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Old 09-22-2012, 01:19 PM   #61
yumny yumny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
29) The Rescuers Down Under (1990)
This is an excellent example of a transfer done right. Although the transfer isnīt all digital like I think everyone would have liked, it's still clean, detail is crisp, and colors are improved. Thumbs up for this comparison.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:49 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yumny View Post
This is an excellent example of a transfer done right. Although the transfer isnīt all digital like I think everyone would have liked, it's still clean, detail is crisp, and colors are improved. Thumbs up for this comparison.
I agree. Thanks again for making this comparison, Lnds500!

I also think these BD-Screenshots look very fine!... There is still some grain-like structure visible. It's not been cleaned to death. Lines are sharp, not blurry at all, like the problems with The Aristocats. Some faint lines, mainly in the wings and in the boy's hair, have disappeared because of DNR unfortunately, but nothing serious.
And about the transfer not being all digital: yes, I know that would have been great, but... Take a look over here:

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/

In those two Screenshots the BD is compared to the original CAPS files. One can clearly see that SOME lines are sharper and the backgrounds are completely clean, of course, but... I really think the BD looks better overall, don't you think?...
It appears that the CAPS shots have not been color corrected, whereas the BD has been. The CAPS shots are dull, whereas the BD is full of life!...

Anyone care to comment on WHY Disney seems to insist on film source instead of CAPS source for this movie?... I think there is a good reason for it.

Last edited by Freddy2; 09-22-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 09-22-2012, 02:43 PM   #63
Lnds500 Lnds500 is offline
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Originally Posted by Freddy2 View Post
I agree. Thanks again for making this comparison, Lnds500!

I also think these BD-Screenshots look very fine!... There is still some grain-like structure visible. It's not been cleaned to death. Lines are sharp, not blurry at all, like the problems with The Aristocats. Some faint lines, mainly in the wings and in the boy's hair, have disappeared because of DNR unfortunately, but nothing serious.
And about the transfer not being all digital: yes, I know that would have been great, but... Take a look over here:

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/

In those two Screenshots the BD is compared to the original CAPS files. One can clearly see that SOME lines are sharper and the backgrounds are completely clean, of course, but... I really think the BD looks better overall, don't you think?...
It appears that the CAPS shots have not been color corrected, whereas the BD has been. The CAPS shots are dull, whereas the BD is full of life!...

Anyone care to comment on WHY Disney seems to insist on film source instead of CAPS source for this movie?... I think there is a good reason for it.

the CAPS screenshots look absolutely amazing!!! I'll update the comparison with them.. The BD looks like sh*t compared to them. look at the birds! and yay for more picture on the sides!

now the question remains... if they do have the CAPS files available and clips of the originals can be seen on other Blu-rays, why didn't they use the digital source?
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Old 09-22-2012, 02:49 PM   #64
yumny yumny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post

the CAPS screenshots look absolutely amazing!!! I'll update the comparison with them.. The BD looks like sh*t compared to them. look at the birds! and yay for more picture on the sides!

now the question remains... if they do have the CAPS files available and clips of the originals can be seen on other Blu-rays, why didn't they use the digital source?
I thought you were being sarcastic but seeing those pictures OH MY FLIPPING GOD WHY

/my head is gonna explode from all the pure and utter frustration
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:30 PM   #65
Freddy2 Freddy2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Freddy2 View Post
In those two Screenshots the BD is compared to the original CAPS files. One can clearly see that SOME lines are sharper and the backgrounds are completely clean, of course, but... I really think the BD looks better overall, don't you think?...
It appears that the CAPS shots have not been color corrected, whereas the BD has been. The CAPS shots are dull, whereas the BD is full of life!...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
the CAPS screenshots look absolutely amazing!!! I'll update the comparison with them.. The BD looks like sh*t compared to them. look at the birds! and yay for more picture on the sides!
Quote:
Originally Posted by yumny View Post
I thought you were being sarcastic but seeing those pictures OH MY FLIPPING GOD WHY

/my head is gonna explode from all the pure and utter frustration
I take it you two do not agree with my "conclusion"?...
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:05 PM   #66
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Wow. The digital source looks so amazing. Its sad disney treated it like this. I wish we could complain enough to get disney to do a recall like tarzan. Its definitely in a different aspect ratio but I like it better. The colors and the lines are beautiful
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:17 AM   #67
Lnds500 Lnds500 is offline
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Originally Posted by Freddy2 View Post
I take it you two do not agree with my "conclusion"?...
sorry but no sorry it's digital and it looks like digital should. As I said in my PM, it looks like Pocahontas and having seen this, I hate that we have to make-do with the current Blu-ray for the next 10 -or more- years (judging by the film's home video history)
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:18 AM   #68
yumny yumny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
sorry but no sorry it's digital and it looks like digital should. As I said in my PM, it looks like Pocahontas and having seen this, I hate that we have to make-do with the current Blu-ray for the next 10 -or more- years (judging by the film's home video history)
Well to be fair the colors are warmer, but the gorgeousness of the digital transfer is impossible to deny.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:56 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yumny View Post
Well to be fair the colors are warmer, but the gorgeousness of the digital transfer is impossible to deny.
Well... I agree that IF the CAPS transfer would be color corrected, it COULD be better than the BD. But the way these two CAPS-shots look right now, I can't say I like them that much.

