BD title production (NIN)

[Jazar]

Ganked from AVS. Good to know BD has the edge!

quote:
I'm a member on the Nine Inch Nails fan club and I found some interesting info posted there in the forum regarding the band's upcoming Beside You In Time concert release on all three formats: DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-ray disc. Having attended the concert several times as well as the 2000 tour (and owning the FANTASTIC ...and all that could have been DVD) I'm very excited about this release. Trent Reznor of NIN has always maintained consistent quality releases.

Regarding the "three formats" here's what Rob Sheridan (behind the scenes tech guy of NIN) has to say regarding the three releases:

To follow up on some of the DVD details from Trent's posts above:

- All three formats of the DVD will have the same video content. There will of course be differences in quality/resolution of the video/audio. There will also be some slight differences between the three which relate to technical limitations of each format. This is all very peripheral stuff, and we'll be laying out the exact, detailed technical differences between the three versions as they become clearer. If you're considering purchasing a high def player for this release, you should wait until we're able to see finished, manufactured versions of both the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, at which point we'll lay out the pros and cons of each, at least in terms of our release. The discs are still in the authoring phase, but as of right this moment it looks like the Blu-Ray version will have a slight edge over the HD-DVD in terms of quality and technical aspects. I also want to put together a detailed FAQ for those of you who might be considering upgrading to HD and are confused about all this (it is VERY confusing stuff), so hold tight on any major purchases for now.

- But to make it clear: the track listing and bonus content are exactly the same between the three formats.

- As for the technical hurdles Trent mentioned: There have, as always, been many. We chose to put this out in HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, both of which are very new and largely untested technologies. On the production end, people are still figuring out what they can even do with these formats, and there has been a great deal of testing and tweaking involved. The current challenge is unfortunately something that we faced with AATCHB as well, and that's the issue of encoding the video. Without getting too technical, video content on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray still needs to be compressed in much the same way video is compressed on standard DVD. The type of compression used is much better suited to movies, which have a lot of scenes of people talking, slow pans, still shots, and other imagery with relatively little movement. Our material is extremely unique in that it is very frenetic, with lots of motion and lots of aggressive strobe lights. Put simply, it is a huge challenge for video encoders, and it's the reason AATCHB had to be split onto two discs: At the time, we couldn't get high enough quality video to fit on one disc. Thankfully DVD codecs have improved since then and BYIT will fit on one disc, but we're still having a great deal of trouble perfecting the high-definition encode. Apparently the authoring facility has already put 200 man hours into encoding our feature, and it still has a long way to go before the quality is up to snuff. There is quite an art form to a good encode that I didn't really have an appreciation for prior to this experience. Adding to the challenge is that the codec they're currently using for HD is still under development. In the end we'll have a great-looking high def product, but it will take every byte of data available on the disc, and it may cost the sanity of a few video technicians.

- One other note: the main feature will be presented in full 1080p resolution. It was shot on extremely high quality professional video cameras - it's NOT upconverted and it's NOT HDV - so it looks pretty f*****g stunning at full resolution.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming FAQ section to know just what is different between these two releases. They are right though...to most these are untested technologies with a lot of changes happening...

You can view the trailers here at:

http://www.nin.com/current/index.html

go to 9.23.06 NINE INCH NAILS: BESIDE YOU IN TIME to view the trailer in 1080p, 720p, or 480p. You may need to click on it twice. It'll open up in a second window.

[hyperdine]

Can't wait. Trent puts so much time and effort into his releases, this is sure to be a crowd-pleaser. He's such a perfectionist, that I know he won't disappoint.

[Greenmatiz2]

I just got this title in from Amazon today, and I'm a little disappointed.

I don't fault the guys who mastered this (although I can see visible compression in the darkness at times, and when lights are flashing -- VERY difficult to compress for, I imagine). I do feel disappointed in the fact that this was such a "dark" setting in general. Yeah, I know... it sort of has to be to capture the style/feel of the artist we're talking about here, but still... so dark it almost made the disk seem useless to me as a Blu-ray title at times.

Anyway, I understand this was a lot of work to put together and do, and that is appreciated. I just wish there could have been more light on the band at times. I got sick of looking at sillouettes of bodies on stage. At the very least, some more audience close-ups and lights on singers would have been nice.

Also, no way for me to hear 5.1 audio. It's only 3 channel, given my receiver is only Dolby Digital 5.1, and DTS. Bummer. Guess I didn't take time to read.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

I'm glad you posted this. You made me go back and take another look at this concert. There could have been more lighting on the band members. I think the encode was near perfect.

Another thing I noticed was the bitrate! This VC-1 encode hits 50Mbps at least 3 or 4 times just on the first song alone, while the TrueHD track was around 5Mbps. Basically, this title went slightly beyond Blu-ray's specs. The max for Blu-ray is suppose to be 54Mbps, but this title reached 55Mbps at a couple or more points. How can this be?

