Best Disney 2-D Theatrical Film?

[boyya111]

I always had a soft spot for Pinocchio.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by boyya111

I always had a soft spot for Pinocchio.

For good reason.

As for this thread -- first of all, I despise the term "2-D" animation. It's not "2-D", it's hand-drawn. Before the rise of computer animation, no one referred to hand-drawn films as "2-D", and I refuse to follow suit. "2-d" animation makes hand-drawn animation sound like some outmoded version of windows. I'll never refer to hand-drawn animation as 2-D...though I'm tempted to start referring to CGI films as "point, click and drag" animation.

As to the topic of this thread:

1. Pinocchio
2. Bambi
3. Fantasia
4. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
5. Dumbo
6. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
7. Cinderella
8. The Three Caballeros
9. Tron
10. Who Framed Roger Rabbit


The Lion King comes in at around #15-#19 on my list. Sorry, in a world that contains such works as Bambi, Fantasia and Pinocchio, not to mention the works of outside studios, the idea that The Lion King is anything other than a derivative remake of Bambi laced with bits of Hamlet and Henry IV, all pumped up with pop songs and sitcom-style dialog -- the idea that the thing is somehow the greatest animated film of all time...well, it's just damned painful to read. It hurts. Its comparable to reading someone claim The New Kids on The Block song "Hangin' Tough" is the greatest song of all time.

The Lion King's not crap -- I'm just not sure its art, although there is art in it. In no way does it even approach the complexities, achievement, and maturity of Bambi, Pinocchio and Fantasia. It has no place on any list of the ten best animated films of all time -- unless the list has a heading of "Best Fart Jokes in an Animated Film" or "Best Pointless Pop-Culture Joke in an Animated Film Before SHREK".

[Mooka-One]

^^^^^ Excellent post Ernest ^^^^^^


my top 5

1. Alice in Wonderland
2. Robin Hood
3. Pinocchio
4. Snow White & The Seven Dwarves
5. Jungle Book


I spent countless saturday afternoons looking after my little cousins watching and rewatching pretty much every disney film ever made!

Alice in Wonderland is just a wonderful piece of art, whether it be the animation or the story itself.
Robin Hood is a very close 2nd, the voice acting is possibly the greatest in animation history, plus its a lot of fun. Oodey Lally!

[Marquoz]

Loved Lilo and Stitch, and the two "Show Me The Money" direct to DVD sequels.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

For good reason.

As for this thread -- first of all, I despise the term "2-D" animation. It's not "2-D", it's hand-drawn. Before the rise of computer animation, no one referred to hand-drawn films as "2-D", and I refuse to follow suit. "2-d" animation makes hand-drawn animation sound like some outmoded version of windows. I'll never refer to hand-drawn animation as 2-D...though I'm tempted to start referring to CGI films as "point, click and drag" animation.

As to the topic of this thread:

1. Pinocchio
2. Bambi
3. Fantasia
4. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
5. Dumbo
6. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
7. Cinderella
8. The Three Caballeros
9. Tron
10. Who Framed Roger Rabbit


The Lion King comes in at around #15-#19 on my list. Sorry, in a world that contains such works as Bambi, Fantasia and Pinocchio, not to mention the works of outside studios, the idea that The Lion King is anything other than a derivative remake of Bambi laced with bits of Hamlet and Henry IV, all pumped up with pop songs and sitcom-style dialog -- the idea that the thing is somehow the greatest animated film of all time...well, it's just damned painful to read. It hurts. Its comparable to reading someone claim The New Kids on The Block song "Hangin' Tough" is the greatest song of all time.

The Lion King's not crap -- I'm just not sure its art, although there is art in it. In no way does it even approach the complexities, achievement, and maturity of Bambi, Pinocchio and Fantasia. It has no place on any list of the ten best animated films of all time -- unless the list has a heading of "Best Fart Jokes in an Animated Film" or "Best Pointless Pop-Culture Joke in an Animated Film Before SHREK".

I see that you have difficulty expressing your passion for the Disney Classics.

Get 'em

[catterwall]

Alice in Wonderland and Aladdin yo. best Disney ever

[glenn-bob]

The Fox and the Hound!!!!

