Guitar Hero: Metallica

[Thegide]

Originally Posted by darkpoet25

Have you ever listened to Morbid Angel before? Trey Azagthoth is a crazy assed guitarist who writes in nothing but 32nd notes. It's amazing to hear him play, and Pete Sandoval is an insanely fast drummer.

If MA is your thing, you must be familiar with Behemoth... Demigod is excellent.

[SS316SRV]

Originally Posted by Thegide

Uh oh, here it comes. See now you've just mistaken your opinion for fact and now you'll have to endure the wrath of all the other opinionated musicians on this board, including myself.

On what criteria do you consider EVH to be the best [mainstream] player of the 80s? And moreover, why do you feel the need to restrict this ranking to mainstream music? In my opinion, EVH had nothing on players such as Paul Gilbert or Steve Vai, and many others, except for maybe a nasty drug habit. As far as technical ability goes, there were faster players, and more creative players... both harmonically and melodically speaking. Eddie's biggest "thing" was popularizing - not inventing - two handed tapping.

On the criteria that Eruption was popular because of it's classical elements - do you even know what you're talking about? It was popular because it was a couple minutes of guitar ******y, nothing more. I would suggest you listen to Yngwie Malmsteen's Rising Force if you need examples of classical playing in 80's rock/metal, because they certainly aren't part of Eruption. Perhaps blues or pentatonic licks is more what you were thinking?

Next, you've contradicted yourself claiming in the same post that Eddie was the best player, then changing your opinion to SRV being the best player. Again, I disagree. SRV was perhaps an exceedingly talented blues player, with more technical ability than other blues players of his time - but certainly not the best guitar player period.

I do agree with you, however, regarding the Dragonforce comment. Unfortunately, merely describing them as overrated, is about as underrated of a comment as I can think of. Herman and Sam are sloppy players who hide behind Digitech Whammy pedals among a panel of other mistake-covering effects to give the illusion that they can play faster than anyone has ever played. On top of that, their songwriting ability is mediocre at best - largely ripoffs of 80's power metal riffs with some monotonous scale-running for solos. On top of that their maturity level seems about on par with your average 8-year-old, so no, I don't quite care for them either.

Okay...

First, by mainstream I mean the MTV crowd. That crowd knows Eddie, they do not know Steve Vai. Yes, Eruption was just fast tapping and not classical guitar. However, if you look at the score for Eruption and look at some Bach or Chopin, they are very similar in their note progressions. I never claimed SRV to be the best guitar player ever. Just of the 80's to my knowledge, all things considered. I know that there are all kinds of guitar players that I have never heard of who are better I am sure. John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, and Rodrigo y Gabriela are amazing as well. John Mayer is an amazing musician, sure his guitar playing is just above average, but his song writting is outstanding. I am also a believer that guys like Vince Gill, Brad Paisley, and Keith Urban are some of the best guitar players out there right now, but get written off because they are country artists.

These are just my crappy opinions though.

James Hetfield is my personal favorite of all time. Try playing like that and singing. Not easy.

[Thegide]

Hope you know that all this debate is just in good fun, btw... I'm not trying to be harsh, but I do expect that people own up to what they post.

You could argue that MTV was part of the driving popularity of Van Halen though. I wouldn't say that people didn't know who Steve Vai was though, given that he played along with a number of well-known artists including Frank Zappa, Alcatrazz, and David Lee Roth. Now, Roth is important here, because of the fight that was going on with Eddie publicly - this did a lot for Vai's public profile. I wouldn't say that Satch was unknown either. Summer Song was a huge hit played on a lot of radio stations, but Satch's era didn't really start until the beginning of the 90s.

Now, I still don't see where you're pulling classical elements out of Eruption though, so if you're going to stand by this, perhaps you can enlighten me with some examples?

+1 to James deserving credit for his ability to sing and play.

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to off-topic though. It would seem that the thread has been hijacked.

[darkpoet25]

Originally Posted by SS316SRV

I will look into them. I am not that impressed with speed. As good and great as 32nd notes are, Sad but True is one of the heaviest songs Metallica ever did and it so slow. The Thing that Should Not Be is another example of slow and heavy.

Miles Davis and John Coltrane (not metal I know) are two of the greatest pure musicians of the 20th century, and their stuff wan't fast. Give me composition and arrangement over speed any day.

I understand where you are coming from about the speed thing. Trey's playing isn't just all out speed, on their cd's he also has instrumental tracks that he performs. I'm not sure what it is called, but he also has a cd where all he played was Beethoven or Bach on guitar. Someone I used to work with had it and said it was amazing. Music doesn't have to be fast or that technical to sound heavy or brutal. That was what I liked about Dimebag Darrel, he wasn't fast, but had a heavy guitar tone. It's like Gene Simmons once said, "I'd rather hear a simple A Chord that cracks your ribs, than a million notes that sound like an angry bee." And yes thegide I have heard Behemoth before, just not a band I really got into.