The eyes of the boy and the bird are completely lifeless.
And yes, the lines are sharper, but in a lot of cases in an unnatural way. The birds look very "artistic", if you know what I mean. The drops of water also have these strange outlines, not at all pretty.

Just a thought: could it be that the CAPS system wasn't quite ready yet at the time, RDU being the first CAPS movie, to produce a result that could stand on its own? Maybe the actual process of getting the end result on film, complete with an increase in brightness and getting a little grainy, was really part of the process.
Look for example at the bird's feathers. Do they look like feathers to you in the CAPS-shot?... They're just a big patch of white, nothing more really. Whereas in the Blu-ray there is structure in it. It looks more real to me. Maybe this was meant to be?...
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:59 PM   #70
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I think some people are missing the point here. Although the CAPS system played a part in the production of this particular movie, it wasn't considered the actual master to which IP and dupes are created. The CAPS data was printed onto a new film stock, and that was the master.

So although you're getting the 'raw' images from the CAPS data in the above example, the tricky aspect of this release is what one considers the original presentation of the movie, because a direct feed of the CAPS data is far removed from how even the 35mm master would have appeared.

My guess is that like Beauty and the Beast, Disney won't think twice about taking CAPS data and having a play with it. It's wrong from a standpoint of faithfulness, but these guys don't care about the integrity of art (sadly).
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:10 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miniroll32 View Post
I think some people are missing the point here. Although the CAPS system played a part in the production of this particular movie, it wasn't considered the actual master to which IP and dupes are created. The CAPS data was printed onto a new film stock, and that was the master.

So although you're getting the 'raw' images from the CAPS data in the above example, the tricky aspect of this release is what one considers the original presentation of the movie, because a direct feed of the CAPS data is far removed from how even the 35mm master would have appeared.

My guess is that like Beauty and the Beast, Disney won't think twice about taking CAPS data and having a play with it. It's wrong from a standpoint of faithfulness, but these guys don't care about the integrity of art (sadly).
So you are saying that the film + grain is a more accurate representation of the film? I believe the film master was called that because, well, they didn't have the means to transfer it digitally to cinemas and home video. So, on one hand you have the digital master and on the other hand the digital master.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:41 PM   #72
yumny yumny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
So you are saying that the film + grain is a more accurate representation of the film? I believe the film master was called that because, well, they didn't have the means to transfer it digitally to cinemas and home video. So, on one hand you have the digital master and on the other hand the digital master.
This is getting increasingly confusing. I wish there was someone here who caught RDE in cinemas back when it was released so they could tell us if it had grain back then, too.
Personally I like grain for most animated movies, but for CAPS-sourced Disney movies, the slick look is just so undeniably satisfying..
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:16 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by yumny View Post
This is getting increasingly confusing. I wish there was someone here who caught RDE in cinemas back when it was released so they could tell us if it had grain back then, too.
Personally I like grain for most animated movies, but for CAPS-sourced Disney movies, the slick look is just so undeniably satisfying..
It did. Digital projection is not very old. Anyway, Ernest Rister has already told us that "it looks like it did in the cinema" (or something really close to that). I don't know about you, but personally I would find it unacceptable to watch The Lion King or Beauty and the Beast like they were shown in cinemas (I have the Gold Collection DVD of Pocahontas vs. the Blu-ray in mind ).

Last edited by Lnds500; 09-29-2012 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:36 PM   #74
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
It did. Digital projection is not very old. Anyway, Ernest Rinster has already told us that "it looks like it did in the cinema" (or something really close to that). I don't know about you, but personally I would find it unacceptable to watch The Lion King or Beauty and the Beast like they were shown in cinemas (I have the Gold Collection DVD of Pocahontas vs. the Blu-ray in mind ).
I said I was very disappointed that it wasn't a CAPS transfer, but this disappointment is salved by the fact that it appears very faithful to the original theatrical release. The DVD Gold Collection release was problematic in several areas -- watching the new Blu, I took comfort in the fact that Cody's shoes were no longer olive green when saving Marahute, for instance, but were instead the original dark tan. The film looks and feels like it did when I saw it.

