Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

The DSL modem used in these parts is nailed to the other side of the pole.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

That is commonly believed, but it has been debunked. SSD's do not suffer from data retention issues when they are without power.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/9248/...data-retention

Uhm, have you even read the link? Even the manufacturer specs in the example say that retention is specified for only 1 year at 30 degrees. That is not an unlikely scenario for a backup drive.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Uhm, have you even read the link? Even the manufacturer specs in the example say that retention is specified for only 1 year at 30 degrees. That is not an unlikely scenario for a backup drive.

That is simply the specification necessary to meet the standards they created, not the actual result of real world testing. And it is 30 degrees Celsius (86 Fahrenheit)

"All in all, there is absolutely zero reason to worry about SSD data retention in typical client environment. Remember that the figures presented here are for a drive that has already passed its endurance rating, so for new drives the data retention is considerably higher, typically over ten years for MLC NAND based SSDs. If you buy a drive today and stash it away, the drive itself will become totally obsolete quicker than it will lose its data"

The above is a quote from the first article I linked to earlier:https://www.anandtech.com/show/9248/...data-retention

[Show spoiler]"Alvin Cox, the Seagate engineer who wrote the presentation that set the Internet abuzz, PCWorld was told we’re all just reading it wrong.

“People have misunderstood the data,” Smith said.

Cox agreed, saying there’s no reason to fret.

“I wouldn’t worry about [losing data],” Cox told PCWorld. “This all pertains to end of life. As a consumer, an SSD product or even a flash product is never going to get to the point where it’s temperature-dependent on retaining the data.”

"an SSD that isn’t worn out rarely experiences data errors. "

"Even a worn-out SSD would still go a year without data loss, according to the original presentation, and that’s while being stored at 87 degrees Fahreneit the entire time. "

"Smith and Cox said the intent of the original presentation was to illustrate a worst-case scenario."

All of the above quotes are from the second link I gave: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2925...after-all.html

"you absolutely do not have to rush back from vacation or hire someone to turn on your PC every few days to avoid losing the data on your SSD. "

"What the table warns is that data retention drops precipitously as ambient and/or operational temperatures rise above the norm. For instance, you could lose data after only a few weeks if your SSD is stored in Death Valley, during the summer, with no AC. The table ends at one week’s retention at 131 degrees."

"Several of the SSD vendors I talked to said they’d expect their consumer products to do better, as in several multiples better, than this chart would indicate."

These three quotes are from the third link: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2921...liability.html

"The scenario described is an absolute, worst case scenario where if you write to the SSD at low temperatures, then store it at high temperatures (which is completely backwards from the usual scenario) and if the SSD is very close to its end of life (which is harder than you think) then leave it unpowered...then you might lose data."

Jim Handy, an analyst who specializes in memory and SSD technology: ""I believe that the standard guarantee is five continuous years without power, and I would be good with that."

Quotes from my fourth link: https://www.itworld.com/article/2921...or-a-week.html

In general, it was not recommended to use any hard drives to archive data unless it was backed-up at least three ways.

And yes, I read all of the articles I linked to earlier.

[Vor4]

Do you think it makes sense for someone to go back to physical media even though that person has a huge collection of iTunes movies?

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Do you think it makes sense for someone to go back to physical media even though that person has a huge collection of iTunes movies?

Why not both? I use both. Physical is for something I know I'm going to watch more than once. Because I'm at a point in my life where I can't keep rebuying the same movie (or show) over and over again. Digital I use the same way and on movies I only watch every so often. Much like Amazon and Netflix.

[Vor4]

I went to Best Buy today and they don't have any physical media anymore except for video game section that is shrinking. I asked one of the sales associates there and he told me no one buys physical media anymore and that they shipped back the movies to the vendors yesterday evening. He said by the end of this week, they'll ship back all the 4k UHD Blu-ray players, blu-ray players, and dvd players. The same thing is happening at Walmart and Target.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Do you think it makes sense for someone to go back to physical media even though that person has a huge collection of iTunes movies?

Depends.

1. You have slow/limited/no internet, and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. The iTunes movies will probably be of little use to you.

2. You don't plan on investing in any more Apple hardware, including, but not limited to, the Apple TV.

If none of the above is not the case, then no, I do not see a reason to re-invest hundreds (thousands?) in movies you already have on iTunes. I suppose there could be other reasons (you got a sick new HT set-up and you want to max that baby out using the highest quality version out there, which is disc), but you ultimately have to do a comprehensive cost vs. benefit analysis to see if it makes sense for you.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

And it is 30 degrees Celsius (86 Fahrenheit)

Obviously. That is not an unusual temperature where I live.

"All in all, there is absolutely zero reason to worry about SSD data retention in typical client environment. Remember that the figures presented here are for a drive that has already passed its endurance rating, so for new drives the data retention is considerably higher, typically over ten years for MLC NAND based SSDs. If you buy a drive today and stash it away, the drive itself will become totally obsolete quicker than it will lose its data"

What you left out is this: "All in all, there is absolutely zero reason to worry about SSD data retention in typical client environment." I believe this refers to a pattern where the SSD is frequently powered up, not an external backup or archival drive that may go months or years without being connected to power, which is the topic here.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Why not both? I use both.

