HDR Discussion Thread

[fredreed]

Just how much better is HDR vs. SDR If you have a 4K TV? I have a 4K TV from LG however I don't the LG 4K TV set does not currently have HDR unless

I can get the HD Fury converter and I was just wondering how much better is HDR then SDR like brightness and color? I will notice a better brighter picture with HDR then with SDR?

[Sxoob]

I've searched the thread but can't find the answer to my problems. New tv owner here. Bought the Vizio M558-G1 a few days ago.

I'm getting 4K Dolby Vision on the one series I can find on Prime that has it (using Smartcast App), but when I switch to my Xbox One S to try and view the same content with Prime app, it doesn't display in Dolby Vision. I also put 4K disc for Justice League in and it's displaying in HDR10, not Dolby Vision.

I'm running a 10ft Amazon Basics High Speed HDMI cable into an HDMI splitter that is rated for Dolby Vision, and then the HDMI cord that came with Xbox One S into the splitter. Any ideas? Is 10ft too long to run the current Amazon Basics HDMI 2.0 cord and still achieve Dolby Vision? Do I need to go HDMI 2.1 over 10ft? Any help is appreciated. I've turned game mode on and off and it doesn't seem to matter. I've also made sure to allow UHD and Dolby Vision in xbox settings.

I have searched the ends of the internet for a CL3 rated(in-wall), 10ft hdmi cable that is capable of carrying Dolby Vision. Any suggestions?

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Still, it's a potent reminder of what's literally just been discussed in this thread re: average brightness for HDR. Mando absolutely has a low APL, slightly lower than my comparative viewing of the SDR version at 140 nits peak white, so when that then gets tone mapped and/or viewed with ambient light and/or is being compared to SDR jacked up into many hundreds of nits it could end up looking much darker. But yeah, there's still plenty of people who are viewing it as intended and wanting/expecting sizzling brightness, not getting it and throwing their toys out of the pram, partly on the basis of spurious technical comments like "it's using up too much power on the backlight" where people are just regurgitating what they're being told.

Puddy mentioned it upthread, I reiterated it in the comments for that Mando YT vid, it's kinda scary how quickly HDR has gone from being regarded as the devil's work to people complaining when they're *not* being blinded by it. Not that there haven't been plenty of these complaints along the way but with misguided YT vids - there's a surprise, eh? - from people who seem to think that everything should be kicking out 10k nits then this whole "fake HDR" thing is just going to run and run. Fake HDR? Fake news more like, gotta get them clicks I guess.

So are you going to say the same thing if Disney masters the original trilogy on disc at 1000 nits, vs the 400 nits streaming, or if they release the Mandalorian on disc @ 1000 nits vs 200 nits streaming?

[avs commenter]

The dimness could be used to hide the lower budget (for a SW film)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

So are you going to say the same thing if Disney masters the original trilogy on disc at 1000 nits, vs the 400 nits streaming, or if they release the Mandalorian on disc @ 1000 nits vs 200 nits streaming?

What does that have to do with anything? They've made their creative choice with these grades and, if Disnee's HDR disc output thus far has been any indication, then they're squarely in that same wheelhouse. It's like people have never watched a Disnee UHD before, it's so strange.

If they're brighter on disc and still come with the filmmakers' express involvement then I'll watch them and enjoy them, and be all the happier that people will stop whining. Well, until the next time that Evil Boris whips out his patented heat map and the circus starts up again. YouTube corrupts all, it seems. Why bother with sensible, well informed videos when hyperbolic clickbait does the job so much easier?

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What does that have to do with anything? They've made their creative choice with these grades and, if Disnee's HDR disc output thus far has been any indication, then they're squarely in that same wheelhouse. It's like people have never watched a Disnee UHD before, it's so strange.

If they're brighter on disc and still come with the filmmakers' express involvement then I'll watch them and enjoy them, and be all the happier that people will stop whining. Well, until the next time that Evil Boris whips out his patented heat map and the circus starts up again. YouTube corrupts all, it seems. Why bother with sensible, well informed videos when hyperbolic clickbait does the job so much easier?

Yea, clickbait, that's exactly what evilboris and Vincent do. Just throw out what they say because you don't like it.

