood that either.

Needless to say, you know who’s faster and more content (happier) at that park?...the riders.

When I was a Broadcast Engineer for NBC many years ago we had the first color monitors and TV cameras which were quite expensive. I did not work on the cameras, but I did tweak the huge tube based monitors. What I learned then is that there was no such ting as perfect. You get is as close as possible with alignment and color. That more or less is my current philosophy. No alignment needed on current TVs, but I do adjust the setting on all inputs to what I like the best (which may take some time) and then I leave it alone.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

‘Proper’ and ‘set and forget’
Well, I think in the real world there is even variability in the calibration experience and quality of calibrators - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngHmEz0iOUE#t=46m15s. So, proper to one enthusiast may not be proper to another.

Then, with regards to chasing accuracy, there’s the argument that some people, people who indeed watch TV a lot, perhaps as much/or more than avid audiovideo social media enthusiasts, but are not techno geeks nor care to be….those people, desire a picture that is pleasing to their eyes, accuracy be damned and I don’t begrudge them for it, sort of like some folks who prefer their wives or girlfriends to wear makeup when meeting for dinner rather than an *accurate* natural look. I readily admit that despite my TVs being ‘properly’ calibrated when watching with my wife or others or simply by myself, on occasion, I’ll quickly change a setting midstream with some content to produce a more pleasing picture to our eyes no matter the accuracy or cause of the inaccuracy unrelated to the calibration, i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_7qR8n8oAI#t=20m56s

There are still industry standards for white point, colour, gamma, greyscale etc are there not? People can like what they like but it's what makes public platforms like this such an absolute shitshow when trying to gauge what something 'actually' looks like (quotation marks added ahead of time for sarcastic replies). Most people are just running whatever the hell they want to run and that's fine, go them, but it makes their opinion worth less than nothing to me because I don't want to know what it looks like to them, I want to know what the 'actual' content is doing. It's partly why I started doing my PSAs on this forum, things were bad enough with plain old SDR but the staggering variances with HDR feedback were/are just ridonkulous. People can't help it if their TV's tone mapping is shit, true enough, yet there's still so much ****ery going on with other settings, ambient light levels etc that can greatly affect the perception of the HDR image and it's bonkers.

But I don't just do accuracy because it simply MUST be accurate - though naturally it helps when doing QC work, who knew? - it's because I genuinely prefer the imagery that I see especially when it comes to SDR. Blasting light through something for daytime viewing is one thing, not that I watch in the daytime or with other ambient light at night anyway, but more than 140 nits peak makes SDR look absolutely hideous to my eyes.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

If that truly were the case - that one TV couldn't do justice to all types of content - that would be more the fault of the TVs (or rather, the manufacturers) though, right?

"You need both an LCD and OLED" should never be expected of "avid TV watchers."

And this day and age, this economical climate, it's staggeringly arrogant to place the onus on people working harder or magically finding a better paid job just so they can have two different types of TV. That literally read like some kind of parody post you'd see at The Onion. Just....wow.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For people who TV watch a variety of content, e.g. gaming, sports, etc., we’ve been thru this before - https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/commen...g_on_the_sony/ .
Sony electronics even admitted that “When an image displayed on the screen that may easily cause image retention the screen brightness gradually reduces in order to protect the TV from image retention. The brightness returns to normal if you change the screen or perform another action that eliminates the risks of image retention.” Heck, at the last shootout Robert hosted, the Sony Electronics rep conceded in private conversation to one of the calibrators you guys follow that this dimming was indeed an issue for some content.

And then Samsung TVs are deal breakers for some, rightfully so IMO, because they don’t offer Dolby Vision.

For a long time, there has been no comprehensive one TV (doing everything better than any other TV model). This really is not unusual with other things in life either. No best camera that does everything better than any other camera. No best motorcycle that succeeds in motocross, ISDE, desert racing above all others. No ‘comprehensive’ ophthalmologist that can perform a vitrectomy better than a retina specialist or a penetrating keratoplasty than a cornea specialist.

I really think all of these type discussions on various forums or message boards regarding ‘the best TV’, year after year after year simply serve as an excuse to engage in online debating or for publicly validating one’s purchasing decision to make one feel better about it. I, for one, will continue to purchase the best tool for the job, TV or whatever, accepting that’s just the way it is until something really special comes along which is truly special and not propped up by extreme marketing.

Then, who knows, after that, I may still have to purchase more than one type TV, if 6P (not 4P as shown at the NAB show, b.t.w.) multi primary TVs come to consumer fruition at a reasonable price point -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffSd68jXN3c#t=30m38s

Re: the bolded, that's a strange analogy. I'm not buying a medical specialist, keeping them around as a slave and expecting them to be able to do something else than their area of expertise. "You're a dentist, but can you perform heart surgery?" Seeing someone about a health issue is quite a different thing from buying a TV. And a TV is a luxury item, my physical health doesn't depend on it.

Me personally, I would still want a TV that's a decent all-rounder for most content, and that isn't an unrealistic expectation. Certainly, manufacturers market their TVs - OLED and LCD alike - as being fit for movies, sports, games, etc. so the customers shouldn't be faulted for thinking it should be able to serve that purpose.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And this day and age, this economical climate, it's staggeringly arrogant to place the onus on people working harder or magically finding a better paid job just so they can have two different types of TV. That literally read like some kind of parody post you'd see at The Onion. Just....wow.

Indeed. The global economy wasn't doing great before, but especially not after a two-year pandemic and the Russia/Ukraine war and their domino effect of consequences on top of that.