[SS316SRV]

Originally Posted by Thegide

Hope you know that all this debate is just in good fun, btw... I'm not trying to be harsh, but I do expect that people own up to what they post.

You could argue that MTV was part of the driving popularity of Van Halen though. I wouldn't say that people didn't know who Steve Vai was though, given that he played along with a number of well-known artists including Frank Zappa, Alcatrazz, and David Lee Roth. Now, Roth is important here, because of the fight that was going on with Eddie publicly - this did a lot for Vai's public profile. I wouldn't say that Satch was unknown either. Summer Song was a huge hit played on a lot of radio stations, but Satch's era didn't really start until the beginning of the 90s.

Now, I still don't see where you're pulling classical elements out of Eruption though, so if you're going to stand by this, perhaps you can enlighten me with some examples?

+1 to James deserving credit for his ability to sing and play.

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to off-topic though. It would seem that the thread has been hijacked.

All I am saying is that if you went up to 100 people on the street and asked them if they heard of Van Halen 60% would have but only about maybe 15% know who Steve Vai is (which is a shame). This is increasingly difficult because younger generations may be less aware of these artists. I will have to find a copy of Eruptions sheet music. I read it in a book at my college's library about 4 years ago now discussing the classical elements in hard rock and heavy metal.

[SS316SRV]

The article is
"Eruptions: Heavy Metal Appropriations of Classical Virtuosity", by Robert Walser

http://books.google.com/books?id=YKP...hl=en#PPA57,M1

Most notably pages 71 and 72. Enjoy it is a good little read.

[Thegide]

Very interesting article... thanks for posting. Some comments:

"'Eruption' is one minute and twenty-seven seconds of exuberant and playful virtuosity, a violonist's precise and showy technique inflected by the vocal rhetoric of the blues and rock and roll irreverence"

"...although what follows is still mostly based in the A blues mode. Van Halen quickly moves through some Chuck Berry-inspired bends..."

- as I described.

"a quotation of the best-known cliche of violin pedagogy, an etude by Rodolphe Kreutzer" (pg. 69)

- referring to the trem picking section before the tapping section. perhaps this is what you were talking about, but given the overall blues/rock-based structure of the song, this phrase represents classical elements in a brief, basic, and disproportionate way that comes across as exotic in the song. in fact, i would suggest that most non-music scholars would not likely recognize this as classical. fair enough if you choose to agree or disagree with me here.

"... but it was the tapping that astonished guitarists and fans..." "...a few other guitarists had used tapping to a limited extent, nothing like this had ever been heard before and 'Eruption' spurred guitarists to hyperbole: [EVH] practically reinvented the art of electric guitar..." (pg. 70)

- a strong case in point as I also highlighted earlier. His significance as a guitar player was because he popularized two-handed tapping and was seen as an innovator of his time. In his early days, he used to perform the tapping sections facing away from the crowd to hide his technique. Naturally, this drove many other guitarists crazy because they couldn't figure out what he was doing.

Regarding the final two alternating tapped arpeggios:

"an abrupt move to B confirms E minor as the new tonic, and increasingly frantic alternation between them (reminiscent of Beethoven's use of similar patterns to increase tension before a final cadence)..."

- the author is quick to draw parallels between motives used by classical artists and somewhat similar motives used by "modern" guitar players in a variety of places. However, it is a misleading comparison; we're talking about basic compositional techniques which are tools for building tension. The effectiveness of these tools are explained through an understanding of tonal harmony. All music, including blues, rock, and metal (I'm talking roots here) are based on these same foundations [of tonal harmony], which were practically dogmatic in the classical era. For example, if a musician employs a common I-IV-V-I chord progression, does that make it neoclassical? Of course not... I would argue the tonal shifts, including the use of chromaticism, during the tapping section demonstrate this phrase as progressive or jazz-based.

So, that concludes my analysis, and is essentially the foundation of my argument. I don't hold a degree in music composition, just for the record. Feel free to hold whatever opinions you want, but I thought perhaps you might find this to be an enlightening perspective.

[hardcore_canadian]

I think they (Gh and Rock Band) are both Desperately over-rated. They're both the same thing, so when this drum set comes out, the games will be the exact same thing

[Thegide]

Most definitely. The two series seem to be having a pissing contest with one another.

[WickyWoo]

A truffle and a white mushroom are both fungi. One is much tastier though

I think a big difference comes in your musical background

[inuyashalover21]

I love harmonix but I love the GH3 series so I cant wait for this .

[bassbone57]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

A truffle and a white mushroom are both fungi. One is much tastier though

I think a big difference comes in your musical background

It so nice to hear other people that notice the difference and not just dwell on a name. To Harmonix, being a musician is KEY. To Activison/Neversoft....

well at least they have the franchise/name going for them.

