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Old 04-06-2015, 04:13 PM   #141
cakefactory cakefactory is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
But is that from the same transfer as posted earlier? It looks of far lesser quality. If it is then I suppose it's possible that one of the transfers (almost certainly the older one) did not scan each frame uniformly.
It's from the newer VCI dvd (the 2 disc anamorphic one). I have a copy of the German one somewhere, I'll check that one out later.
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Old 04-06-2015, 04:46 PM   #142
EddieLarkin EddieLarkin is offline
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Thanks for confirming the AR Michael, I'll absolutely take Tim Lucas' word for it on such a matter. But I don't think anyone was really worried which was the right AR, but why instead the new transfer ended up with less information on all four sides compared to the older transfer, despite using a narrower ratio (which would typically give more information top and bottom)?

If we crop the Anolis DVD to 1.66:1 and compare to the Arrow BD (with pillar bars removed), you can see that we still have a lot more information on the older transfer:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/120606

I don't think it's going to affect anyone's enjoyment of the disc (certainly not mine) but it is curious. I wonder if James White and Tim Lucas can confirm how they reached this particular type of 1.66:1 framing (and consequently if they think the old transfer showed more than Bava would have intended), and if indeed the film was hard matted?

My theory would still be that indeed it does use too much area, going into the soundtrack on the left (were the most gain in information is), and thus allowing more on the top and bottom despite the wider ratio, much like Universal's Videodrome.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:10 PM   #143
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Alright, here's the Arrow compared to the German DVD (VCI is in spoiler):



[Show spoiler]


Sooo, apparently the VCI was cropped on all 4 sides despite being the same AR as the German disc. And the Arrow definitely has less picture than the German DVD here too.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:38 PM   #144
EddieLarkin EddieLarkin is offline
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Yes, though again by far the largest percentage of extra space is on the left, which suggests to me that it is unintended to be seen area reserved for the soundtrack.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:41 PM   #145
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Yeah, the new framing looks fine to me. In fact, it looks more balanced compositionally, the German DVD seems off-balance with too many flowers on the left. So yeah, I would definitely believe it was intended to be 1:66 even without Tim Lucas weighing in.
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Old 04-06-2015, 07:30 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefactory View Post
Alright, here's the Arrow compared to the German DVD (VCI is in spoiler):



[Show spoiler]


Sooo, apparently the VCI was cropped on all 4 sides despite being the same AR as the German disc. And the Arrow definitely has less picture than the German DVD here too.
Is that German DVD indeed 1.85:1? Just looking at the two. Considering the Arrow is 1.66:1, and the information lost on the top, right, and bottom, is insignificant, I don't see how there'd be so much on ONE SIDE if the ratio was the same. Guess I'll assume it is. It looks wider.


Either way, I'd been told many times before that this was a very colorful film, and that the DVDs were very wrong when it came to that. I preferred the old VCI to the newer VCI. It had more 'natural' colors (obviously wrong), but both looked bad and the newer VCI image being stretched was the greater evil.

I can't wait to receive this. If my order shipped this past Friday, I wonder how long it will take (on average) to arrive here in the U.S. I read that earlier orders shipped the prior Friday, so for those that had theirs shipped that day, I wonder how long it took. Hoping it will arrive by Wednesday, but I know that's way too optimistic. 5 days international isn't realistic.
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:05 PM   #147
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The Arrow grabs in this thread and elsewhere look more compositionally pleasing than their alternatives from Anolis or VCI. My take is that Tim Lucas' familiarity with Bava's complete filmography (along with the work of both Ubaldo Terzano and Bava himself as cinematographer) gave him an authoritative eye to suggest what the original compositions were aiming it. I can't see the point of bemoaning a fractional amount of image cropped on one side if including that cropped portion makes things look uglier and more unwieldy.

My only problem with this Arrow release (on its way to me as I type) will probably be that it doesn't include a big postcard reading 'COMING SOON - KILL BABY KILL' in the case.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:40 PM   #148
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I hope either Tim Lucas or James White will clarify how they chose the final framing within the 1.66 ratio. This will be the only way to explain rationally how the final picture for the restoration has been composed and validated.

Nothing at all against them particularly, but unfortunately for them, people like Vitali on Barry Lyndon have created precedents which now prevents some to just take their words for granted.

A simple explanation on what material they used to double check the final result will certainly be plenty enough to settle the matter.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:26 PM   #149
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The only valid way I know of to frame any film once you've decided on the AR is to apply the standard aperture size (unless there are specific instructions otherwise), which for 1.66:1 is 0.825" x 0.497" . Presumably this is what the restoration team did, though if they didn't it would be interesting to know their reasoning.