Plus, in addition to an individual's personal financial situation (buying both a top LCD and an OLED isn't cheap), living space is also a factor. For lots of people, they simply don't have the room to fit two high-end TVs without it becoming ridiculous. But I guess "just make more money and buy a bigger place" is the solution to that, because it's something everyone can do so easily. Then there's the cultural factor, where European and Asian homes are smaller on average than American ones.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

When I was a Broadcast Engineer for NBC many years ago we had the first color monitors and TV cameras which were quite expensive. I did not work on the cameras, but I did tweak the huge tube based monitors. What I learned then is that there was no such ting as perfect. You get is as close as possible with alignment and color. That more or less is my current philosophy. No alignment needed on current TVs, but I do adjust the setting on all inputs to what I like the best (which may take some time) and then I leave it alone.

Thanks for the trip in the way back machine.

I’m going to date myself with these comments. I’ve always felt that NBC had more pleasing colors on their broadcasts than CBS/ ABC. The Rose Parade colors were gorgeous back in crt days, as were a lot of the prime time shows. A lot of the competing programs had pale, even washed out color looks. And Star Trek was the crazy king of lush primary colors with reds, greens and blues. It was the icing on the cake for those with a color tv in the late 60’s (not everyone did). So, bravo NBC.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

Re: the bolded, that's a strange analogy. I'm not buying a medical specialist, keeping them around as a slave and expecting them to be able to do something else than their area of expertise. "You're a dentist, but can you perform heart surgery?" Seeing someone about a health issue is quite a different thing from buying a TV. And a TV is a luxury item, my physical health doesn't depend on it.

Me personally, I would still want a TV that's a decent all-rounder for most content, and that isn't an unrealistic expectation. Certainly, manufacturers market their TVs - OLED and LCD alike - as being fit for movies, sports, games, etc. so the customers shouldn't be faulted for thinking it should be able to serve that purpose.

Indeed. The global economy wasn't doing great before, but especially not after a two-year pandemic and the Russia/Ukraine war and their domino effect of consequences on top of that.

Plus, in addition to an individual's personal financial situation (buying both a top LCD and an OLED isn't cheap), living space is also a factor. For lots of people, they simply don't have the room to fit two high-end TVs without it becoming ridiculous. But I guess "just make more money and buy a bigger place" is the solution to that, because it's something everyone can do so easily. Then there's the cultural factor, where European and Asian homes are smaller on average than American ones.

Other analogies were offered in that same paragraph . Plus, there are more than a few who find the dimming regarding the aforementioned TV to be a dealbreaker when it comes to gaming or watching sports, ergo two TVs. Not to mention some people actually watch football games with friends in the middle of the afternoon in family rooms with lots of windows where you need as much brightness out of a display as you can get while you eat your pizza and drink your beer.

I could well be wrong, but I really think that the year after year *this is the best TV*, or *this is the newest TV* loyalty debating pastime (and I don’t mean to mock Robert Z. as that is his livelihood and how he supports himself/his family and I truly admire his work ethic ) is not inherently tied to hobbyists’ financial status or living accommodations for most involved. I’m inclined to believe that the people so engaged would still partake in that behavior even if they lived in mansion houses and were comfortable.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But I don't just do accuracy because it simply MUST be accurate - though naturally it helps when doing QC work, who knew? -

Heck Geoff, for the amount of time you devote to it, rather than only an ego boost from the minions or perhaps occasional independent contractor piecemeal gigs, you really should get paid regular with benefits, here ya go - https://www.sonypicturesjobs.com/job...e=linkedin.com
SoCal has more sunny days than your neck of the woods, even David M. on the east coast would be envious of that.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

When I was a Broadcast Engineer for NBC many years ago we had the first color monitors and TV cameras which were quite expensive. I did not work on the cameras, but I did tweak the huge tube based monitors. What I learned then is that there was no such ting as perfect. You get is as close as possible with alignment and color. That more or less is my current philosophy. No alignment needed on current TVs, but I do adjust the setting on all inputs to what I like the best (which may take some time) and then I leave it alone.

I know, I’ve long figured you qualify as a member Emeritus of this chapter - https://www.sbe37.org/

They’ve got some bright people working for NBC, e.g. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyU2-LtWQzs#t=51m59s even getting into ICtCp.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Heck Geoff, for the amount of time you devote to it, rather than only an ego boost from the minions or perhaps occasional independent contractor piecemeal gigs, you really should get paid regular with benefits, here ya go - https://www.sonypicturesjobs.com/job...e=linkedin.com
SoCal has more sunny days than your neck of the woods, even David M. on the east coast would be envious of that.

So it’s okay to receive continual ego boosts (like spamming Top Gun 2 every chance they get, and doing it for what seems like forever) from fawning ‘minions’ on forums as long as you’re a champion of your chosen industry and are “mansion comfortable”. Got it.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

I have a similar problem, except in my case I'm restricted to 55" which limits my options even more.

The sad thing is, high-end LCD is being increasingly abandoned in that size class; Sony for example released their final 55" X950/X95 series LCD two years ago. They say dwindling sales are the reason. So I feel like I'm kind of being forced to go OLED, and I think OLED is probably the reason people don't buy high-end 55" LCDs anymore to begin with. 55" OLEDs have become very affordable, and when it's the same price for what everyone says is the far superior tech...

Indeed, high-end sets at that size have been thrown out due to Vizio, Hisense, TCL, Samsung, (Cheap Asian OEM brands), etc. dominating the 40-65-inch segment with inexpensive low-end UHDTV sets, packing both LED and OLED, with LED being most of the pile at the low and mid-range. I can afford whatever I want, but getting it in the house is an issue, with larger sized screens that come in large packaging, and I will pay for quality, so I would prefer something smaller with high quality hardware in the box.