[LordoftheRings]

Star Wars 4K HDR, how much does it really matter ... Disney+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3h...ature=youtu.be

• HDR: Nits, nits, nits ...
https://www.engadget.com/2019/11/26/...n-hdr-quality/

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Star Wars 4K HDR, how much does it really matter ... Disney+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm3h...ature=youtu.be

• HDR: Nits, nits, nits ...
https://www.engadget.com/2019/11/26/...n-hdr-quality/

He is confusing the blu ray vs the 4k streams. Yes, he is right, the 4K streams are a lot better than the BD. My complaint is the 4K HDR stream, or in my case, the 4K DV HDR stream really is only slightly better than the 4K SDR stream. Detail is the same on both. DV provides a little added punch with color when it actually appears.

I'm not saying the image is bad, just not much different. So if that was Disney's intent, I can accept that.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

Yea, clickbait, that's exactly what evilboris and Vincent do. Just throw out what they say because you don't like it.

Not at all. Vincent's been a shining light on youtube compared to the boundless hordes of ****tards who clog the place up with their inanity, he's well informed and witty with it, but this is strangely sensationalist i.e. there's more than a whiff of clickbait with these specific articles. If you're gonna kick up about "fake HDR" then why not wait until SW comes along?

I gladly went along with him when he said he was a "nits wh0re", patting myself on the back as I also got me a Light Cannon™ of a TV and HDR has been amazing, but more and more lately there's been pushback from people who, if they don't get HDR that's so bright it gives them a goddamned tan, immediately decry it as being no better than SDR according solely to their arbitrary scales - even though I can actually demonstrate that that's not the case. HDR has many levels, it's not about all or nothing and for newer content then there's no confusion here, the talent want it like that and it staggers me that a person of his intelligence can't see that, that blinding HDR is only about "time and resources" or whatever it was. Um...no.

Vincent and evilboris are getting so caught up with their video games that can do 10k nits without breaking a sweat that they're losing sight of what content providers might otherwise want to do with live action HDR content, i.e. the medium is being put before the message and it reminds me of the kinds of people who'll swerve buying a 4K UHD of their favourite movie just because it doesn't have Atmos. I don't want to know them just as I ain't got no time for people who write off an HDR presentation in such an ignorant way.

Originally Posted by wxman2003

He is confusing the blu ray vs the 4k streams. Yes, he is right, the 4K streams are a lot better than the BD. My complaint is the 4K HDR stream, or in my case, the 4K DV HDR stream really is only slightly better than the 4K SDR stream. Detail is the same on both. DV provides a little added punch with color when it actually appears.

I'm not saying the image is bad, just not much different. So if that was Disney's intent, I can accept that.

Wait, what? Matey posts another YT video by way of rebuttal and all of a sudden it's now "it's not bad, just different, and if it's their intent I can accept that"? What the fudge have I been saying all this time, have I come in through the alternate dimension door or something? Shows the power of YT I guess.

[bytor]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

My complaint is the 4K HDR stream, or in my case, the 4K DV HDR stream really is only slightly better than the 4K SDR stream. Detail is the same on both. DV provides a little added punch with color when it actually appears.

I'm not saying the image is bad, just not much different. So if that was Disney's intent, I can accept that.

Did you even look at the screenshots Geoff posted? There is a clear difference. Geoff's Solo comparison was on point and at no time while watching The Mandalorian did I feel I wasn't getting some nice HDR on my Z9D. All of the effects had a nice pop watching in my dark room and were clearly expanded from what SDR could produce.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Vincent and evilboris are getting so caught up with their video games that can do 10k nits without breaking a sweat that they're losing sight of what content providers might otherwise want to do with live action HDR content, i.e. the medium is being put before the message and it reminds me of the kinds of people who'll swerve buying a 4K UHD of their favourite movie just because it doesn't have Atmos. I don't want to know them just as I ain't got no time for people who write off an HDR presentation in such an ignorant way.

I'm sure part of it with Vincent at least is he's more about the technology than the content. If something isn't using the FULL power of his new toys then it's not going to do much for him.

And it's interesting how this kind of parallels with people's complaints about Disney Atmos mixes. Because they're not compressed to hell and in your face loud, uninformed people complain about them. But the reality is their mixes are usually very dynamic and mastered for people with high-end systems that have some juice.

[Geoff D]

Reading it back I think Mr 2003 might be referencing the SW grades in that top quote rather than the Mando, but I'd then ask how come he's happy to take them at face value in HDR but not the Mando? Just because Stone Cold Vincent said so?

[chip75]

Originally Posted by bytor

I'm sure part of it with Vincent at least is he's more about the technology than the content. If something isn't using the FULL power of his new toys then it's not going to do much for him.

I would have thought Vincent is all about Content Intent™, he is after all a TV reviewer and professional calibrator.

