Belladonna of Sadness 4K UHD (1973)

[Enigmo_1]

Originally Posted by peppapigstan

was just curious, those are like the most grain-heavy stuff on BD I know, just wanted to gauge some observations
also Enigmo can be a troll sometimes but I mean some of the stuff they say is interesting, i'd still wouldn't 100% discount their arguments

awkward but i'm not on your side anymore lol

after refreshing myself on what the 4K cinderella remaster looked like, i'm understanding a bit more why these guys are a bit unhappy with discotek's 40% grain reductions



@justinDNRkiss are you man enough to explain why Discotek couldn't just leave SF2 as grainy as an actual GOOD grainy purist remaster like Cindrella?

You anime companies need to stop hating on grain. That SF2 UHD, which you guys did a 40% grain reduction on because "HDR requires grain management" looks way too scrubbed and waxy especially when put side by side near a good purist remaster like 4K Cinderella. I know David Mackenzie would say the same thing if he was here

[Brian81]

If talking grain not being visible on projected theatrical prints and how diffused they are, all I can say is that the softness of projected film and DNR on discs looks completely different. Projected is soft and slightly out of focus looking, not sharp but waxy like DNRed discs.

If people making discs want to use the projected film print argument as justification for DNRing presentations on the basis of not seeing the sharp grain in those, maybe they should actually aim for THAT and simply give a softer presentation that might eliminate some detail in the process rather than some sharp thing that looks like digital animation. If you want it to look like the cells, then do the grain removal but don't mess up the lines like Disney had a bad habit of. I think the line work in Space Adventure Cobra was ass.

Some DNRed titles that don't look that bad to me projected is that Tombs of the Undead (?) Jess Franco disc and hell, even VCI's Blood and Black Lace doesn't look that bad most of the time. Neither is animated.

[ajaystewart]

Everyone likes grain here. Some people just don't like unnatural sandpaper grain exaggerated by HDR or multigen copies Not the intended look.

Are the sandpaper grain gang the flat earthers of the video community? Feels that way with the nonsense they're spouting.

[PonyoBellanote]

Originally Posted by ajaystewart

Everyone likes grain here. Some people just don't like unnatural sandpaper grain exaggerated by HDR or multigen copies Not the intended look.

Are the sandpaper grain gang the flat earthers of the video community? Feels that way with the nonsense they're spouting.

Some of you guys are clinging too hard to the early UHD's with maximum grain augmented by the lightcannon HDRs that Sony used to do and believe that means HDR and grain are really incompatible. They're not, if they're grain managed. But grain managed doesn't mean ''wipe it completely.''

You can have HDR and grain together. Of course you *have* to handle the grain in some way, but I don't think people are ASKING to leave the grain completely intact as it was when scanned.

Grain management as it is it's fine, we get it. Some of us grain fetishists don't want the grain to be intact as it is on the raw negative or film scan, that'd look beyond ugly. Some of us are even FINE with digital grain if a restoration REALLY must DNR the hell out of a picture to make it good in 4K HDR.

[Geoff D]

But what if this *is* just the excuse they've been looking for to get rid of nasty grainses? I mean, it's not beyond the realms of possibility...

[ajaystewart]

Originally Posted by PonyoBellanote

Some of you guys are clinging too hard to the early UHD's with maximum grain augmented by the lightcannon HDRs that Sony used to do and believe that means HDR and grain are really incompatible. They're not, if they're grain managed. But grain managed doesn't mean ''wipe it completely.''

You can have HDR and grain together. Of course you *have* to handle the grain in some way, but I don't think people are ASKING to leave the grain completely intact as it was when scanned.

Grain management as it is it's fine, we get it. Some of us grain fetishists don't want the grain to be intact as it is on the raw negative or film scan, that'd look beyond ugly. Some of us are even FINE with digital grain if a restoration REALLY must DNR the hell out of a picture to make it good in 4K HDR.

You've wrapped back to around to agreeing with us!

The very subject of this thread - the Belladonna UHD - is NOT grain wiped. It's got an incredibly healthy layer of grain.

