The Digital Bits; "Grain is supposed to be there!"

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

mmm.. sounds just like slides/positive film

Slides every time.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mhafner

That wish may well be granted. The trend is going digital or low grain film with little to no visible noise. Grain can be added in post as desired.

I agree, and in regards to your comment of “going digital” that’s because digital cameras are actually becoming more and more similar to *the look* of film cam footage since the progression from original digital cameras like the Sony HDW 700A , 750 (and overall cost savings with digital cinematography).
For example, did anyone here immediately notice while watching Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story, that it was shot with a “digtal” camera rather than on film?
I think not.

Less grain in major motion pictures has been going on for quite a while
(see - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=301 ) and I feel that for the large part it’s a stylistic trend. The important thing is to maintain the Director’s vision in regards to his work whether it was done in 1980 or 2008.

Other trends that seem to be evolving with more modern day films, which I never hear any forum members debate, are overuse of close-ups, rapid-cut editing (as in Batman Begins -1.9 seconds, or The Bourne Ultimatum - < 2 sec. ), and “wobble-cam” i.e.-- unsteady camera shots (as in The Bourne Ultimatum, Cloverfield, etc.) Now, if anyone tells me that they consider the later two movies to be any more “real-like” or “natural” than a classic movie with a bit more texture (grain) and zero hand-held shots, then I suggest that you may be suffering from vertical nystagmus and are on speed.

Sometimes I’m convinced that the current evolving cinematic trends (“wobble-cam” shots, rapid-cut editing, excessive close-ups) are related to Directors and Producers being influenced by television (“wobble-cam” examples being The Shield, Friday Night Lights, etc.) more than anything else.

[WickyWoo]

I'm convinced more than anything that there's a lot of people who need to rediscover the steadicam

Of course, my favorite poster child is Battlefield Earth. On top of being an abomidable horriffic movie, there's hardly a single shot in it that's actually level

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

I'm convinced more than anything that there's a lot of people who need to rediscover the steadicam

I swear, the sales of those things recently must have plummeted.

[BStecke]

The rapid editing in Batman Begins was the only thing I didn't like, especially for the fight scenes. Honestly it felt like Nolan didn't know how to shoot the action so he made it look like action whlle actually not showing much. I watched the doc. on the fighting style they used for the movie (Keysi) and I thought, "That's pretty cool, if we could actually see it happen in the movie."

[Knight-Errant]

Hey Penton, those things have been frustrating me for years. The only reason I don't complain about them is I know it would do no good lol.

I love older films for their compositions and editing and how easy it is to look at them without feeling claustrophobic or squinting to see what's going on in the shots before they cut to something else heh.

Fast cutting and close-ups both have a place and in moderation they're great tools of course.

Oh well at least there's an upper limit to how fast cutting can go. One frame shots anyone?


Am I right in thinking that it can be a cash saving measure?
The need only to light someone's face as opposed to a full set for instance?

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Other trends that seem to be evolving with more modern day films, which I never hear any forum members debate, are overuse of close-ups, rapid-cut editing (as in Batman Begins -1.9 seconds, or The Bourne Ultimatum - < 2 sec. ), and “wobble-cam” i.e.-- unsteady camera shots (as in The Bourne Ultimatum, Cloverfield, etc.) Now, if anyone tells me that they consider the later two movies to be any more “real-like” or “natural” than a classic movie with a bit more texture (grain) and zero hand-held shots, then I suggest that you may be suffering from vertical nystagmus and are on speed.

Sometimes I’m convinced that the current evolving cinematic trends (“wobble-cam” shots, rapid-cut editing, excessive close-ups) are related to Directors and Producers being influenced by television (“wobble-cam” examples being The Shield, Friday Night Lights, etc.) more than anything else.

I have yet to see TBU, so I can't comment on it, but I've seen the first two, so I understand what you're saying. I honestly don't remember the "rapid-cut editing" of BB, and I have yet to see "Cloverfield".