[makaveli21]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

For good reason.

As for this thread -- first of all, I despise the term "2-D" animation. It's not "2-D", it's hand-drawn. Before the rise of computer animation, no one referred to hand-drawn films as "2-D", and I refuse to follow suit. "2-d" animation makes hand-drawn animation sound like some outmoded version of windows. I'll never refer to hand-drawn animation as 2-D...though I'm tempted to start referring to CGI films as "point, click and drag" animation.

As to the topic of this thread:

1. Pinocchio
2. Bambi
3. Fantasia
4. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
5. Dumbo
6. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
7. Cinderella
8. The Three Caballeros
9. Tron
10. Who Framed Roger Rabbit


The Lion King comes in at around #15-#19 on my list. Sorry, in a world that contains such works as Bambi, Fantasia and Pinocchio, not to mention the works of outside studios, the idea that The Lion King is anything other than a derivative remake of Bambi laced with bits of Hamlet and Henry IV, all pumped up with pop songs and sitcom-style dialog -- the idea that the thing is somehow the greatest animated film of all time...well, it's just damned painful to read. It hurts. Its comparable to reading someone claim The New Kids on The Block song "Hangin' Tough" is the greatest song of all time.

The Lion King's not crap -- I'm just not sure its art, although there is art in it. In no way does it even approach the complexities, achievement, and maturity of Bambi, Pinocchio and Fantasia. It has no place on any list of the ten best animated films of all time -- unless the list has a heading of "Best Fart Jokes in an Animated Film" or "Best Pointless Pop-Culture Joke in an Animated Film Before SHREK".

I respectfully disagree, and rank it above all the movies you mention.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by makaveli21

I respectfully disagree, and rank it above all the movies you mention.

Why.
If you're basing your evaluation on entertainment value alone, then the thread should be re-titled "most fun Disney animated film". Unfortunately, the thread topic is "Best" disney animated film, and as such, a whole lot more goes into the mix other than how hard we laughed at Timon dressing in drag and singing "Hawaiian War Chant".

Dumb and Dumber has more laughs and is "more fun" than Schindler's List, The Godfather Part II and Raging Bull, but no one in their right mind would ever try and perusade people that Dumb and Dumber was a better film than Schindler's, Bull, or Godfather. There's more to the mix than your guffaw quotient (not to mention, if you watch Bambi and The Lion King back-to-back, you quickly see how derivative and even shallow the latter film is).

[The Lion King]

Ernest, you give a great argument, and I'll admit that everything you're saying about Bambi is technically correct. It accomplished so much back in 1941 including the infamous scene where Bambi's mother dies. Even The Lion King's creators acknowledged that it was based on Bambi.

But in my defense, The Lion King was not explicitly based on anything else other than Bambi and Hamlet previously (a lot of people say "Kimba the White Lion", but I beg to differ). It is not a rip-off of Bambi, I think it's an homage to Bambi. The music isn't just merely "pop music", it is in my opinion, the greatest music score ever, and it literally comes to life in the film. The animation is right behind The Prince of Egypt as being the some of the most beautiful animation ever seen in an animated film.

A lot of people assume this about Lion King diehards, but I don't like the movie because of Timon and Pumbaa. I don't really get people who like it just because of them when the film offers so much more. Sure, they're awesome and they add a little bit of comedy to the boil and in themselves aren't bad characters at all, but what makes The Lion King great is that even without comedy, everything else in the film is so flawless and works as well as it can possibly work. It borrows key elements from Bambi and Hamlet, but that's all it borrows. It steals nothing, and instead, spit-polishes it and makes it it's own. This is no longer 1941, it's 2008, and The Lion King was made over 50 years after Bambi. Not that they are in any way lesser in quality, but in this day and age, people just no longer want films like Bambi and Fantasia. They need a little bit more.