All that anyone has been trying to say from the get-go is that you will need grain management in some way if you're going to put together a solid HDR grade.

The army of weirdos marched in trying to claim otherwise, and that's just not true. Any expert worth a damn has explained this and they just keep arguing. I don't blame anyone for being facetious at this point.

This all started because some bozo with a 1080p plasma doesn't have eyes and everyone will see that this was a waste of time when the screenshots drop.

[peppapigstan]

Originally Posted by PonyoBellanote

Some of you guys are clinging too hard to the early UHD's with maximum grain augmented by the lightcannon HDRs that Sony used to do and believe that means HDR and grain are really incompatible. They're not, if they're grain managed. But grain managed doesn't mean ''wipe it completely.''

You can have HDR and grain together. Of course you *have* to handle the grain in some way, but I don't think people are ASKING to leave the grain completely intact as it was when scanned.

Grain management as it is it's fine, we get it. Some of us grain fetishists don't want the grain to be intact as it is on the raw negative or film scan, that'd look beyond ugly. Some of us are even FINE with digital grain if a restoration REALLY must DNR the hell out of a picture to make it good in 4K HDR.

Some of the responses here indicate otherwise, giving how the reactions turned out when there was an utterance of "DNR" and "grain management". Nevertheless, I do agree with you @ Ponyo!
If anything, I wouldn't say this UHD or SF2's would be an example of "wiping the grain completely" while demolishing the detail in process. Want to see an actual example? I already linked it but this is an UHD released in 2024 (and no Q-TEC did not do this, IMAGICA, the ones who lovingly restored Momotaro, was in charge of the restoration but the DNR was mandated by higher-ups): https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...95&postcount=2
The fact that the publishers deem this to be acceptable is disgusting but also not surprising.

[animeHDR]

Simply try watching the UHD BD version of HDR on a monitor or TV that I recommend. It could be Robot Carnival or Belladonna.

>When it comes to cell animation, it's a different story.
It depends on the workflow, but it's usually the same.
Even with film, changing to HDR does not add any new information, similar to digital SDR mastering.
Highlight and T-light areas are just light, and it's the colorist's job to determine the intensity of that light.

>Once the film has been scanned, the goal of color correction may be to bring the colors back closer to the cel image.
>The problem is making it bright enough.
HDR can do these tasks better, but it all depends on your workflow.

> If you want to maintain the detail and sharpness of the highlights outside of the cells,
If you want a wide daynamic range as SDR, then yes.
Even if it gets dark and the contrast decreases, if you value the amount of information.
HDR allows you to balance brightness and avoid saturation.

>However, there are problems with trying to maintain definitions.
>HDR will solve the problem
That is correct.
That's what I mean when I say that in SDR, expression comes at the cost of compromise.
With HDR, that compromise can be significantly reduced.
The only time you need to compromise on HDR is when you're dealing with colours and lights that exceed the standard's upper limit of 10000cd/m2 or rec.2020, but you don't need such strong light and high purity colours for actual viewing.
I think the Lightillusion article will be helpful in this regard.
https://lightillusion.com/what_is_hdr.html

[Enigmo_1]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But what if this *is* just the excuse they've been looking for to get rid of nasty grainses? I mean, it's not beyond the realms of possibility...

Honestly, Geoff, you've sold me on your theory that Discotek isn't doing this because of HDR... it's just been their agenda all along to get rid of grain and pretend that film was never a medium used in animation. I'm sure they're in cahoots with the BigDNR industry over in Japan.

I know I'm just repeating myself at this point by posting this but hopefully it'll drill it into Discotek's head that they aren't fooling us. We have eyes and can see how much they're scrubbing the grain away compared to ideal purist reference releases like the new Cinderella remaster:

[Show spoiler]

Justin says they did only "40%" reduction in SF2 but at this point I'm calling bs. This has clearly been fully scrubbed when seen side by side next to the grain-preserving, film-faithful 4K Cinderella remaster

Seriously, Discotek. Do better.