-K

[Mxr5150]

Originally Posted by Thegide

Uh oh, here it comes. See now you've just mistaken your opinion for fact and now you'll have to endure the wrath of all the other opinionated musicians on this board, including myself.

On what criteria do you consider EVH to be the best [mainstream] player of the 80s? And moreover, why do you feel the need to restrict this ranking to mainstream music? In my opinion, EVH had nothing on players such as Paul Gilbert or Steve Vai, and many others, except for maybe a nasty drug habit. As far as technical ability goes, there were faster players, and more creative players... both harmonically and melodically speaking. Eddie's biggest "thing" was popularizing - not inventing - two handed tapping.

On the criteria that Eruption was popular because of it's classical elements - do you even know what you're talking about? It was popular because it was a couple minutes of guitar ******y, nothing more. I would suggest you listen to Yngwie Malmsteen's Rising Force if you need examples of classical playing in 80's rock/metal, because they certainly aren't part of Eruption. Perhaps blues or pentatonic licks is more what you were thinking?

Next, you've contradicted yourself claiming in the same post that Eddie was the best player, then changing your opinion to SRV being the best player. Again, I disagree. SRV was perhaps an exceedingly talented blues player, with more technical ability than other blues players of his time - but certainly not the best guitar player period.

I do agree with you, however, regarding the Dragonforce comment. Unfortunately, merely describing them as overrated, is about as underrated of a comment as I can think of. Herman and Sam are sloppy players who hide behind Digitech Whammy pedals among a panel of other mistake-covering effects to give the illusion that they can play faster than anyone has ever played. On top of that, their songwriting ability is mediocre at best - largely ripoffs of 80's power metal riffs with some monotonous scale-running for solos. On top of that their maturity level seems about on par with your average 8-year-old, so no, I don't quite care for them either.

How can you love Paul Gilbert and Malmsteen and bash EVH? You know that Eddie is a huge inspiration for PG right? If Euruption is guitar "******y" what do you call what they do? Don't get me wrong, Yngwie and Gilbert are two of my favorite players but if Eddie never came along, those guys would be a whole world of different in their composition and playing styles, even with respect to Richie Blackmore's influence on Malmsteen and his to Paul's.

[Marine Mike]

Did anyone notice any quality differences between the different systems for GH3 (PS3, Wii, XBOX)? I currently own the guitar for the Wii and don't really want to shell it out for the PS3, is it worth to make the switch?

[Thegide]

Originally Posted by Mxr5150

How can you love Paul Gilbert and Malmsteen and bash EVH? You know that Eddie is a huge inspiration for PG right? If Euruption is guitar "******y" what do you call what they do? Don't get me wrong, Yngwie and Gilbert are two of my favorite players but if Eddie never came along, those guys would be a whole world of different in their composition and playing styles, even with respect to Richie Blackmore's influence on Malmsteen and his to Paul's.

I wasn't trying to bash EVH, and you're absolutely right regarding his influence on other virtuoso players. The ******y comment wasn't intended to be negative, but a case in point that it's technical elements were the primary indicator of its popularity. Almost like a commercial for Eddie's trick bag.

[Thegide]

Originally Posted by Marine Mike

Did anyone notice any quality differences between the different systems for GH3 (PS3, Wii, XBOX)? I currently own the guitar for the Wii and don't really want to shell it out for the PS3, is it worth to make the switch?

Stay away from PS3 GH3 like the plague. HD graphics aren't worth sacrificing game-playability for. See: PS3 Les-Paul & wireless dongle issues.

[Mxr5150]

Originally Posted by Thegide

I wasn't trying to bash EVH, and you're absolutely right regarding his influence on other virtuoso players. The ******y comment wasn't intended to be negative, but a case in point that it's technical elements were the primary indicator of its popularity. Almost like a commercial for Eddie's trick bag.

Okay, I understand what you're saying better now.

[UKTruBlu]

OH it just gets better from METALLICA.......

http://www.metallica.com/index.asp?item=601007

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by UKTruBlu

OH it just gets better from METALLICA.......

http://www.metallica.com/index.asp?item=601007

Oh hell yea!

[Psx0005]

Originally Posted by Thegide

Most definitely. The two series seem to be having a pissing contest with one another.

Personally, seems to me that all RB is doing is improving on their previous game and giving current RB fans a way to still continue on with their original instruments in the new game. GHWT seems to be the one doing all the pissing with their obvious ripoff of RB's original idea, touting their "improved" instruments just to bash RB's, and trying to curry favors with just about every musical group out there to claim exclusiveness to their franchise. But hey, whatever. Planning to still pick up RB2 when the 360's timed exclusiveness drops off.