I concur. Why does it have to be one or the other exclusively? My rule of thumb: If it's a top favorite of mine that depends heavily on visuals, or a movie I want to own in 3D, I buy the disc (unfortunately the latter becomes increasingly rare since at least in the US 3D releases seem to be becoming an endangered species). Otherwise I get the iTunes release. However, with the continued improvements in quality of the digital releases, I may give up on discs at some point. My disc purchases are already way down compared to a few years ago (I don't want my home to look like a Blockbuster store).

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Do you think it makes sense for someone to go back to physical media even though that person has a huge collection of iTunes movies?

You should use both its cheaper and since almost all movies come with digital copies and blu ray discs you get the quality and convenience at the same time.

Basically it never made sense to buy directly from iTunes (in general its more expensive) so buying physical media with a digital copy will get you a bigger iTunes collection and you will get all the perks of a physical collection 2.

Originally Posted by Vor4

I went to Best Buy today and they don't have any physical media anymore except for video game section that is shrinking. I asked one of the sales associates there and he told me no one buys physical media anymore and that they shipped back the movies to the vendors yesterday evening. He said by the end of this week, they'll ship back all the 4k UHD Blu-ray players, blu-ray players, and dvd players. The same thing is happening at Walmart and Target.

Interesting I honestly don't get what best buy plans to sell though. Are they hoping people will remember them once every 5 years when its time for a new tv or dishwasher. Without physical media it just seems like bestbuy wont have anything to get people into their stores on even a semi regular basis. I feel like radio shack did a similar thing and we all know how that turned out.

Like what do people buy at best buy? Everything I can think of are one offs or physical media.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by veritas

Interesting I honestly don't get what best buy plans to sell though. Are they hoping people will remember them once every 5 years when its time for a new tv or dishwasher. Without physical media it just seems like bestbuy wont have anything to get people into their stores on even a semi regular basis. I feel like radio shack did a similar thing and we all know how that turned out.

Like what do people buy at best buy? Everything I can think of are one offs or physical media.

I'd imagine physical media is a very small portion of their overall revenue. Best Buy is an electronics store that sells media as a courtesy, not because it makes them a lot of money, although it was probably a source of profit years ago.

Best Buy's main focus is to not be a showroom for Amazon, which is why they started price-matching them a while back. Physical media is a low-risk on-line purchase. I don't have to "feel" or "look at" a BD/DVD/CD before I buy it. If I want to buy a TV, I want to check it out in person. If they are going to price match Amazon, also factoring in the fact I have to pay tax to Amazon as well, I may as well buy it at BB and take it home right then and there instead of waiting a couple of days for it to come in.

[The_Donster]

^^Well not to take this thread off course more than it already is veritas, but I have to agree with you. Best Buys appliance, mobile and A/V sales can't be that great that they can cut out one of their key demographics. My feeling is everyone is gearing up for the Black Friday/Holiday Madness. Which is why we're seeing a shift. I take whatever an associate says with a grain of salt. I mean, I ask someone where the steelbook was of Spider-Man: Homecoming was and he tried to tell me it wasn't out yet. I then ask, what about that shipper over there? He told me that it was probably just up to promote the movie before it hits stores. When we went and looked he then told me that if it was empty there they must be sold out. I found it up in the new releases, but my son liked the Target digibook (I agreed) better. So I spoke with the person before I left about the crappy customer service and left empty handed.

[randian]

Originally Posted by Vor4

I went to Best Buy today and they don't have any physical media anymore except for video game section that is shrinking. I asked one of the sales associates there and he told me no one buys physical media anymore and that they shipped back the movies to the vendors yesterday evening.

Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it? You think nobody is buying, so you shrink your selection, which causes physical media buyers to not frequent your store because of your terrible selection. Cue death spiral.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Obviously. That is not an unusual temperature where I live.
What you left out is this: "All in all, there is absolutely zero reason to worry about SSD data retention in typical client environment." I believe this refers to a pattern where the SSD is frequently powered up, not an external backup or archival drive that may go months or years without being connected to power, which is the topic here.

Again, the quote reads:

"All in all, there is absolutely zero reason to worry about SSD data retention in typical client environment. Remember that the figures presented here are for a drive that has already passed its endurance rating, so for new drives the data retention is considerably higher, typically over ten years for MLC NAND based SSDs. If you buy a drive today and stash it away, the drive itself will become totally obsolete quicker than it will lose its data"

Stashed away means without power; that should be obvious. The entire point of the table is to show data retention expectations for a SSD near the end of its life without power at a given temperature.

Endurance rating refers to the amount of data that has been written to the SSD drive over its lifetime. The table refers to SSD drives that have had upwards of 700 TB to as much as 1 petabyte of data written to them over their lifetime. This is what is meant by "passed its endurance rating." Average consumers will never write this amount of data to their SSD drive.

That quote is from the engineer who wrote the study and made the table being referenced.