The Lion King is a modern masterpiece, and because of the perfect, beautiful animation and art, great characters, the best music score ever, humour, emotion, and respect to both the audience and the films it "rips off", I consider it the greatest animated film of all time. It is so much better than the lifeless dreck we are being force-fed nowadays that it makes me want to cry. The only recent films that even come close to The Lion King, or indeed The Little Mermaid or Aladdin, are Happy Feet, Lilo and Stitch, Toy Story 2 and Finding Nemo.

The Lion King's sequel, Simba's Pride, is an extremely rare example of a direct-to-DVD sequel being almost as good as the original, let alone sequels in general. It did a fantastic job on a presumably lower budget, and I don't really think it could've been improved in any way. It's also has an amazing soundtrack - possibly as good as the original's. I love it.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Why.
If you're basing your evaluation on entertainment value alone, then the thread should be re-titled "most fun Disney animated film".

Entertainment value, if done exceedingly well, can make a film more than just "fun". Stop judging The Lion King on entertainment value alone because that isn't a legitimate criticism.

Dumb and Dumber has more laughs and is "more fun" than Schindler's List, The Godfather Part II and Raging Bull, but no one in their right mind would ever try and perusade people that Dumb and Dumber was a better film than Schindler's, Bull, or Godfather

Yes, but that's only because they're completely different in every single way and that no one in their right mind would compare Dumb and Dumber to Schindler's List, The Godfather, or Raging Bull if they were trying to make a point. You can't compare a comedy, which is possibly the polar opposite of those 3 drama films, to Shindler's List, Godfather or Raging Bull and expect it to actually prove a point. The Lion King isn't only "more fun" than Bambi, but it has more going on.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by The Lion King

The Lion King isn't only "more fun" than Bambi, but it has more going on.

So does Treasure Planet, and between the two, I know which one didn't insult my intelligence enough to own on disk.

[Octavio]

"Fantasia" it's my favorite.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by The Lion King

Ernest, you give a great argument, and I'll admit that everything you're saying about Bambi is technically correct. It accomplished so much back in 1941 including the infamous scene where Bambi's mother dies. Even The Lion King's creators acknowledged that it was based on Bambi.

It was referred to as "Hambi" in pre-pro...Hamlet meets Bambi.

But in my defense, The Lion King was not explicitly based on anything else other than Bambi and Hamlet previously (a lot of people say "Kimba the White Lion", but I beg to differ).

I can't say that The Lion King wasn't flavored by urban story artists who saw Kimba growing up (that show sure didn't play out here in the sticks), but its another thing entirely to say the entire movie was a rip-off of a show starring a white lion. Anyone familiar with Disney history (*especially* the True-Life Adventure "The African Lion" and Bambi) will easily see the massive influence both had on the move.

The music isn't just merely "pop music", it is in my opinion, the greatest music score ever, and it literally comes to life in the film. The animation is right behind The Prince of Egypt as being the some of the most beautiful animation ever seen in an animated film.

Wow, do we disagree on animation -- I found The Prince of Egypt to be unbearably stiff...as if the animators were afraid to move and betray their shortcomings. It has striking visuals, but in the end, its just a pastiche of scenes, with wild variances in tone, as uncomfortable in its own skin as The Black Cauldron or Pocahontas.

A lot of people assume this about Lion King diehards, but I don't like the movie because of Timon and Pumbaa. I don't really get people who like it just because of them when the film offers so much more. Sure, they're awesome and they add a little bit of comedy to the boil and in themselves aren't bad characters at all, but what makes The Lion King great is that even without comedy, everything else in the film is so flawless and works as well as it can possibly work.

I can't imagine The Lion King without comedy. The film is *primarily* a musical comedy, with some drama thrown in. Anytime things get too serious, someone gets bonked on the head or drops a pop-culture reference to Taxi Driver. The film strikes a sitcom tone from its first scene with dialog, and this glib sensibility runs rampant throughout the remainder. How is this film great without its comedy? The comedy is what made it "great" in the first place.

It borrows key elements from Bambi and Hamlet, but that's all it borrows. It steals nothing and instead, spit-polishes it and makes it it's own. This is no longer 1941, it's 2008, and The Lion King was made over 50 years after Bambi. Not that they are in any way lesser in quality, but in this day and age, people just no longer want films like Bambi and Fantasia. They need a little bit more.

