The Criterion Collection

[Warm Gun]

I don't often receive packages from USPS, but it only happened once with them. My brother gets packages through them all the time. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I got a UPS package, and this is what happens. They just didn't wanna take it upstairs after failing to work the electronic lockers, I bet.

[Vinyl]

What’s everyone’s take on the review of Hollywood Shuffle? It looks like Dr. Svet strikes again.

Again, it seems like he didn’t care for the movie. And again, I don’t think he “got it”.

I didn’t get why he said this in the conclusion:

“However, the overwhelming satire prevents him from striking hard enough to produce lasting ripple effects that would have made it possible for a big enough audience to begin pondering the issues he cared about. Ironically, Townsend's directorial debut could be just as relevant today if you replace racial stereotyping with intellectual stereotyping and begin examining Hollywood's behavior again.”

What is intellectual stereotyping, and why does it trump racial stereotyping?

[JupiterMission]

Originally Posted by Vinyl

What is intellectual stereotyping, and why does it trump racial stereotyping?

He's saying that Hollywood discriminates against Republicans and/or conservatives now, instead of discriminating against racial minorities. I don't think he's saying one trumps the other though, unless I missed it in the review.

Personally, the main thing I'd add or quibble with is that Hollywood also discriminated strongly against conservatives in the 80s, it's just wayyyyy more over-the-top now, lol.

[Cardboard_killer]

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

Personally, the main thing I'd add or quibble with is that Hollywood also discriminated strongly against conservatives in the 80s, it's just wayyyyy more over-the-top now, lol.

You should have seen how they treated socialists in the 50s-60s, or the fascists in the 40s.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

He's saying that Hollywood discriminates against Republicans and/or conservatives now, instead of discriminating against racial minorities. I don't think he's saying one trumps the other though, unless I missed it in the review.

Personally, the main thing I'd add or quibble with is that Hollywood also discriminated strongly against conservatives in the 80s, it's just wayyyyy more over-the-top now, lol.

When exactly? Because it wasn't in the films they regularly put in theaters.

[WillieMLF]

Originally Posted by bergman864

When exactly? Because it wasn't in the films they regularly put in theaters.

Phew, I hear John Wayne was a huge liberal and his movies were just dripping with commie propaganda.

On a more serious note, I just watched the Sidney Poitier documentary that came out a few years ago. He was able to thrive in early Hollywood days because he blended with the overwhelming Hollywood conservatism.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by WillieMLF

Phew, I hear John Wayne was a huge liberal and his movies were just dripping with commie propaganda.

On a more serious note, I just watched the Sidney Poitier documentary that came out a few years ago. He was able to thrive in early Hollywood days because he blended with the overwhelming Hollywood conservatism.

There are a lot of people that did what they had to do and as much as I don't like it I understand why they did it. That's the nature of the business.

[Shanghai Express]

So does Svet just get first dibs on black-starring and black-directed films or...?

[Vinyl]

When I think of how Poitier both managed a career and helped to shift Hollywood culture at the same time while working with severe limitations, the more I respect him.

He understood that the best way to change a huge culture, like Hollywood, is from the inside. He played the long game, and I feel like it paid off in the end.

[JupiterMission]

Originally Posted by bergman864

When exactly? Because it wasn't in the films they regularly put in theaters.

Well, the films of the 80s may look conservative to our eyes now, but there was still a general progressive, liberal boomer, "pushing the edges" kind of ethos to the industry, the people, and the majority of what was getting made, as I'm sure you know. 80s Hollywood was more "conservative" than 70s Hollywood (or 90s-onward Hollywood), but if you watch the Oscars from back then, or even just read interviews and reviews from magazines, there's still a pretty heavy "liberal" tilt compared to the average sentiment. The biz has never been famously conservative, or even particularly moderate, even during the blacklist era funnily enough.

[FragnitoM]

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

He's saying that Hollywood discriminates against Republicans and/or conservatives now, instead of discriminating against racial minorities. I don't think he's saying one trumps the other though, unless I missed it in the review.

Personally, the main thing I'd add or quibble with is that Hollywood also discriminated strongly against conservatives in the 80s, it's just wayyyyy more over-the-top now, lol.

When did intellectual become synonymous with conservative though?

[NeilZ]

Originally Posted by FragnitoM

When did intellectual become synonymous with conservative though?

I think it's fancy way of saying it discriminates against people who hold certain beliefs. I think that's fair criticism. Half the United States roughly hold conservative views (including many who still vote as democrats), and Hollywood often either talks down to, or mocks these individuals beliefs.

I have met and sometimes befriended people in the cities who are die hard conservatives some the kind who even hang out on 4ch and the likes but in presence of others are fake liberals because they need to do this to survive. As a result people with views that disagree with those around them already feel stifled as it is, to have films make commentary about their views just gets to them in all the wrong ways. I'm not even a conservative and I can understand as it's often times so blatantly obvious in movies today.

[JupiterMission]

Originally Posted by FragnitoM

When did intellectual become synonymous with conservative though?

It just means discrimination based on ideology, not discrimination based on intellect.

[Mose Harper]

Hollyweird is a fetid sewer full of pedos, backstabbers, and "woke" liars, thieves, and degenerates who ostentatiously celebrate themselves while poisoning the culture.

AND THEY HAVE THE GALL NOT TO HIRE ME OR FUND MY PROJECTS!