[Geoff D]

Right? That's exactly what's baking my noodle here: someone who strives for accuracy to creative intent, hell, someone who makes a living out of it, is now happy to just dropkick creative intent out of the nearest emergency exit? (Barring there being any technical problem with D+ which is doing this.) Dunno. If you'd put a goatee on him in those videos and said this was Evil Vincent (see what I did there?) from another dimension then I could believe it.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...

Wait, what? Matey posts another YT video by way of rebuttal and all of a sudden it's now "it's not bad, just different, and if it's their intent I can accept that"? What the fudge have I been saying all this time, have I come in through the alternate dimension door or something? Shows the power of YT I guess.

Right? That's exactly what's baking my noodle ...

WELCOME to the Matrix, my friend.

Just never ending cycles...

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Such a shame that the same can't be said for people, eh? The brighter the nits, the dumber they get. Dynamic. Range. Is. Not. Just. About. Brightness.

Ep 3 of the Mando had some excellent moments of specular enhancement throughout, I didn't need to do any SDR comparisons to see it first of all but I went and did some anyway, with the usual caveat of photographs not being 100% accurate to either SDR or HDR but as a point of comparison the differences are quite plain, to me anyway.

First batch: http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DGWKGNNX

look at the outer gas burners, you can see the little 'ring' of nozzles, look at the sparks in the second one, check how the fire just clips to white in the third one.

Second batch: http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/JE0FMNNU

So much more definition and impact of the speculars in the first one, second one loses lots of colour volume because SDR can't do high brightness AND colour, third one gains a lovely diaphenous look to the clouds and the speculars on the ship also have more zest

And it's not just in these single isolated moments but throughout this third episode, even when the Mando is sitting in the cockpit of his ship at the start the highlights on his helmet and armour clip to fat, flat circles of white in SDR while the HDR renders the specular into a tiny dot of light.

The HDR is so much more 'dimensional' because of the speculars while the SDR looks slightly brighter in the APL - this is at 140 nits peak white for SDR - at the expense of looking significantly 'flatter', the depth and volume that HDR provides is just gone. This bullshit with "heat maps" is starting to remind me of the bitrate watchers, that all they're doing is looking at the numbers rather than the actual content.

Did you take these screenshots? Imma repost these in another forum. Giving you full credit of course.

[Geoff D]

They're literally photos of a screen taken with a wee Sony pocket camera so bear that caveat in mind, they're not direct captures of the material so can and will appear darker than the content actually is, but yes I did do that comparison (I do them a lot for my 'reviews' on here and decided to do the same thing for the much maligned Mando).

[multiformous]

Someone, Sometime In The 90s: "We've got all this leftover available headroom in our compact discs. If we're not using all the dynamic range in our fancy container, what's the point? Let's start maxing out those signals to full scale, everyone!"

[Things continue to go smoothly and music was never harmed in the process.]

I love Teoh's videos (crude jokes notwithstanding), but this "proper HDR" nonsense is sorta getting my goat. If you think an HDR presentation is "fake" because it may just be a dumb conversion instead of being graded from scratch, that's one thing. But if HDR content is intentionally mastered by creators to peak "only" at ~200 nits, how is that not proper HDR? Unless it was done in error, it's as "real" and "proper" as HDR content with 4 000 nit peaks.

And even if content in an HDR container had its highlights mastered to just above what properly-viewed SDR would exhibit, one still must take into the account the improvement in shadow and mid-tone 'resolution'. The increase in code values dedicated to representing the range in HDR roughly equivalent to the dark/midtone SDR range is enough to make the whole thing worthwhile, with headroom for highlights being the icing on the cake (to be used how content creators see fit). I typically avoid getting into conversations like this, but this post is really just an excuse to share this chart:

[Geoff D]

But but but...won't someone please think of all the poor backlights that are being "maxed out"?!?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Sxoob

I've searched the thread but can't find the answer to my problems. New tv owner here. Bought the Vizio M558-G1 a few days ago.

I'm getting 4K Dolby Vision on the one series I can find on Prime that has it (using Smartcast App), but when I switch to my Xbox One S to try and view the same content with Prime app, it doesn't display in Dolby Vision. I also put 4K disc for Justice League in and it's displaying in HDR10, not Dolby Vision.

I'm running a 10ft Amazon Basics High Speed HDMI cable into an HDMI splitter that is rated for Dolby Vision, and then the HDMI cord that came with Xbox One S into the splitter. Any ideas? Is 10ft too long to run the current Amazon Basics HDMI 2.0 cord and still achieve Dolby Vision? Do I need to go HDMI 2.1 over 10ft? Any help is appreciated. I've turned game mode on and off and it doesn't seem to matter. I've also made sure to allow UHD and Dolby Vision in xbox settings.