This might be a question for paidgeek.

[Greenmatiz2]

As I watched it more today, I noticed several spots where the compression failed and pixelated. Now I see it everywhere throughout this title. I'm not so impressed with the compression quality, but at the same time, there is a TON of jumping and movement on the screen, coupled with those individual arrays of bright lights and flashing. Add that in a darkened setting, and ugh... VERY difficult piece to make right.

I was a TV producer for a CBS station for 8 years (previous life) editing on AVID Media Composers and effects with Adobe AE. I've done a ton of video compression for the web, myself. I can't think of a greater nightmare to compress for than this sort of situation. The part that bugged me was that this kind of stuff happened when the bitrate was quite low -- around 7.4 or so. I would say it's because of the software used not adapting and compensating to image changes correctly in and around flashes, and those darned light arrays. Fattening the bitrate can really help this.

Lots of individual points of lights like those light arrays (boards/backgrounds) are common in the Korean TV show backgrounds on HDTV here, and they always reek havoc with the image.

Take a look at the song, "Somewhat Damaged" under the additional content. The hanging light luvres (or whatever you call them) just trash the video. It looks like hell. Lots of angles and individual objects with edges are what cause pixelation when the rate isn't high enough (one thing, anyway). I kind of got the feeling that they didn't put the attention into the processing of the extra videos. The average bitrate should have been set much higher. Look around 1:24 in, as he's jumping up and down. Just gawd-awful. Do you suppose this was set at a certain bitrate for HD-DVD, but not fully to take advantage of Blu-ray disk size/capability? I wonder.

I can see lots of crap in the song "Closer" as well. I know what to look for, so the compression artifacts really stick out like sore thumb to me. Most probably wouldn't notice it. It's most prevalent during the drumming sequences, and when the guitarist is doing his solo and swinging his hair around (the pulsing red lights highlight the compression artifacts). Look for semi-transparent boxes which start out a few inches in diameter and become smaller as more action and flashing hits the screen. See the quick shots of the drummer at 28:06 and 30:00 (look at his sticks).

Another thing I always notice in such situations are the light blooms, like at 27:39 and 27:46 of "Closer." I can see the artifacts in the blooms, and how the light comes and goes in overlaying layers, as opposed to a nice clean bloom.

You really can't fault these guys for this, though... it was an incredibly difficult project to tackle in the early-going, and was surely a learning experience.

[Greenmatiz2]

One more thing... why am I not getting my rear channels out of this title: I can't get any rear speakers in either TrueHD or Dolby Digital. My 5 year-old Onkyo receiver can read the optical output, and should be getting full 5.1 out of it, at least, right?

I'm only getting the front 3 speakers (happens on the audio set-up as well).

My PS3 appears to be set up properly, as well.

[Josh]

The bitrate metter in PS3 isn't the most accurate, it just gives you an approx. value.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

I'm glad you posted this. You made me go back and take another look at this concert. There could have been more lighting on the band members. I think the encode was near perfect.

Another thing I noticed was the bitrate! This VC-1 encode hits 50Mbps at least 3 or 4 times just on the first song alone, while the TrueHD track was around 5Mbps. Basically, this title went slightly beyond Blu-ray's specs. The max for Blu-ray is suppose to be 54Mbps, but this title reached 55Mbps at a couple or more points. How can this be?

This might be a question for paidgeek.

Agreed with Josh - the Ps3 is not the best for bitrate...

The video limit is 40 Mbps iirc and the mux is hard limited at 48 Mbps (I believe that it is not possible to go beyond this with the way the streams are specified).

[Greenmatiz2]

Are you saying that the quality issues are due to the PS3 not putting out a high enough bitrate?

Wow, that's the first I've ever heard such a statement, and it could start a firestorm.

Then again, that's probably not what you said, and I'm misunderstanding you.

Maybe you just meant the meter's capability.

Some of the quality issues I'm seeing are from the shots switching quickly, and the bitrate not getting a chance to "catch up" to the scene before it moves on to the next, I'm guessing. The only way to avoid this is by improved processing programs, or raising the overall bitrate average (making for a larger file overall). Other issues are from the bitrate being set for a average that looks good in one scene, but when a major change takes place (like the hanging lights I was talking about) the bitrates aren't able to keep up with the introduction of all of the new information on the screen, along with movement, and the picture craps out.

[Ascended_Saiyan]

Greenmatiz2, NIN has a Dolby Digital stereo and TrueHD (5.1). When going through your optical cable while playing the TrueHD track, I believe this converts the track to 2 channels of PCM. Therefore, you should not be able to get 5.1 surround from a TrueHD track on that receiver (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Long story short, you need a new receiver. You might as well wait for the new Onkyo receiver with HDMI 1.3. It's right around the corner.

[Greenmatiz2]

Yeah, kinda what I figured... for now, I just put it in 5 channel stereo mode.

thanks.