Belladonna of Sadness 4K UHD (1973)

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by Prince_7

You bought close to 700 4K discs and still don't have a display that can even remotely come close to replicating what the people making it saw, and yet you try to lecture them about it ?

That's pure comedy right there.

I’m not lecturing, I simply stated my observation of less to no film grain in specific shots compared to the UK 4K. I’ve even said I’m curious to hear from others once they get the disc. I’d even like to see screen shot comparisons.

I’ve come close to buying several 4K tv options in the last few years but there is always something that lacks for the display. The latest Sony flagship model gets high marks but many have had different issues, including a slight pink or green tint on dark/black images. So I’m cautious of throwing $5,000 to that model that according to many on AVR forums is causing lots of headaches for buyers.

I love my plasma flagship master panel. I have friends with 4K tvs and I cringe at the quality, some look downright horrendous. It’s what keeps me thinking better models will come along.

As for owning close to 700 4K discs, you’re welcome. I hope I’ve helped sales of the format.

When I started buying I was future proofing… but once I knew I could watch them downrezzed SDR I thought cool why not, I get better compression even if it’s HD only. And of course many release were throwing Atmos mixes on the 4K discs only and I’d already spent an insane amount for my atmos setup and in ceiling speakers.

[andreasy969]

@PowellPressburger Just ignore it. I already own the UK one, would've upgraded for better compression and did appretiate the warning.

[Geoff D]

Somehow, DNR returned.

[EddieLarkin]

Discotek did the same thing with Space Adventure Cobra, one of the worst discs I've seen, where the HDR is eyeball searing (with little additional range that I could find) but the image totally flat because all of the grain has been removed. This is completely the wrong approach to film based animation and should be fought against. Instead, go for a very restrained HDR grade, perhaps with a few of bright moments when appropriate.

As Fidelity in Motion stated elsewhere, it is not true at all that one must remove grain to master in HDR.

Also, pretty funny to criticise the UK disc (and US Blu-ray) as poorly compressed (which they are), claim you will do a better job, and then DNR the master, making the compression job all that easier!

[Labor_Unit001]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Discotek did the same thing with Space Adventure Cobra, one of the worst discs I've seen, where the HDR is eyeball searing (with little additional range that I could find) but the image totally flat because all of the grain has been removed. This is completely the wrong approach to film based animation and should be fought against. Instead, go for a very restrained HDR grade, perhaps with a few of bright moments when appropriate.

Space Adventure Cobra was a transfer handed to Discotek by the licensor. Discotek did not handle the restoration for that one.

[Prince_7]

I agree on Cobra 4K looking poor. The APL is way too high making for only a select few scenes (such as the shooting range one, or Lady Armaroid playing the organ) having any range, the rest of the movie just hurts my eyes.
The DNR pass on it is also quite bad, the linework shimmers a great deal, it's very unpleasant.

VAP/TMS did a much better job with the 4K disc of Lupin III: Mystery of Mamo which has a much lower APL, allowing for proper HDR, but also doesn't suffer from as poor a DNR pass (the linework doesn't shimmer like crazy this time around).

I have not seen how the Ashita no Joe 2 movie looks on the 4K release, hopefully it's more in line with Mamo than Cobra.

[ajaystewart]

Originally Posted by Sessame

Appealing to authority, quoting people who aren't part of the conversation, and saying nothing of substance is not the slam dunk win you think it is.

Sit this one out, bud.

You're simply not equipped for the conversation and your feelings are clearly hurt given you're now ignoring countless people more informed than you, citing fallacies like this is high school debate club. You're being given facts and explanations from people in the know. Listen.

[Sessame]

Originally Posted by ajaystewart

Sit this one out, bud.

You're simply not equipped for the conversation and your feelings are clearly hurt given you're now ignoring countless people more informed than you, citing fallacies like this is high school debate club. You're being given facts and explanations from people in the know. Listen.

Must have struck a nerve.

I can almost taste the salt.

[asmodeux21]

Before this thread turns into an all out battle royale, let's all wait for the disc and judge it for ourselves. I was initially upset after reading the first review, but I need to see it for myself to fully evaluate it. Yes, I have my own strong opinions regarding film grain and DNR. I would love to see screenshot comparisons and more detailed reviews in this thread.

[Enigmo_1]

Originally Posted by asmodeux21

Before this thread turns into an all out battle royale, let's all wait for the disc and judge it for ourselves. I was initially upset after reading the first review, but I need to see it for myself to fully evaluate it. Yes, I have my own strong opinions regarding film grain and DNR. I would love to see screenshot comparisons and more detailed reviews in this thread.

screenshots still won't give you a proper indication of how grainy it'll look in HDR.