[PonyoBellanote]

Originally Posted by peppapigstan

Some of the responses here indicate otherwise, giving how the reactions turned out when there was an utterance of "DNR" and "grain management". Nevertheless, I do agree with you @ Ponyo!
If anything, I wouldn't say this UHD or SF2's would be an example of "wiping the grain completely" while demolishing the detail in process. Want to see an actual example? I already linked it but this is an UHD released in 2024 (and no Q-TEC did not do this, IMAGICA, the ones who lovingly restored Momotaro, was in charge of the restoration but the DNR was mandated by higher-ups): https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...95&postcount=2
The fact that the publishers deem this to be acceptable is disgusting but also not surprising.

Okay, but this guy has kind of got a point, though.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=56

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Enigmo_1

Honestly, Geoff, you've sold me on your theory that Discotek isn't doing this because of HDR... it's just been their agenda all along to get rid of grain and pretend that film was never a medium used in animation. I'm sure they're in cahoots with the BigDNR industry over in Japan.

I know I'm just repeating myself at this point by posting this but hopefully it'll drill it into Discotek's head that they aren't fooling us. We have eyes and can see how much they're scrubbing the grain away compared to ideal purist reference releases like the new Cinderella remaster:

[Show spoiler]

Justin says they did only "40%" reduction in SF2 but at this point I'm calling bs. This has clearly been fully scrubbed when seen side by side next to the grain-preserving, film-faithful 4K Cinderella remaster

Seriously, Discotek. Do better.

BigDNR has paid you all off! The ironical thing being that I can watch the UHD of Aliens without wanting to gouge my eyes out

[Sessame]

Originally Posted by ajaystewart

You've wrapped back to around to agreeing with us!

The very subject of this thread - the Belladonna UHD - is NOT grain wiped. It's got an incredibly healthy layer of grain.

All that anyone has been trying to say from the get-go is that you will need grain management in some way if you're going to put together a solid HDR grade.

The army of weirdos marched in trying to claim otherwise, and that's just not true. Any expert worth a damn has explained this and they just keep arguing. I don't blame anyone for being facetious at this point.

This all started because some bozo with a 1080p plasma doesn't have eyes and everyone will see that this was a waste of time when the screenshots drop.

You must have an impressive lack of self awareness to post this and call other people weirdos. It’s impressive. Keep going.

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Originally Posted by ajaystewart

You've wrapped back to around to agreeing with us!

The very subject of this thread - the Belladonna UHD - is NOT grain wiped. It's got an incredibly healthy layer of grain.

All that anyone has been trying to say from the get-go is that you will need grain management in some way if you're going to put together a solid HDR grade.

The army of weirdos marched in trying to claim otherwise, and that's just not true. Any expert worth a damn has explained this and they just keep arguing. I don't blame anyone for being facetious at this point.

This all started because some bozo with a 1080p plasma doesn't have eyes and everyone will see that this was a waste of time when the screenshots drop.

I have seen a sample of the UHD and it's equivalent BD, they're nowhere near the sandblast jobs that were The Castle of Cagliostro and Space Adventure Cobra (both of which were handled by rightsholder TMS Entertainment). Most animated titles (mainly JP animes) undergo some sort of noise reduction for several reasons, the main ones being to get closer to the look of the cels, part of advanced DRS tools used to repair damage, to make HDR gradings less harsh on the eyes, and (in some cases) to make compression easier and quicker for distribution services.


Compared to the prior BD and UK UHD, yes there is some denoising but I'm seeing a fine (kinda chunky) layer of grain on both. The Cineloucious BD is super noisy and blocky due to the "I" compression method used, while the UK SDR UHD (using the same 2015 restoration) has better compression and is super grainy, but due to the nature of the elements looks very thick and cloudy.

Some brief sections in that version look to come off an interneg and are super dense and dupey, while the new 4k HDR may be using a different source (textless OCN?) for those same areas as they appear razor sharp and have far more detail than the source used in the old restoration.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Some brief sections in that version look to come off an interneg and are super dense and dupey, while the new 4k HDR may be using a different source (textless OCN?) for those same areas as they appear razor sharp and have far more detail than the source used in the old restoration.

