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Old 09-09-2019, 06:42 AM   #17641
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
You're absolutely right there are no hard guidelines or hardware requirements. Streaming has very low standards for good reasons so most people can expect good enough quality. I say with the right Codec and Adaptive Streaming that high Quality can be achieved. I'm sure Providers like Disney+ will push these limits to the max, and raise the bar for all Streaming Providers. Symmetrical Speeds are probably not needed, but good upload will make for a better Streaming experience. Also Latency where Hardwire comes into play will prove to be Vidal in this Quality Streaming!
Of course there are guidelines and hardware requirements; each streaming provider and device manufacturer publishes their own. It's pretty easy to look them up, too.

Which devices will support which apps has more to do with business negotiations between the parties involved than it does with any technical limitations with the devices themselves.

Why would streaming providers invest more to improve their streaming quality when most of their customers, like you for example, already think that streaming looks "fantastic?" There is no need for them to expend any effort to satisfy the already satisfied. You really think that Disney plans to revolutionize streaming quality for their asking price of $7 per month?

Adaptive streaming will never provide you with a higher bitrate than the maximum that a streaming provider offers. With Netflix, that maximum is just 16 Mbps and adaptive streaming does not change that fact, symmetrical internet does not change that fact, and a wired network won't change that fact. Adaptive streaming alters the transmitted bitrate from the streaming provider to the consumer to accommodate fluctuating and often deteriorating internet connections; it will never give you more than the streaming provider's maximum bitrate.

The upload speed requirements for streaming are trivial and this has been exhaustively explained to you previously, but clearly in vain. Virtually any internet connection readily and easily exceeds the upload speed requirements for streaming many times over. This upload speed requirement is so minuscule that no streaming provider even specifies one in their requirements. The necessary upload speed for streaming is measured in mere Kbps; increasing my upload speed to 130 Mbps, thereby matching my download speed, is not going to improve my streaming performance. It would just be overkill.

You persist with this nonsense that a wired network is superior to a wireless network for streaming and that has also been disproved countless times, but you obstinately refuse to accept it. Latency is mostly important for video gaming and most wireless networks handle that just fine, too. Not a single streaming provider lists a latency requirement.

A wireless network works just as well for streaming as does a wired one. Not one streaming provider recommends one over the other. Any modern home network with broadband internet service can easily handle the paltry 16 Mbps bitrates offered by most streaming providers. Even an ancient G rated router can easily handle bitrates that pathetic. Speed test results over either network connection easily exceed the streaming recommendations published by all streaming providers.

People would not use wireless networks to stream videos if they performed poorly. I use both wired and wireless networks and I get the same results with both and this has been confirmed by objective speed test results performed over both network connections. I am rather picky about such things and I would NEVER tolerate the use of a wireless network if it delivered unreliable or worse results. Why the hell would I? Why would anyone?

Professional reviewers have often evaluated streaming performance over wireless networks because the results are the same as with a wired network; no professional reviewer would use a subpar network connection to evaluate an internet dependent service such as streaming.

In summary:

Not one streaming provider recommends symmetrical internet.
Not one streaming provider recommends a wired network connection over a wireless one.
Not one streaming provider specifies any upload speed requirement.
Not one streaming provider specifies any latency requirement.

^The imaginary need for all four of these are entirely made up by you. You do not know more than the streaming providers themselves, so stop pretending that you do.

Last edited by Vilya; 09-09-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:22 AM   #17642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
I'm sure Providers like Disney+ will push these limits to the max, and raise the bar for all Streaming Providers.
HEVC, H.264 and VP9 are what devices support (HEVC and VP9 isn't even as widely supported) so that's what providers need to use. Customers actually need to be able to watch the content they're paying subscription for.

Unless we all get gigabit speed internet with no data caps standard, there's only so much providers can do given practical bitrate limitations.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:35 AM   #17643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rui no onna View Post
HEVC, H.264 and VP9 are what devices support (HEVC and VP9 isn't even as widely supported) so that's what providers need to use. Customers actually need to be able to watch the content they're paying subscription for.