I have searched the ends of the internet for a CL3 rated(in-wall), 10ft hdmi cable that is capable of carrying Dolby Vision. Any suggestions?

XBOX One (S or X) does not support Dolby Vision in the 4K Blu-ray app, at least not yet. Currently I've seen DV support only on Netflix and Disney+ for that unit. I have to retest Vudu and Amazon Prime.

My TV (Sony Z9D) supports DV for Netflix, Vudu, Disney+, Amazon and Movies Anywhere.

For disc DV playback I use an Oppo 203

[Vincent Teoh]

Hi everyone

Vincent from HDTVTest here. Have been directed to this forum thread to address some criticisms which have become increasingly vicious. Even though I have a public front, I am also very sensitive (ding).

Re us doing the video for clickbaiting/ as fake news, let's just say that if I really wanted to clickbait, I would be focusing on Black Friday videos, not a subject as niche as high dynamic range. :-)

We have a powerful luminance mapping tool at our disposal (developed by my colleague Adam) which allows us to instantly visualise the luminance in all types of content, and it just so happens that the Star Wars Original Trilogy and The Mandalorian on Disney+ are new titles that our audience have asked to be analysed, so it makes perfect sense to run our analysis and report our results.

Our analysis was based on Episode 1 and 2 (as mentioned clearly in our video), so to try and use screenshots from Episode 3 to debunk our analysis is illogical. Perhaps the grading for Episode 3 has been tweaked in response to all the complaints? But we will take a look at Episode 3 at some point.

Is there any definitive evidence that the 200-nit peak brightness HDR is simply creator's intent? Of course with all the backlash, the producers/ colourists at Disney may eventually publicly announce that yes, indeed, it is creator's intent, but based on our analysis not only with Adam's heatmap, but also waveform analysis of the first two episodes of The Mandalorian, there is no extra dynamic range information that's available in the 4K HDR stream that's not available in the 4K SDR stream. It looks like a crude conversion to us, someone somewhere in the workflow just pressing a push-button fix either through laziness, incompetence, or misunderstanding of how it affects end displays.

While I fully respect creator's intent (given my profession and all), I do not want it to be used as a convenient excuse to cover up for operator error and incompetence. All Adam and I are doing is to put a spotlight on the issue, to see if things can improve for end consumers.

I see a few of you claiming that The Mandalorian looks good own a Sony ZD9, which is one of the best LED LCDs ever made with more than 650 local dimming zones, and capable of 1800 nits of peak brightness. I have reviewed and calibrated many sub-1000-nit LED LCDs with significantly less dimming zones, and on these displays, HDR content that is mastered to a peak brightness of 200 or even 400 nits will look worse than SDR in the following ways (due to the LED backlight being driven to maximum):

1) Native blacks will be at least 3 times brighter than in SDR. And when there's no corresponding increase in peak white, the perceived contrast and dynamic range actually reduces. Hypothetically:

SDR = 100 nits white / 0.05 nits black = 2000:1 contrast ratio
HDR = 200 nits white / 0.15 nits black = 1333:1 contrast ratio

Does this drop in contrast fulfill the creative intent?

2) Any backlight uniformity issues such as clouding or backlight bleed will be more visible in areas that are not helped by local dimming.

3) When an elevated native black level of 0.15 nits with backlight driven to maximum is added to all colours (coz they need to be illuminated, innit), the colours are diluted and colour purity suffers especially in darker scenes.

Does this reduced colour accuracy fulfill the creative intent?

4) In HDR mode, the colour calibration and gamma controls on most TVs are significantly more limited in range and effectiveness than corresponding controls in SDR mode. So there are less tools available to correct the inaccurate colours. Does this fulfill the creative intent?

When HDR looks visibly worse than SDR on the majority of displays outside the 1800-nit Sony ZD9/ Z9D, we have a problem, creative intent (which isn't definitely established to our knowledge) or not. And when such HDR content are increasing TV power consumption yet result in worse picture quality, we have a problem. If nothing else, our hope is that our video helps studios and post-production facilities understand how their grading translates onto everyday consumer sets, and to use the appropriate medium for delivery. If you want a subdued SDR look, don't grade in a 4000-nit HDR container; just grade in SDR, accept that you can't charge as much, but at least you'll deliver a better picture for the masses.

Warmest regards
Vincent