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Old 06-04-2018, 09:39 PM   #881
Pyoko Pyoko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchg View Post
so it's confirmed batman begins on UHD looks like shit regardless of how nice you're TV is?
Nah, it's confirmed that the DNR'd shots look like shit regardless. The rest looks great on my set. It's Batman not Boyhood, there's no call for it to be shackled by naturalistic and flat colors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slask View Post
wait, what..? Where's the DNR in the sequels' UHD..??
On TDK it's everywhere, even on the IMAX shots. It doesn't look anything as bad as BB but the grain is almost always trailing or smearing slightly. The rest of the Nolans also have this light DNR but on random shots throughout.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:22 PM   #882
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Baby Driver

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/114888

BD (upscaled) left, UHD-BD (madVR/SDR/200 nits) right

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim:
[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the color bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colors (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark (which is by design when the caps are done at 200 nits), may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=589




























#3 600 nits




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Old 06-06-2018, 11:31 PM   #883
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How about some Screenshots of UHD 4K Streaming. I think this would be a good comparison since Bitrates have been going up for some Streaming Providers trying to match Disc Quality.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:16 PM   #884
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Annihilation

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/114955
EDIT: Just noticed that I forgot cap#8: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/114956

BD (upscaled) left, UHD-BD (madVR/SDR/200 nits) right

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim:
[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the color bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colors (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark (which is by design when the caps are done at 200 nits), may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=589




#3 1000 nits


#3 2000 nits


#3 1000 nits








#3 1000 nits




#3 1000 nits


#3 1000 nits


#3 1000 nits












#3 <=1000 nits (forgot to note the setting in the file name and didn't bother to revisit...)






#3 1000 nits






#3 100 nits, #4 1000 nits






#3 1000 nits




#3 2000 nits



Last edited by andreasy969; 06-07-2018 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:59 PM   #885
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Nice, verry nice.

I'd love some comparisons of The Town and Argo.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:25 PM   #886
andreasy969 andreasy969 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsetSmiley View Post
Nice, verry nice.
Yes, it is indeed. I still think it's a typical case of the BD looking worse than it could (I see no reason for the extremely blown out highlights).

Quote:
I'd love some comparisons of The Town and Argo.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=94 (didn't upscale back then and "view image" is your friend though)

I don't own "The Town". Mainly because I prefer the "Ultimate Cut" (or however it's called) which as far as I know also happens to be kind of the DC. I've also seen a comparison of "The Town" and it didn't blow me away detail wise at any rate (the comparison is lost though - it was @screenshotcomparison iirc).
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:14 PM   #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasy969 View Post
Yes, it is indeed. I still think it's a typical case of the BD looking worse than it could (I see no reason for the extremely blown out highlights).



https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=94 (didn't upscale back then and "view image" is your friend though)

I don't own "The Town". Mainly because I prefer the "Ultimate Cut" (or however it's called) which as far as I know also happens to be kind of the DC. I've also seen a comparison of "The Town" and it didn't blow me away detail wise at any rate (the comparison is lost though - it was @screenshotcomparison iirc).
Thank you! I was going to suggest the other Ben Affleck outing 'The Accountant' in 4K, but looking at its dedicated thread and mainly Geoff's verdict, I think I've read enough about that one and I'm sure you have too.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:15 PM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasy969 View Post
Yes, it is indeed. I still think it's a typical case of the BD looking worse than it could (I see no reason for the extremely blown out highlights).
Shame that they crushed the SHIT out of the blacks though for the HDR grade. What it giveth, it also taketh away. And if you think those SDR highlights are bad you shoulda seen the initial Netflix SDR stream, it made the regular Blu-ray look like Dolby Vision.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:29 PM   #889
andreasy969 andreasy969 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsetSmiley View Post
Thank you! I was going to suggest the other Ben Affleck outing 'The Accountant' in 4K, but looking at its dedicated thread and mainly Geoff's verdict, I think I've read enough about that one and I'm sure you have too.
Not interested in the movie, but you've got that right: I just checked and certainly wouldn't upgrade that one. (guess I'd still buy it on UHD if I was interested in the movie though - just because)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Shame that they crushed the SHIT out of the blacks though for the HDR grade. What it giveth, it also taketh away. And if you think those SDR highlights are bad you shoulda seen the initial Netflix SDR stream, it made the regular Blu-ray look like Dolby Vision.
Let's say it gives a lot and takes a little. I'm also not that allergic to a little black crush (it can actually help a little with the black levels of front projection, which are far from TVs' let alone OLEDs').