Unless we all get gigabit speed internet with no data caps standard, there's only so much providers can do given practical bitrate limitations.
The streaming providers don't need to improve anything because their customers are mostly content with what they get now.

Improvements cost money and neither provider nor customer seem interested in spending anymore than they have to; streaming customers prefer cheap and convenient and that's what the providers deliver.
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:20 AM   #17644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
You're absolutely right there are no hard guidelines or hardware requirements. Streaming has very low standards for good reasons so most people can expect good enough quality. I say with the right Codec and Adaptive Streaming that high Quality can be achieved. I'm sure Providers like Disney+ will push these limits to the max, and raise the bar for all Streaming Providers. Symmetrical Speeds are probably not needed, but good upload will make for a better Streaming experience. Also Latency where Hardwire comes into play will prove to be Vidal in this Quality Streaming!
What are you talking about? There is no upload speed required for streaming. Streaming only requires download speed. The upload speed can be as slow as a snail and it won’t make any difference. You’ve been imagining things over and over again.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:12 AM   #17645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
Of course there are guidelines and hardware requirements; each streaming provider and device manufacturer publishes their own. It's pretty easy to look them up, too.

People would not use wireless networks to stream videos if they performed poorly. I use both wired and wireless networks and I get the same results with both and this has been confirmed by objective speed test results performed over both network connections. I am rather picky about such things and I would NEVER tolerate the use of a wireless network if it delivered unreliable or worse results. Why the hell would I? Why would anyone?

Professional reviewers have often evaluated streaming performance over wireless networks because the results are the same as with a wired network; no professional reviewer would use a subpar network connection to evaluate an internet dependent service such as streaming.

In summary:

Not one streaming provider recommends symmetrical internet.
Not one streaming provider recommends a wired network connection over a wireless one.
Not one streaming provider specifies any upload speed requirement.
Not one streaming provider specifies any latency requirement.

^The imaginary need for all four of these are entirely made up by you. You do not know more than the streaming providers themselves, so stop pretending that you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crackedknee View Post
I can see HDR being something that might be helpful, though I am not totally convince by HD with HDR that I have seen (the UHD yes).

Yes, already the streaming tech is catching up, even in the last year give or take. Eventually delivered Mps speeds will equal disc, BUT: not every locale has that infrastructure (I am optimal in my set-up, with my speeds dropping at lowest to 140mps.

That doesn't mean there aren't problems. If the signal service DOES get slowed for a few hours, the various streaming services will use their adaptive features to downgrade my stream (in the case of Vudu, HDR drops out or if bad will crash, in the case of FN, video/audio drop-outs or if bad will crash).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapiendut View Post
What are you talking about? There is no upload speed required for streaming. Streaming only requires download speed. The upload speed can be as slow as a snail and it won’t make any difference. You’ve been imagining things over and over again.
You guys are the ones with problems, I see no problems. I only have 85Mbps but it's Symmetrical, and it gives me Fantastic Streaming Quality with any of the Streaming Providers. Sorry Crackedknee I know you are a Streaming supporter, but you had problems too with good download speeds but still crashed. This is my observation working with Streaming Providers the foundation is set with the right Codec and Adaptive Streaming the Bitrate can be set to give the best PQ and Audio dependent on your Infrastructure and Bandwidth. Don't say it will never happen, because we all know Technology always moves forward!
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:44 AM   #17646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
You guys are the ones with problems, I see no problems. I only have 85Mbps but it's Symmetrical, and it gives me Fantastic Streaming Quality with any of the Streaming Providers. Sorry Crackedknee I know you are a Streaming supporter, but you had problems too with good download speeds but still crashed. This is my observation working with Streaming Providers the foundation is set with the right Codec and Adaptive Streaming the Bitrate can be set to give the best PQ and Audio dependent on your Infrastructure and Bandwidth. Don't say it will never happen, because we all know Technology always moves forward!
I guarantee they're there, you're just not skilled enough to see them...
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:27 AM   #17647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
You guys are the ones with problems, I see no problems. I only have 85Mbps but it's Symmetrical, and it gives me Fantastic Streaming Quality with any of the Streaming Providers. Sorry Crackedknee I know you are a Streaming supporter, but you had problems too with good download speeds but still crashed. This is my observation working with Streaming Providers the foundation is set with the right Codec and Adaptive Streaming the Bitrate can be set to give the best PQ and Audio dependent on your Infrastructure and Bandwidth. Don't say it will never happen, because we all know Technology always moves forward!
I don't have problems with streaming; I simply see its obvious limitations. If I had problems, I would not keep paying for it. You can't see any faults because of your profound fanboy bias, but mostly because you have nothing better to compare streaming with.