Having said that, I'm not adverse to the original creative team coming in and re-timing things to bring things closer to their intent, and I also recognize that *no* movie on home video looks like it did projected by film in a theater. I try not to be a zealot about these things. I also know Disney is presenting these films for home theater audiences, sitting in rooms with all the lights on, or with daylight streaming through the windows, or watching on mobile devices, or in the back seat of mini-vans and suburbans. They're trying to compete with other studios, and this leads to some almost surreal colors on Blu-ray. I also know that prior home video releases of certain movies made decades and decades ago don't look the way they did on original release, either, but modern Disney fans have digested the home releases so many times they *think* they are the original colors and contrast and what not.

Will I be disappointed if Cinderella comes to market and noise-reduction software removed details? You bet. That defeats the purpose of a preservation to begin with. I just take a wait and see approach and try to keep an even keel these days. Becoming much more zen in my old age.

While I have the time to chat here, the one thing that has bothered me the most regarding Disney Blus are a couple of scenes in Snow White, in camera "zooms" where it appears the elements fall out of registration, causing a fuzzy, blurry, effect. I'm going to do my own comparison now, but I don't recall seeing that in the theatrical presentations, or on the old VHS and laserdisc master, but that to me was jarring, and it happened more than once. Going to look now.

Anyway, just my two cents, or cent and a half. Will check in later.

EDIT

Just checked..."blurry" moments are on the old 2001 Snow White DVD, as well. They're just more apparent on the Blu because of the definition. Well, one less thing to be concerned about...

You know, I was watching the new Blu for Dumbo, and I saw what looked like DNR software smearing and line removal, and I checked these against the 60th anniversary DVD of Dumbo from 2001 and saw the same thing. I was mystified by it, because I couldn't deduce how it happened in original photography.

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 09-29-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:55 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
I said I was very disappointed that it wasn't a CAPS transfer, but this disappointment is salved by the fact that it appears very faithful to the original theatrical release. The DVD Gold Collection release was problematic in several areas -- watching the new Blu, I took comfort in the fact that Cody's shoes were no longer olive green when saving Marahute, for instance, but were instead the original dark tan. The film looks and feels like it did when I saw it.
Can you really remember that kind of details? I'm impressed! I couldn't for films I've watched over and over again (BatB, TLK, Aladdin)

Quote:
Having said that, I'm not adverse to the original creative team coming in and re-timing things to bring things closer to their intent, and I also recognize that *no* movie on home video looks like it did projected by film in a theater. I try not to be a zealot about these things.
This. We can rightfully complain about DNR, missing line-art, edge enhancement etc, but colours will change by intention of the makers or mistake and there is really nothing you can do about this. You just have to keep your hopes up that they will look close to what you remembered

Quote:
I also know that prior home video releases of certain movies made decades and decades ago don't look the way they did on original release, either, but modern Disney fans have digested the home releases so many times they *think* they are the original colors and contrast and what not.
Yeah, but Disney claims that the past home video releases + a lot of the theatrical presentations / rereleases were affected because the film which was used was a double or triple dupe of the original negative. On the contrary, they also claim that more recent restorations have been closer than ever to the original artistic intent due to the fact that they use the original negatives now. So no one can really know aside from the creators themselves.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:38 PM   #76
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
Can you really remember that kind of details? I'm impressed! I couldn't for films I've watched over and over again (BatB, TLK, Aladdin)
All the browns in Resucers Down Under were off on the DVD - not too disimilar from the "green tint" controversey for Fellowship of the Ring. I have the benefit of having a couple of decades of written essays and my own archives under my belt (including owning the original RDU press kit, from when I was writing for UT's Daily Texan newspaper), and my review of the DVD in 1999 was only nine years after seeing the film multiple times in the theater, and I knew within minutes of seeing the DVD for the first time that something was off...I did not have anything close to the same reaction seeing the film on CAV laserdisc.

It's the same thing with those who are upset about the color timing in Beauty and the Beast. Yes, it *is* different, with the only caveat being the original creative team approved the new color timing. I really can't bring myself to believe the DVD of RDU was approved by Butoy and Gabriel, because the Blu-Ray actually is far closer to the CAV disc and my press kit materials than it is to that muddy, odd green DVD from 12 years ago. I only watched it a few times after purchasing it, and as it's one of my favorite animated films from the last 25 years, that's saying a lot regarding my disappointment.

So, again, very disappointed we didn't get a CAPS transfer, but still, at least the color issues were corrected, and I think it's a fine looking Blu. I'll take it, and hope for something a bit sharper and closer to original files one day.

You know, there is the possibility that maybe returning to the original files would have proved problematic in myriad ways (aliasing on all the CGI creations). They might have had all that dust swirling around the MacLeach tractor for a reason, as an example, and counted on film grain to soften everything up. Just a "what if".