reg. Netflix SDR highlights: Didn't see it, but .
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:11 AM   #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasy969 View Post
Let's say it gives a lot and takes a little. I'm also not that allergic to a little black crush (it can actually help a little with the black levels of front projection, which are far from TVs' let alone OLEDs').

reg. Netflix SDR highlights: Didn't see it, but .
Do you have a recent mid/high level JVC projector? RS 540 or 640? If not, you haven't seen the best black levels a projector can have. Not OLED, but pretty close with a bat cave room.
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:03 AM   #891
andreasy969 andreasy969 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan21 View Post
Do you have a recent mid/high level JVC projector? RS 540 or 640? If not, you haven't seen the best black levels a projector can have. Not OLED, but pretty close with a bat cave room.
No, I still have a Sony VPL-HW10 SXRD projector and as it stands today I will be buying a Sony again next year (due to Sony still being the only native 4K option), but I am waiting until I can get one of their native 4K projectors new for 3000 € - because I'm just not willing to spend more money on a projector (EDIT: should Sony drop the prices again later this year, it might be even this year).

I'm well aware of the fact that black levels have improved (and that Sony is not king), but so have TVs. I'm also not kidding myself and while projector's pq is great (still love the image of my Sony to bits), it will always stay behind the pq of TVs when it comes to black levels for ex (and today I measure it against OLED of course). I'm watching on a relatively small 82" 16:9 frame canvas (still larger than most TVs) with a "witdh:eye distance"-ratio of 1:1,5 which I love and which gives me a very good compromise between projector screen size and TV pq though.

Anyway, I tend to buy my stuff rather expensive, long term and "smart" (so I think ), but I don't upgrade my stuff all the time like other people do and native 4K HDR front projection is not ready for me yet (overpriced and it'd be at least 1000 € out of the window (hopefully) soon). Soon though. Soon.

Last edited by andreasy969; 06-08-2018 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:40 PM   #892
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Darkest Hour

I do have some time to spare this week.

There are two comments below, other than that no further comments required.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/115004

BD (upscaled) left, UHD-BD (madVR/SDR/200 nits) right

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim:
[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the color bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colors (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark (which is by design when the caps are done at 200 nits), may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=589












#3 1000 nits










#3 1000 nits












#3 1000 nits




different framing and vignetting on the UHD:




#3 1000 nits and DNR on the UHD - just sayin'






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Old 06-08-2018, 03:59 PM   #893
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Holy mother of God, I can't wait to pick up 'Darkest Hour'!

That looks exactly what HDR was made for. It's not even that the SDR version looks awful--it's just that based on those caps, the HDR grade makes use of the medium in a way that it was intended for. There's so much fine detail retained in the highlight and shadow detail in the UHD version, but not in the sense that it looks like a radically different film from the standard blu-ray.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:04 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasy969 View Post
Let's say it gives a lot and takes a little. I'm also not that allergic to a little black crush (it can actually help a little with the black levels of front projection, which are far from TVs' let alone OLEDs').

reg. Netflix SDR highlights: Didn't see it, but .
Agreed.

I love Geoff's posts. I've learned a lot about the technical vernacular surrounding a lot of this stuff from him, in such a short span of time, and it's always appreciated.