More importantly though is what happened to the old transfer. There is about 2% additional image on each side of a film print that does not get shown (0.864"), and then about another 10% on the left of the neg that is reserved for the soundtrack, plus about 2% on the right (0.980"). If the old transfer strays into these areas to gain more side information, it is wrong, and usage of this side information allows one to gain on the top and bottom as well despite a wider aspect ratio.

That's about the only explanation I can think of to explain this situation.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:45 PM   #150
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I viewd this recently and to say i was gobsmacked is an understatement. The transfer is simply stunning, colours, contrast, everything is just spot on IMO. The extras are to many to mention........but i recommend viewing Yellow.

Last edited by Mr Kite; 04-08-2015 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:39 PM   #151
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The caps from arrow look awesome. I seriously can't wait to have this disc.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:45 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tele1962 View Post
I viewd this recently and to say i was gobsmacked is an understatement. The transfer is simply stunning, colours, contrast, everything is just spot on IMO. The extras are to many to mention........but i recomend viewing Yellow.

That's great news because the dvd's looked like crap and there weren't many to choose from either.

I can't wait to see this on blu.

It's the kind of film that would really come alive in HD.
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Old 04-08-2015, 02:49 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malakaheso View Post
That's great news because the dvd's looked like crap and there weren't many to choose from either.

I can't wait to see this on blu.

It's the kind of film that would really come alive in HD.
The German DVD looked great (for a DVD)
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:18 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieLarkin View Post
The only valid way I know of to frame any film once you've decided on the AR is to apply the standard aperture size (unless there are specific instructions otherwise), which for 1.66:1 is 0.825" x 0.497" . Presumably this is what the restoration team did, though if they didn't it would be interesting to know their reasoning.

More importantly though is what happened to the old transfer. There is about 2% additional image on each side of a film print that does not get shown (0.864"), and then about another 10% on the left of the neg that is reserved for the soundtrack, plus about 2% on the right (0.980"). If the old transfer strays into these areas to gain more side information, it is wrong, and usage of this side information allows one to gain on the top and bottom as well despite a wider aspect ratio.

That's about the only explanation I can think of to explain this situation.
It looks indeed very correct, but I'm reading a bit everywhere people wondering how come there is so much more picture in the frame of the DVD. I understand them (usually, "more picture is better") and think it'd be a definitive statement to hear either from Tim or James to validate it has been done this way.
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:39 PM   #155
EddieLarkin EddieLarkin is offline
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Well if what I say is correct then there can only be two explanations: either the old transfer strays outside of the official framing area, or James White and Tim Lucas "zoomboxed" the new master. I think Michael explained well enough why the latter explanation doesn't really hold up.

It would be cool though to see a grab of a frame from the OCN (FA), to see where exactly both transfers took their framing.

Last edited by EddieLarkin; 04-08-2015 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:12 PM   #156
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I do not have the disc, so it may not be fair to comment but if they are working from the film negative why would arrow zoom box or however you describe it? How would this benefit anything?
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:21 PM   #157
EddieLarkin EddieLarkin is offline
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Exactly.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:28 PM   #158
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Here are several shots from different parts of the German DVD. Note that the black area on the left side of the screen differs between them. Sometimes it goes all the way to the left of the frame, other times there's quite a bit of black. The second screenshot in particular has got a lot of empty screen on the left there. EDIT: that entire scene has that same AR with the big missing area on the left side, it's not just that shot - all the shots with the claw to the face etc also have the big blank area to the left.

[Show spoiler]








Looks to me like they only had a "full" image on certain shots and a lot of the rest of the time whatever source the German print was using really just doesn't have anything in that "extra" area so the only options were to either do what the German disc was and have the changing borders between shots, or matte the whole thing down.

The top and bottom have a more subtle version of the same thing. Check these two - there's a black line across the top of the screen in the first one, and one across the bottom in the other. The bottom one is especially obvious because this line across the bottom isn't even straight - there's more picture "missing" on the right side than the left. Most of the movie, the picture extends all the way to the top and bottom.

[Show spoiler]


This certainly seems like a good explanation of why they'd crop off all four sides!

EDIT: Here's a really serious one, no way the top of this was intended to be seen:


Last edited by cakefactory; 04-08-2015 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:50 PM   #159
EddieLarkin EddieLarkin is offline
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Thanks cakefactory, that puts the matter to rest if you ask me. It can't be a coincidence that the master used on the German DVD has these sorts of issues. That Gloria logo isn't even centered because there is too much image on the left.

Last edited by EddieLarkin; 04-08-2015 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:05 PM   #160
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Good detective/frighteningly-obsessive work everyone!
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