Quote:
This. We can rightfully complain about DNR, missing line-art, edge enhancement etc, but colours will change by intention of the makers or mistake and there is really nothing you can do about this. You just have to keep your hopes up that they will look close to what you remembered
+1
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:52 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
All the browns in Resucers Down Under were off on the DVD - not too disimilar from the "green tint" controversey for Fellowship of the Ring. I have the benefit of having a couple of decades of written essays and my own archives under my belt (including owning the original RDU press kit, from when I was writing for UT's Daily Texan newspaper), and my review of the DVD in 1999 was only nine years after seeing the film multiple times in the theater, and I knew within minutes of seeing the DVD for the first time that something was off...I did not have anything close to the same reaction seeing the film on CAV laserdisc.

It's the same thing with those who are upset about the color timing in Beauty and the Beast. Yes, it *is* different, with the only caveat being the original creative team approved the new color timing. I really can't bring myself to believe the DVD of RDU was approved by Butoy and Gabriel, because the Blu-Ray actually is far closer to the CAV disc and my press kit materials than it is to that muddy, odd green DVD from 12 years ago. I only watched it a few times after purchasing it, and as it's one of my favorite animated films from the last 25 years, that's saying a lot regarding my disappointment.
Thanks for the info!

EDIT: yeah, i get what you mean about the browns



Quote:
You know, there is the possibility that maybe returning to the original files would have proved problematic in myriad ways (aliasing on all the CGI creations). They might have had all that dust swirling around the MacLeach tractor for a reason, as an example, and counted on film grain to soften everything up. Just a "what if".
The models! Yes. That has been bothering me ever since I saw the BD. How come the CG models don't have aliasing issues? I can't grasp the concept behind this. Did the film used carry really high-res CG models? Was that even possible at the time?

Last edited by Lnds500; 09-29-2012 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 01:09 AM   #78
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Thanks for the screen comparisons of the browns, Lnds! Not even an argument, is it? Also see Cody's shoes when he's freeing Marahute...it's the whole movie, though. The shoes are when I noticed something demonstrably off, back in 2000 or so.

As for the CAPS and aliasing issues, I only raised it as a possibility. I doubt they are *that* much different than that seen in Beauty and the Beast (such as the Beast's self-animated carriage). Only a year separates those two, so the simpler explanation is probably that they didn't budget for a CAPS transfer, they just did a very good master from the original film negative.

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 09-30-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:13 AM   #79
yumny yumny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
It did. Digital projection is not very old. Anyway, Ernest Rister has already told us that "it looks like it did in the cinema" (or something really close to that). I don't know about you, but personally I would find it unacceptable to watch The Lion King or Beauty and the Beast like they were shown in cinemas (I have the Gold Collection DVD of Pocahontas vs. the Blu-ray in mind ).
Have never seen it. I went straight from VHS to Blu-Ray with Pocahontas, but still I am always astounded by how majestic and incredible the BD looks. I tried to put in the Lion King yesterday to compare and found that even though both are neat CAPS transfers, I definitely like Pocahontas' looks better.

Anyway to come back to topic, it's interesting to talk to someone who caught these movies in cinemas. I don't know if Lion King / Pocahontas originally had grain in cinemas; you're implying that they did. Either way I would not have liked them all grainy.

In conclusion I guess I have no choice and will definitely be buying RDE the way it is and enjoy it.. I've never seen it before. Right now, it and The Rescuers are the only Disney movies beside the CGI crap and the 40s package films I haven't seen.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:43 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by yumny View Post
Have never seen it. I went straight from VHS to Blu-Ray with Pocahontas, but still I am always astounded by how majestic and incredible the BD looks. I tried to put in the Lion King yesterday to compare and found that even though both are neat CAPS transfers, I definitely like Pocahontas' looks better.

Anyway to come back to topic, it's interesting to talk to someone who caught these movies in cinemas. I don't know if Lion King / Pocahontas originally had grain in cinemas; you're implying that they did. Either way I would not have liked them all grainy.

In conclusion I guess I have no choice and will definitely be buying RDE the way it is and enjoy it.. I've never seen it before. Right now, it and The Rescuers are the only Disney movies beside the CGI crap and the 40s package films I haven't seen.
I went from Gold Collection DVD to Blu-ray and the leap is equally astounding. The 10th Anniversary release was a digital-to-digital transfer and it was pretty impressive but it was never released here so I never actually saw it.

I posted a comparison when I got my hands on the Blu-ray. These are not exact frames but you get the difference.

Might do a full comparison of this one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lnds500
Pocahontas
Video: 5/5
Audio: 5/5
Extras: 3,5/5


Pocahontas's transfer is spotless. Compared to the HDTV-rip that's been floating around, this release has been "colour-corrected", but don't expect tremendous differences. The extras are ok, a lot has been ported over but there was no audio commentary for example.


Comparison

Gold Collection DVD ------ HDTV Rip ---------- Blu-ray









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