As has already been explained many times, your having symmetrical internet is irrelevant. There are no published upload speed requirements for streaming because they are beyond trivial.

You do not own a 4K disc player and you have not seen the impressive quality that a 4K disc can deliver, so, as usual, you do not know what you are talking about. It is fine that you are happy with streaming, but you can not intelligently comment about what is truly possible with home video presentations because you can not view a 4K disc. You just don't know any better, but you insist on acting like you do.

You cling to your fantasy of a day when streaming equals the quality of a disc. You think new codecs will transform streaming without realizing that any new improved codecs will benefit physical media every bit as much.

Adaptive streaming has existed for years and you are clueless as to what it actually does. Adaptive streaming does not improve maximum streaming bitrates; it only adjusts the bitrate, and usually downwards, to compensate for degrading internet conditions and then back again if they improve. It can not exceed the streaming provider's maximum bitrate no matter how ideal the internet conditions are.

Improvements in streaming are possible, and is there ever room for improvement, but there is no reason at present for streaming providers to offer them. Their customers, comprised of easily pleased people like you, are already satisfied.

Improved streaming will require more bandwidth, while many can not even stream in 4K now, and more bandwidth will cost more money. Streaming customers will have to pay more if this ever happens and it is quite the assumption to assume that they will want to pay more to get it. Regardless, you can not credit streaming with improvements that have not happened.

Last edited by Vilya; 09-10-2019 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:10 AM   #17648
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I have zero problem with streaming. Netflix requires 15 mbps, I have measured and sustained 600 Mbps internet. There is never a need or requirement for the same down and up load speeds. Even if it does, my up,oad speed is more than triple the speed requirement of Netflix.

At the end of the day, you are still pushing the wrong information as fact.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:14 PM   #17649
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I just operate under the assumption that alchav21 is a master level troll at this point. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anyone could continually spout false information after they have been provided ample facts that disprove their claims repeatedly. Unless he's a politician, which would explain a lot.

If he's not a troll, then I have to assume that he has extreme learning comprehension problems. So assuming he's a troll is the kindest way to perceive him.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:47 PM   #17650
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I am looking to buy another TV!

Please visit my new thread and tell me where to go, er, , what to buy!

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post16826462

Last edited by Vilya; 09-10-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:15 PM   #17651
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Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
Don’t tell them that, even the hardcore collectors will switch to digital now!
Oh no, we want you around for a good long time.

You're in for some serious shit when TVs and movies and theaters are all not only still around but thriving twenty years from now
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:35 AM   #17652
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Welcome to the world of tomorrow!!!
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:40 AM   #17653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender14 View Post
I just operate under the assumption that alchav21 is a master level troll at this point. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anyone could continually spout false information after they have been provided ample facts that disprove their claims repeatedly. Unless he's a politician, which would explain a lot.

If he's not a troll, then I have to assume that he has extreme learning comprehension problems. So assuming he's a troll is the kindest way to perceive him.
I don't know why you call me a Troll, I have been on this Site longer than you. I don't pass misinformation, everything I talk about you can look up. With my Telco background I know what I am talking about. I know it's been a while since I Retired, but the basics are still there. Data is transmitted in Packets with Priority Addressing and Time Stamps over Fiber connected to Muxes in Central Locations all part of the CDN to your ISP. This two way communication has to be maintained for the proper Bandwidth allocation.