If you think The Lion King is in no way lesser in quality than Bambi, then there's no talking to you, because I don't have three years to educate you in animation history and technique, let alone educate you in why Bambi doesn't pause mid-way through the apocalytpic forest fire for fart jokes, Taxi-Driver riffs, and Bruce Lee Kung Fu comedy. Comparing the two speaks for itself. Either you have eyes to see, or you don't, and I don't have time to lend you my eyes.

The Lion King is a modern masterpiece, and because of the perfect, beautiful animation and art, great characters, the best music score ever

.

Best score EVER?

I consider it the greatest animated film of all time. It is so much better than the lifeless dreck we are being force-fed nowadays that it makes me want to cry. The only recent films that even come close to The Lion King, or indeed The Little Mermaid or Aladdin, are Happy Feet, Lilo and Stitch, Toy Story 2 and Finding Nemo.

Ever see Grave of the Firelies? Princess Mononoke? Spirited Away? Yellow Submarine?

The Lion King's sequel, Simba's Pride, is an extremely rare example of a direct-to-DVD sequel being almost as good as the original, let alone sequels in general.

Okay, this has to be a joke. I can't believe I just fell for it. Apologies to all. I've just been Punk'd.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

It was referred to as "Hambi" in pre-pro...Hamlet meets Bambi.



I can't say that The Lion King wasn't flavored by urban story artists who saw Kimba growing up (that show sure didn't play out here in the sticks), but its another thing entirely to say the entire movie was a rip-off of a show starring a white lion. Anyone familiar with Disney history (*especially* the True-Life Adventure "The African Lion" and Bambi) will easily see the massive influence both had on the move.



Wow, do we disagree on animation -- I found The Prince of Egypt to be unbearably stiff...as if the animators were afraid to move and betray their shortcomings. It has striking visuals, but in the end, its just a pastiche of scenes, with wild variances in tone, as uncomfortable in its own skin as The Black Cauldron or Pocahontas.



I can't imagine The Lion King without comedy. The film is *primarily* a musical comedy, with some drama thrown in. Anytime things get too serious, someone gets bonked on the head or drops a pop-culture reference to Taxi Driver. The film strikes a sitcom tone from its first scene with dialog, and this glib sensibility runs rampant throughout the remainder. How is this film great without its comedy? The comedy is what made it "great" in the first place.



If you think The Lion King is in no way lesser in quality the The Lion King, then there's no talking to you, because I don't have three years to educate you in animation history and technique, let alone educate you in why Bambi doesn't pause mid-way through the apocalytpic forest fire for fart jokes, Taxi-Driver riffs, and Bruce Lee Kung Fu comedy. Comparing the two speaks for itself. Either you have eyes to see, or you don't, and I don't have time to lend you my eyes.

.

Best score EVER?



Ever see Grave of the Firelies? Princess Mononoke? Spirited Away? Yellow Submarine?



Okay, this has to be a joke. I can't believe I just fell for it. Apologies to all. I've just been Punk'd.

Barely, through all my tears. Beautifull storytelling and images.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

It was referred to as "Hambi" in pre-pro...Hamlet meets Bambi.

Except for the anime-literate animators (there are a few part-time fans at Disney, you know--It might help you too, if you're going to quote Fireflies and Spirited ), who echoed Matthew Broderick's sentiments that he "thought they were doing a Kimba movie". Unquote.
And he said that in 1993.

I can't say that The Lion King wasn't flavored by urban story artists who saw Kimba growing up (that show sure didn't play out here in the sticks), but its another thing entirely to say the entire movie was a rip-off of a show starring a white lion. Anyone familiar with Disney history (*especially* the True-Life Adventure "The African Lion" and Bambi) will easily see the massive influence both had on the move.

If we're going by the "Wouldn't remember it" defense, think it's particularly easier to remember a 1989 series that Disney execs reportedly saw hyped during a business trip to Tokyo (um, so how long does it take Disney to make an animated movie, from pre-pro to finish?), back when studio execs were the last ones to realize that other countries made animation too, isn't that neat-o?
And since Disney was into their jungle-2-jungle "Americanized remake" craze, we could've had a Doraemon or Gundam movie (and almost did have a Star Blazers movie), if not for everyone who didn't grow up in the sticks remembering that 60's lion show when they were kids, and having at least heard of THAT one.
Again, for the exact same reason we got a Speed Racer movie, and not a Death Note one of our own.