And there is the quote as well from the fourth article I linked to:

"Jim Handy, an analyst who specializes in memory and SSD technology: "I believe that the standard guarantee is five continuous years without power, and I would be good with that."

and another quote from the engineer who wrote the study in the first place and created the table referenced:

“I wouldn’t worry about [losing data],” Cox told PCWorld. “This all pertains to end of life. As a consumer, an SSD product or even a flash product is never going to get to the point where it’s temperature-dependent on retaining the data.”

The table shows data retention periods before data loss will occur for SSD drives at the end of their life while being subjected to various temperatures and while being left unpowered for that entire period.

and:

"The scenario described is an absolute, worst case scenario where if you write to the SSD at low temperatures, then store it at high temperatures (which is completely backwards from the usual scenario) and if the SSD is very close to its end of life (which is harder than you think) then leave it unpowered...then you might lose data."

I provided links to four articles across three websites that explain this clearly to anyone who reads it completely. Unpowered SSD drives do not lose data unless extreme conditions exist. These conditions are drives that are already at their end of life from having endured extreme commercial writing cycles totaling up to the petabyte level AND having been stored at high temperatures AND being left unpowered the entire time.

I also know this from first hand experience having stored my SSD drives for 8 months unpowered without losing any data and I have been told that SSD drives do not lose their data when left unpowered in a normal consumer environment directly by a software engineer and CIO. I know that my testimonial within this paragraph is anecdotal, but in conjunction with the articles I linked to, it is more than enough proof and experience to satisfy me.

Anyone with a search engine can also research this for themselves if the four links I originally provided are not convincing enough.

Incidentally, who here would download movies to any hard drive and then go a year or more without ever using that drive? Losing data after one year is an estimation for a worn out SSD left unpowered at 86 degrees F for the entire time- not a typical environment at all.

Thanks for tolerating two lengthy posts about SSD drives. I will not derail this thread any further regarding them.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vor4

I went to Best Buy today and they don't have any physical media anymore except for video game section that is shrinking. I asked one of the sales associates there and he told me no one buys physical media anymore and that they shipped back the movies to the vendors yesterday evening. He said by the end of this week, they'll ship back all the 4k UHD Blu-ray players, blu-ray players, and dvd players. The same thing is happening at Walmart and Target.

Good job a shit load of people still buy online isn’t it? 4K is doing well and Blu-ray is still up for this year by a small percent. Not bad for a media ‘no one is buying’.

Seriously, do you believe what every sales person tells you? A sales person once told me Amstrad was one of the very best makes of electrical items years back!

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1505110408

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Vor4

I went to Best Buy today and they don't have any physical media anymore except for video game section that is shrinking. I asked one of the sales associates there and he told me no one buys physical media anymore and that they shipped back the movies to the vendors yesterday evening. He said by the end of this week, they'll ship back all the 4k UHD Blu-ray players, blu-ray players, and dvd players. The same thing is happening at Walmart and Target.

This would be a terrible business decision with Hollywood already in a death spiral. I am not seeing this in Houston stores.

If they force me into a digital only option, they better be prepared to never charge more than $5 per movie and finally get the digital locker crap figured out. MA just added another ring to the circus.

*

*

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Incidentally, who here would download movies to any hard drive and then go a year or more without ever using that drive?

I do. As an example, after HD-DVD had gone under, I ripped all my discs and stored them on two 1TB drives. That must have been around 2008/2009. The drives are still fine today (I recently used them when I re-encoded the movies in an iTunes-friendly format). I wouldn't trust any SSD nearly as long. People think they are more reliable because they are solid state and that is true in many ways, but they have their own problems.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Vor4

I went to Best Buy today and they don't have any physical media anymore except for video game section that is shrinking. I asked one of the sales associates there and he told me no one buys physical media anymore and that they shipped back the movies to the vendors yesterday evening. He said by the end of this week, they'll ship back all the 4k UHD Blu-ray players, blu-ray players, and dvd players. The same thing is happening at Walmart and Target.

Go back to the Best Buy, ask a manager about it, record his answer (video or audio would work), and post it for all to hear. I’ll believe it when I see it or hear it myself.

What Best Buy location was that anyhow?

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Incidentally, who here would download movies to any hard drive and then go a year or more without ever using that drive? Losing data after one year is an estimation for a worn out SSD left unpowered at 86 degrees F for the entire time- not a typical environment at all.
.

I actually could end up doing that rather easily. I mean why would you access your backup when your main copy is still around. I mostly just keep my external harddrive in storage unplugged till I rebackup files again or need a file from the hard drive.

[dublinbluray108]

WB are to release Scooby Doo! & Batman: Brave & The Bold on DVD & Digital release in January 2018. Surprisingly; No Blu-ray release is included which left me disappointed. It's surprising because Batman Brave & The Bold have some seasons of the TV show released on Blu-ray in the US.

And this release gets left out? I am confused as to why this should now be the norm for a great title like this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBrPQYTuvMI

https://batman-news.com/2017/10/30/s...-this-january/