I'm not saying that Bitrates are going to go up, but they can depending on what kind of Picture and Sound Quality will be provide to their Customers. Apple is the highest in the 30Mbps, and Disney+ will probably follow. You guys are right it's all about cost, but with so many Streaming Providers the competition will heat up and only the Strong will Survive!
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:06 AM   #17654
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Welcome to the world of tomorrow!!!
I see you are back to your old ways. That was short lived. Two attempted wind ups in a week.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:10 PM   #17655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
I don't know why you call me a Troll, I have been on this Site longer than you. I don't pass misinformation, everything I talk about you can look up. With my Telco background I know what I am talking about. I know it's been a while since I Retired, but the basics are still there. Data is transmitted in Packets with Priority Addressing and Time Stamps over Fiber connected to Muxes in Central Locations all part of the CDN to your ISP. This two way communication has to be maintained for the proper Bandwidth allocation.

I'm not saying that Bitrates are going to go up, but they can depending on what kind of Picture and Sound Quality will be provide to their Customers. Apple is the highest in the 30Mbps, and Disney+ will probably follow. You guys are right it's all about cost, but with so many Streaming Providers the competition will heat up and only the Strong will Survive!
I'm not disputing your information on how network traffic is passed. Nor do I question your expertise in your field. But you continually claim that a wired connection is necessary for the best quality streams as opposed to wireless and that upload speed is important for streaming. But Vilya, myself and others have provided ample proof that neither of those things are true.

When I make a claim and someone provides verifiable, factual proof that my statements are wrong I don't continue to promote them. I check the claims and if I'm mistaken admit my error. That's what should happen when someone is proven wrong. But you continue to spout the same erroneous information as if it is fact when it has already been proven by people far more knowledgeable than myself that your claims are not true. Based on that, the only assumptions I can make are either you are doing it intentionally to get a rise out of people (a troll) or you are willfully ignorant. I don't know what other assumption to make.

And I don't know what you being on this site longer than me has to do with anything. I joined when I discovered the site. To assume your comments have more merit because you've been on the site longer is .
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:26 PM   #17656
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Exactly. Wired or wireless doesn’t matter as (at best) streaming requires 30 mbps when my wireless speed is 200 Mbps down and 60 Mbps up (sustained). Plus I use wired connection which makes my down to be 600 Mbps (sustained, burst can go up to 800 Mbps). Still I can easily tell whether I’m watching stream or physical media.

My wife can watch a movie on Netflix on a 65” OLED when I enter the room and I can comment right away whether she’S using Netflix or BD.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:13 PM   #17657
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Originally Posted by sapiendut View Post
Exactly. Wired or wireless doesn’t matter as (at best) streaming requires 30 mbps when my wireless speed is 200 Mbps down and 60 Mbps up (sustained). Plus I use wired connection which makes my down to be 600 Mbps (sustained, burst can go up to 800 Mbps). Still I can easily tell whether I’m watching stream or physical media.

My wife can watch a movie on Netflix on a 65” OLED when I enter the room and I can comment right away whether she’S using Netflix or BD.
It’s really obvious to notice the difference. It always makes me laugh when people claim they can’t see the difference.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:47 PM   #17658
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Especially when anybody claim that streaming is “perfect” or “amazing”. Heck I can’t even generalize physical media as perfect or amazing.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:56 PM   #17659
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Especially when anybody claim that streaming is “perfect” or “amazing”. Heck I can’t even generalize physical media as perfect or amazing.
I trust my own eyes. Some idiots were claiming there was little difference with DVD and Blu. I watched my first film on Blu-Ray (Appocalypto) and I was stunned. I couldn’t help thinking how stupid some comments are. It was night and day difference.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:23 PM   #17660
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I see you are back to your old ways. That was short lived. Two attempted wind ups in a week.


Nah, just bored with the same old rinse and repeat
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