And as shown by Katzenberg's later, um, appropriations of A Bug's Life, Finding Nemo, Treasure Planet, and the early drafts of Emperor's New Groove and Home on the Range (oh, what, we're going to call him innocent on those, too?), he can try to steal anything that isn't nailed down in negotiations, but he never quite gets it correct--
Bad memory mutates the story, replaced by default Katz-Formula cliche', and it doesn't quite survive the telephone game in the end.

I can't imagine The Lion King without comedy. The film is *primarily* a musical comedy, with some drama thrown in. Anytime things get too serious, someone gets bonked on the head or drops a pop-culture reference to Taxi Driver. The film strikes a sitcom tone from its first scene with dialog, and this glib sensibility runs rampant throughout the remainder.

Oddly enough, this was my chief complaint about Beauty & the Beast, as well--
Although that one at least had an excuse to have a short artistic attention span...

[The Lion King]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Wow, do we disagree on animation -- I found The Prince of Egypt to be unbearably stiff...as if the animators were afraid to move and betray their shortcomings. It has striking visuals, but in the end, its just a pastiche of scenes, with wild variances in tone, as uncomfortable in its own skin as The Black Cauldron or Pocahontas.

Yeah, I think we really disagree here. I love animation. It's almost my favourite type of film. The Prince of Egypt has easily the most epic and visually beautiful animation I've ever seen. I understand where you're coming from a bit, I mean the faces maybe aren't as full of expression as they would or could've been, but to tell you the truth, I never actually noticed it until you pointed it out. It really doesn't matter when the rest of the movie has such fantastic animation that you could pay me to find everything wrong with it and I still wouldn't be able to.

I can't imagine The Lion King without comedy. The film is *primarily* a musical comedy, with some drama thrown in. Anytime things get too serious, someone gets bonked on the head or drops a pop-culture reference to Taxi Driver. The film strikes a sitcom tone from its first scene with dialog, and this glib sensibility runs rampant throughout the remainder. How is this film great without its comedy? The comedy is what made it "great" in the first place.

We clearly disagree again. I forgot The Lion King even had comedy in it untill I saw it for the first time in ages a few months ago. The Lion King has some comedy, just like virtually every other Disney movie. You can think The Lion King is just a comedy with fart jokes, with things getting bonked on the head thrown in to distract from the contrived drama, but don't get me involved because that really couldn't be further from the truth.

If you think The Lion King is in no way lesser in quality than Bambi, then there's no talking to you, because I don't have three years to educate you in animation history and technique, let alone educate you in why Bambi doesn't pause mid-way through the apocalytpic forest fire for fart jokes, Taxi-Driver riffs, and Bruce Lee Kung Fu comedy.

...and you think I'm being silly.

Seriously though, The Lion King doesn't even have fart jokes besides from a few scenes with Timone and Pumbaa. And the reason Bambi doesn't have fart jokes is because fart jokes in cinema hadn't been invented then.

Best score EVER?

Yes. The Lord of the Rings scores and Kill Bill's soundtrack are both so beautiful, but The Lion King's music is not just a fantastic music score composed by some of the greatest film musical composers ever, it's part of the film. It is, in my opinion, the best score EVER.

Okay, this has to be a joke. I can't believe I just fell for it. Apologies to all. I've just been Punk'd.

I feel the same way about some of your arguments.

[crazybat_07]

Pinocchio for me!!!!!!!!!! Followed very closely by Peter Pan.

[Go Blue]

I can't count how many times I have seen Robin Hood.

[Beta Man]

The inner child (and outter hippie) in me, selected "Alice in Wonderland" it's GREAT!!!! The puns, and sharp-tongued dialogue were TOP NOTCH!

[Gizz]

Don't get me wrong there are some other great films on the list but this one is my top favourite.