However, and I mean this constructively, Geoff; but I think you're being a little too nit-picky in regard to the 'black crush' in 'Annihilation.' It's really hard for me to see it. You'd think in a sequence like when Oscar Isaac's character is being transported in the ambulance, detail would be crushed to death, but it's still there. Whatever visual information is being lost, is more than made up for by the overwhelming difference in highlight information in the UHD compared to the blu-ray.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:36 PM   #895
chip75 chip75 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Shame that they crushed the SHIT out of the blacks though for the HDR grade. What it giveth, it also taketh away. And if you think those SDR highlights are bad you shoulda seen the initial Netflix SDR stream, it made the regular Blu-ray look like Dolby Vision.
I'm not sure what's up with some of Netflix's content, Star Trek: Discovery looked fine in SDR, it has a nice dynamic range but A Series of Unfortunate Events looks like a HDR to SDR conversion (like andreasy969's 1000 nits HDR to SDR captures), it's not quite right.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:01 PM   #896
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Those Darkest Hour screenshot does confirm my thoughts on being a 4K DI. Even both downscaled to 1080p, I still see higher resolution back.

Last edited by Pieter V; 06-08-2018 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:05 PM   #897
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan View Post
Agreed.

I love Geoff's posts. I've learned a lot about the technical vernacular surrounding a lot of this stuff from him, in such a short span of time, and it's always appreciated.

However, and I mean this constructively, Geoff; but I think you're being a little too nit-picky in regard to the 'black crush' in 'Annihilation.' It's really hard for me to see it. You'd think in a sequence like when Oscar Isaac's character is being transported in the ambulance, detail would be crushed to death, but it's still there. Whatever visual information is being lost, is more than made up for by the overwhelming difference in highlight information in the UHD compared to the blu-ray.
Different strokes for different folks, I'm so sensitive to black crush that I twigged it on Annihilation and Black Panther (and Straight Outta Compton) without even comparing to the SDR disc or seeing the caps, and bearing in mind that we've got different displays with different handling of black and peak/average brightness too then I think the latter is what makes the utter void in the blacks on this movie stand out so much, at least when using the Sony tone mapping. I can't wait to see what DV does to those two.

But it's not bringing down black level itself that I mind as an aesthetic choice (if that's all it is here, though I have my doubts), it's that all too often lately it comes at the expense of a bunch of artefacts like that black speckling and/or posterisation and/or a ruddy orange tint to blacks, all of which marks it out as crushing straight away to my oh-so-keen eyes, there's just no finesse to it.

The point with Annihilation is that the black level is so lightweight already (we know that Rob Hardy generally doesn't do excessively contrasty images) that the blanket UHD crush doesn't remove everything, it's not like each scene has exactly the same amount of shadow detail removed because each scene doesn't have the same level of shadow detail. But it's that lack of nuance which catches my eye, with the corners of medium-brightness images falling away to total black like some awful vignetting effect, and while brighter scenes don't appear to suffer for it (becuz Everybody Loves Contrasty Raymond) the darkest spots suffer BIG time like the scene when they're tied to the chairs, **** me that's awful.

As with a lot of things I've been accused of being too nit-picky about, you fine people don't have to see it for it to be there - and it most assuredly is in this case - but that's what Geoffy Vision is about: He Sees It So You Don't Have To™
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:22 PM   #898
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Different strokes, indeed, my friend. Black crush to you = Aliasing to me. I notice black crush, but if done mildly (relatively) then I don't inherently mind as much. Aliasing, though? The instant I see it I go, "WHAT IS THAT?!?!" /pause the movie, rewind, rewatch, pause, move closer the screen, shake my head, come on the forum, b*tch about it, continue the movie, come back to the forum and b*tch about it more.

*edit* strange filters this forum has. You can say shit, but you can't say b*tch. lol
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:35 PM   #899
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Yes, we all have our crosses to bear.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:04 PM   #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
Yes, we all have our crosses to bear.
Does Geoffy Vision cause grey bars also?
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