That being said, I never paid it a lot attention as it was always a "artistic choice". The only "artistic choice" I ever really paid any negative attention to was when you watch a movie and the colors are so "blown out" that it becomes "weird". Some films that use this "technique" ("Pitch Black" for instance) make sense... but I've often found myself distracted by "Romantic Comedies" (or dramas) that use this technique, and I've found myself distracted by it during the film. In the case of "Friday Night Lights", I feel that the "wobble cam" works!

But, to go more off-topic for a moment, I can't help but think of "The Perfect Storm" whenever I think off "wobble". I was told it made someone a little "green" watching this movie on a big-screen TV... and I'm not even sure if that was on a DVD or VHS, so I'll be very interested in seeing if anybody gets a little "green" behind the gills from watching the upcoming BD release. I once spoke to a woman at Wal-Mart (after helping her find copies of the first two "Left Behind" movies and the "Extended" edition of the first LOTR movie for her son), and she began to tell me that her son was in the (if I remember correctly) Coast Guard, and he would (when he got the chance) call her on the phone, and he'd tell her stories of their day, and she told me that she'd wish he wasn't quite so detailed as their vessel would often encounter some of the waves and weather similar (though obviously not quite the same) as what the men in TPS went through....

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Of course, my favorite poster child is Battlefield Earth. On top of being an abomidable horriffic movie, there's hardly a single shot in it that's actually level

The only thing I really remember about BE (I saw it in theaters) besides wondering what happened to the careers of the people in it, was the controversy about it. I disregarded the warnings about being "brainwashed" and went and saw it, and just like I predicted, no brainwashing occured... though I did have a weird desire to have Tom Cruise's children ( )... but I digress!

BUT BACK TO THE TOPIC OF GRAIN:

Due to Max's prodding, I purchased "A Passage To India" (along with Narnia and "Predator") and received them week before last. APTI now ranks among some of my favorite BDs in regards to PQ quality as it simply looks amazing... and what's more, it appears the BD actually has some interesting looking extras... which will be definate viewing soon... something I can't say about most film's extras.

I even showed it to my Grandmother last night who was very impressed by the PQ... of whom I am proud to say (along with my Mother) DO NOT support DNR... as even they can understand why using it is a BAD THING!!

~Alan

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Knight-Errant

Hey Penton, those things have been frustrating me for years. The only reason I don't complain about them is I know it would do no good lol.

I love older films for their compositions and editing and how easy it is to look at them without feeling claustrophobic or squinting to see what's going on in the shots before they cut to something else heh.

Fast cutting and close-ups both have a place and in moderation they're great tools of course.

Oh well at least there's an upper limit to how fast cutting can go. One frame shots anyone?


Am I right in thinking that it can be a cash saving measure?
The need only to light someone's face as opposed to a full set for instance?

You’re right in the sense that once you do the master shot, the production costs begin to increase as you do more and more coverage shots. But in this case I think it’s just a stylistic trend.

My problem with it is that it seems to be used excessively in current motion pictures and after a while it completely loses its emotional impact as a tool. Other movies with their more distant framings and longer takes, allow one to follow the evolution of a feeling through the actor’s behavior (the character development) better and when needed, the close-up can be utilized thus carrying a lot more emotional weight.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

That being said, I never paid it a lot attention as it was always a "artistic choice".

As is the use of grain in many cases for stylistic reasons.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

The only "artistic choice" I ever really paid any negative attention to was when you watch a movie and the colors are so "blown out" that it becomes "weird"........

Then prepare yourself to be "weirded out" with Che (shot with the RedOne).
I find hard clipped highlights to be most annoying when they include a great deal of the frame or a region in the frame where the viewer naturally keys in on……..like a person’s face or the brightest area of the frame.

[WickyWoo]

I swear, the sales of those things recently must have plummeted.