[deadheadbill]

This thread is getting ready to turn into a cesspool.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

Well, the films of the 80s may look conservative to our eyes now, but there was still a general progressive, liberal boomer, "pushing the edges" kind of ethos to the industry, the people, and the majority of what was getting made, as I'm sure you know. 80s Hollywood was more "conservative" than 70s Hollywood (or 90s-onward Hollywood), but if you watch the Oscars from back then, or even just read interviews and reviews from magazines, there's still a pretty heavy "liberal" tilt compared to the average sentiment. The biz has never been famously conservative, or even particularly moderate, even during the blacklist era funnily enough.

Are you talking about Hollywood or the Oscars? Because the Oscars have always been more "liberal" even during the most conservative of times. Gentleman's Agreement won Best Picture while its director was out naming names.

The Production Code was literally created by a politician who made movies more conservative and its restrictions are eerily similar to a lot of what's going on today.

I mean the 80s gave us the PG-13 rating. And a lot of the films of that era would be right at home in the Hays Code.

[Warm Gun]

Guess that's the last time I open a box with a knife. Usually it's safe because there is some padding between the box and the product. Cut slightly through the paper cover as well, but don't see the cut on the other side.

[JupiterMission]

Originally Posted by bergman864

Are you talking about Hollywood or the Oscars? Because the Oscars have always been more "liberal" even during the most conservative of times. Gentleman's Agreement won Best Picture while its director was out naming names.

The Production Code was literally created by a politician who made movies more conservative and its restrictions are eerily similar to a lot of what's going on today.

I mean the 80s gave us the PG-13 rating. And a lot of the films of that era would be right at home in the Hays Code.

Well, I was using Hollywood as a term to mean the southern California movie business as a cultural entity, but that would include the Oscars.

Just so I'm not misunderstood: Initially I was interpreting what I thought Svet meant. I wasn't endorsing or agreeing with the substance of his review. I added the bit about Hollywood being generally anti-conservative in the 80s, just because the idea in Svet's review seemed to be that when Hollywood Shuffle was made there was racial discrimination, but now there's ideological discrimination. I think race and ideology were factors in who got hired and what got made in the 80s, and I think they're factors now. Hence my quibble.

As for the other half of your post, there have been moments in the history of Hollywood where the industry responded to culturally conservative outcry (Production Code, blacklist, PG-13, etc.), but I don't think any of these responses indicate that the industry itself was hegemonically conservative. If anything, it would indicate that that it was not generally conservative, and so conservatives felt the need to reach in and meddle with it to make it moreso. (Which I don't like.)

I think if you go back to the Hays Code or blacklist this whole conversation gets tricky, because back then... well, many of the "liberals" would be "conservative" by today's standards, lol. But keeping it to the 80s - where "liberal" and "conservative" meant approximately what they do today - while there were films with (by today's standards) "conservative" pro-family, pro-America, etc. attitudes, I feel like films were still often full of sex and violence, awards films regularly had left-leaning messages, and the industry bigwigs still generally signaled "liberal" when they signaled politically at all - and none of that stuff that thrilled or thrills cultural conservatives.

[jedidarrick]

Originally Posted by Mose Harper

Hollyweird is a fetid sewer full of pedos, backstabbers, and "woke" liars, thieves, and degenerates who ostentatiously celebrate themselves while poisoning the culture.

AND THEY HAVE THE GALL NOT TO HIRE ME OR FUND MY PROJECTS!

Nice Ben Shapiro impression.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

Well, I was using Hollywood as a term to mean the southern California movie business as a cultural entity, but that would include the Oscars.

Just so I'm not misunderstood: Initially I was interpreting what I thought Svet meant. I wasn't endorsing or agreeing with the substance of his review. I added the bit about Hollywood being generally anti-conservative in the 80s, just because the idea in Svet's review seemed to be that when Hollywood Shuffle was made there was racial discrimination, but now there's ideological discrimination. I think race and ideology were factors in who got hired and what got made in the 80s, and I think they're factors now. Hence my quibble.

As for the other half of your post, there have been moments in the history of Hollywood where the industry responded to culturally conservative outcry (Production Code, blacklist, PG-13, etc.), but I don't think any of these responses indicate that the industry itself was hegemonically conservative. If anything, it would indicate that that it was not generally conservative, and so conservatives felt the need to reach in and meddle with it to make it moreso. (Which I don't like.)

I think if you go back to the Hays Code or blacklist this whole conversation gets tricky, because back then... well, many of the "liberals" would be "conservative" by today's standards, lol. But keeping it to the 80s - where "liberal" and "conservative" meant approximately what they do today - while there were films with (by today's standards) "conservative" pro-family, pro-America, etc. attitudes, I feel like films were still often full of sex and violence, awards films regularly had left-leaning messages, and the industry bigwigs still generally signaled "liberal" when they signaled politically at all - and none of that stuff that thrilled or thrills cultural conservatives.

I'd agree that there was more sex (maybe not so violence) in films of the 80s. But I'd say the outlook and resolution of the films of the 80s skewed more conservatively. Awards in general have always been more left leaning. But it is telling that in 1989, Driving Miss Daisy won Best Picture, a year after the release of Mississippi Burning and the same year as Do the Right Thing. They all deal with racial issues but the Best Picture winner is the one that's probably the most conservative in its reading and harkens back to a time that was out of fashion by then.

Now I don't want this to seem like I'm attacking you personally. And I appreciate that all you're doing is trying to better define the site reviewer's words. But I think the Best Picture winners (and most of the nominees) aren't nearly as radical and liberal with their messaging as the films of 1969 to 1979.

There are reasons for that and but that's a longer conversation for another day.