Ofc some here will tell u SDR screenshots are good enough bc to them grain visibility doesn't change from SDR to HDR apparently. To them grain is this magical thing and isn't just pixels spread out across shadows, mids, and highlights like the other pixels that change from SDR to HDR.

also it's funny people here think David Mackenzie, a compressionist, is more qualified to speak on the issue rather than Peter Richards...a guy who actually is responsible for transferring films, off his Arriscan XT, for UHDs by Criterion and partaking in creating their 4K HDR masters and not just compressing them.

[kmhofmann]

Good to know that in the future I better avoid Discotek releases. Not just for some completely unnecessary application of grain management but also for some of the blatant falsehoods people associated with this release seem to be asserting.

Sorry, I just don't believe them and ergo don't think they are actual professionals.

A blanket statement such as HDR requiring grain management is such massive BS I don't even know where to start. For starters, HDR doesn't mean one needs to push the image all the way to 1000 nits - 200 is plenty enough, thank you very much. Furthermore, there are countless examples of films on UHD with HDR that are not grain managed in any appreciable way.
Also, gigan72 has summarized it here quite well.

Iffy compression in the reds aside, the UK 4K UHD release actually looks nice enough - including properly retained grain.

If the Discotek release has visibly less grain than the UK 4K UHD, then whoever worked on this certainly made very, very poor choices.

[peppapigstan]

Maybe for live action films, you can get away with virtually no DNR due to the nature of the medium, and even then, there's some examples where the whole image is more grain than actual footage but I suppose people love that:

For animation, I agree we need white specks of dots on the screen, I snort ounces of them, but the structure becomes more easy to notice due to flat nature of the medium. Everyone loves the Heavy Metal disc so I know I'm going to get flayed here, but honestly the grain is the first thing I noticed about that UHD & honestly overtakes the actual artwork in a distracting way. I'd probably soften the grain by a tiny smidge, but yeah flay me

Examples of the Heavy Metal UHD btw:



Also want to bring up the HDR thingy, a more nuanced grade would be more preferrable in my opinion so I can agree on that like 500-800 nits tops, but I do know watching Ghost in the Shell's JP UHD and then seeing the brighter US UHD, I felt as if the JP UHD nearly completely zapped the grain with the darker color grade but in reality, brightening it up a bit shows the same amount of grain as the US UHD (same transfer anyways)

I also do know that DNR helps CC, I remember Justin Sevakis having difficulty with color-correction/fixes for A-ko without doing some filtering because the grain was just that nasty in certain shots, but I'll let him post the screencaps since they're not on twitter anymore

Also I recall someone from MediaOCD (idr who) talking about how they talked to some Criterion members about DNR & how most industry professionals actually use DNR & then re-applying with a softer grain field & no one notices, so make that of what you will. Of course, I don't have any more concrete proof so I'll let whomever from that company talk (I am not a MediaOCD member, but hire me if you're looking :3c I can graphic design stuff or do CC)

[mr.burr.jangles]

The irony of someone smooth brain that thinks 200nits is acceptable HDR and doesn't know most bluray's have some grain management insulting others intelligence is astounding. Don't know if it's peak idiot or just peak poor and can't afford an OLED.

[dallywhitty]

This thread is giving me herpes.

[Kyle15]

I like the movie

[dallywhitty]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

I like the movie

What movie?

[peppapigstan]

i love the part where she goes on an acid trip and we see schoolhouse rock looking ahhh creatures

[Sessame]

Conservative HDR grades are 100% valid choices and if you have to use so much grain removal to make HDR work, then you've made some really poor decisions.

It's humorous tho seeing Discotek employees (And alts?) be this mad about any hint of valid criticism. It's like they are doing preemptive damage control.

Some real professionalism in this thread that's for sure.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by dallywhitty

What movie?

Connashimmy whoa Belladoannah. Cult classic animation film from Japan. Anime heckin sucks though i just watch it for the laughs like its really low budget and stuff the scenes with no animation is so crazy. and like there's a bunch of unecesary n*dity in it too and stuff it's basically a gooner movie..

[peppapigstan]

Originally Posted by Sessame

Conservative HDR grades are 100% valid choices and if you have to use so much grain removal to make HDR work, then you've made some really poor decisions.

It's humorous tho seeing Discotek employees (And alts?) be this mad about any hint of valid criticism. It's like they are doing preemptive damage control.

Some real professionalism in this thread that's for sure.

I'm only in school, feel free to venmo me for my tuition I'm paying a lot for it :3c
also how would you suggest HDR to work without making the grain abrasive?