Last I checked there's only one restoration and it was done by Cinelicious. AnimeLTD did their own additional pass and HDR grade though, and Discotek has done their own. The OCN was cut and cut sections were sourced from an Italian print, which I believe is the only source of the cut footage. The encode on the other 4k is pretty lacking in its own way and those print sections probably look that way because of it. All of it blended together pretty well on the Cinelicious disc but its nasty compression was probably hiding anything perceivable. lol

[Logan Jones]

Originally Posted by Enigmo_1

awkward but i'm not on your side anymore lol

after refreshing myself on what the 4K cinderella remaster looked like, i'm understanding a bit more why these guys are a bit unhappy with discotek's 40% grain reductions



@justinDNRkiss are you man enough to explain why Discotek couldn't just leave SF2 as grainy as an actual GOOD grainy purist remaster like Cindrella?

You anime companies need to stop hating on grain. That SF2 UHD, which you guys did a 40% grain reduction on because "HDR requires grain management" looks way too scrubbed and waxy especially when put side by side near a good purist remaster like 4K Cinderella. I know David Mackenzie would say the same thing if he was here

Uh... The Cinderella UHD has been grain managed. That is definitely not the original grain field, as its not as coarse as dense as it should be. In fact, I'd say its similar to what Justin did to the Belladonna 4K master, likely for the same reasons!



This is hilarious. All you guys are complaining about DNR in animation when its the results are hardly destructive. In my personal opinion, DNR with animation is far more tolerable than with live-action movies. When done right, no detail has been lost.

But I get it. The organic texture of film is beautiful. I love it, but I understand why Justin and his team did it to Belladonna. So relax, the image is not compromised.

[CrashOveride95]

Originally Posted by Logan Jones

Uh... The Cinderella UHD has been grain managed. That is definitely not the original grain field, as its not as coarse as dense as it should be. In fact, I'd say its similar to what Justin did to the Belladonna 4K master, likely for the same reasons!

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, and that was the point he was trying to make ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[EddieLarkin]

Cinderella was brought up as an example of a change in attitude towards DNR. Whereas before the approach was to smooth out the image entirely, now the approach is retain the filmic look. But it would still be better if the grain had been left untouched entirely.

If you want to make your bogus arguments use Heavy Metal instead you cowards. Or better yet, Delta Space Mission or the other Deaf Crocodile releases, all encoded by Fidelity in Motion, all very grainy, none with any compression issues. It's a real shame FiM never got a chance to handle Belladonna.

[Mushi Minion]

I too enjoy lamenting about encodes I haven’t actually seen for myself.

[peppapigstan]

Originally Posted by EddieLarkin

Cinderella was brought up as an example of a change in attitude towards DNR. Whereas before the approach was to smooth out the image entirely, now the approach is retain the filmic look. But it would still be better if the grain had been left untouched entirely.

If you want to make your bogus arguments use Heavy Metal instead you cowards. Or better yet, Delta Space Mission or the other Deaf Crocodile releases, all encoded by Fidelity in Motion, all very grainy, none with any compression issues. It's a real shame FiM never got a chance to handle Belladonna.

I don't think the intent for Belladonna was to smooth out the image entirely either, it's clear they want to retain the filmic look as well. I don't know why people are acting like the whole image is scrubbed, anyone sane doesn't want that unless you're a distributor like VAP

[geekzapoppin]

I think we all need to take a deep breath and wait for more copies to be out "in the wild" before going off on Discotek. I've been largely very happy with Discotek's releases in the past. No label is perfect, but Discotek is one of the very few labels that is actively releasing classic Anime on disc. I'm not saying they're perfect as each release is going to be different and have different positive and negative elements. Right now, though, there's a bunch of back and forth between folks who haven't seen the disc in motion. What may look suspect in a screenshot will often look just fine in motion or it could look terrible. Screenshots are useful, but not infallible. I look forward to more opinions in the coming days from folks who have the disc in hand and have given it a watch. I should receive mine tomorrow and will be happy to share my thoughts. I hope others will, as well. If you're in this thread, it's almost certainly because you're a fan of classic Anime. We're all here for the same reason.