I could probably find out. The guy who invented it is a friend of my best friend's mom
Every time they do a reperatory screening of Rocky out here, he shows up since that was pretty much
as testbed for it

Trivia Question for all: Which film company now possesses the Movieola that Rocky was cut on, and what movie was
just released that was cut on it? (Hint, it's NOT Indiana Jones)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

no brainwashing occured....

Then try watching this for a few minutes as you’re attempting to remember your password………..
http://www.screenwritersfederation.org/

Some people claim there’s a subliminal message being sent.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

In the case of "Friday Night Lights", I feel that the "wobble cam" works!
~Alan

I like Friday Night Lights , but whenever my wife and I watch it, we make sure we sit 3 times further away (I’m serious) from the screen as we do when we watch a typical classic (grainy) movie.

Does that tell you something ?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

Due to Max's prodding, I purchased "A Passage To India" (along with Narnia and "Predator") and received them week before last. APTI now ranks among some of my favorite BDs in regards to PQ quality as it simply looks amazing... and what's more, it appears the BD actually has some interesting looking extras... which will be definate viewing soon... something I can't say about most film's extras.
~Alan

See........................
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2728

Then you can go back to ......................
http://www.screenwritersfederation.org/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

I could probably find out. The guy who invented it is a friend of my best friend's mom

Wicky, see if you can post a pic (they should be all over the internet) so that everyone here knows what the hell you're talking about.

Meanwhile, I'll try to find of pic of what Maya plans to be chasing this coming summer on the Uni backlot............if it shows up again this year as it moves on a track and bugs the hell out of her but, at least its steady and not wobbly!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Meanwhile, I'll try to find of pic of what Maya plans to be chasing this coming summer on the Uni backlot............if it shows up again this year as it moves on a track and bugs the hell out of her but, at least its steady and not wobbly!

^
See first part of the clip (after all dem advertising numbers and such)

http://www.cinegearexpo.com/video.html

[Knight-Errant]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You’re right in the sense that once you do the master shot, the production costs begin to increase as you do more and more coverage shots. But in this case I think it’s just a stylistic trend.

My problem with it is that it seems to be used excessively in current motion pictures and after a while it completely loses its emotional impact as a tool. Other movies with their more distant framings and longer takes, allow one to follow the evolution of a feeling through the actor’s behavior (the character development) better and when needed, the close-up can be utilized thus carrying a lot more emotional weight.

Cheers for the response Penton, I appreciate it. I agree entirely with your points too.

Oh well, maybe there'll be a reaction against this trend shortly and shooting in a more traditional style will become a novelty for filmmakers I'm studying film production at the moment and am always turning to older films for my inspiration.

[WickyWoo]

here's your pic

http://www.steadicam.com/userimages/...324_std(1).pdf

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As is the use of grain in many cases for stylistic reasons.

I direct your attention to: Post #78 and Post #80 of the Transformers Blu-ray on Sept. 2 according to tvshowsondvd.com thread.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Then prepare yourself to be "weirded out" with Che (shot with the RedOne).

I've seen "Traffic", I've seen "Erin Brockovich", so I can imagine what "Guerrilla" (what IMDB is calling "Che" now) will look like.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Then try watching this for a few minutes as you’re attempting to remember your password………..
http://www.screenwritersfederation.org/

Some people claim there’s a subliminal message being sent.

I'm glad to see that the "Screen Writer's Federation" does NOT support DNR!!

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I like Friday Night Lights , but whenever my wife and I watch it, we make sure we sit 3 times further away (I’m serious) from the screen as we do when we watch a typical classic (grainy) movie.

Does that tell you something ?

More than a little...

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

See........................
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2728

Then you can go back to ......................
http://www.screenwritersfederation.org/

I don't understand going back to the bottom link after reading the other post?

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

here's your pic

http://www.steadicam.com/userimages/...324_std(1).pdf

I knew exactly what you were talking about Wicky, and while they may or may not work as well, don't they make smaller ones as well?

~Alan

[WickyWoo]

There are steadicams for everything from your palm sized camcorder to the biggest movie cameras