4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Here's my thoughts on 48fps in 3D after witnessing the Hobbit today. FYI, I didn't like it. But...

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 48FPS IS THE REAL ****ING DEAL...IN 3D.

This was the absolute best 3D presentation I've ever witnessed. I don't like 3D in the slightest. It's a gimmick. But at 48fps, it's a ****ing revelation...

That’s good to hear. Reviews as passionate as yours should help pave the way for Avatar II. On a technical note, in order to eliminate all motion artifacts with object motion > 20 deg/sec, the filmmaker must shoot and exhibit at more than 48 fps though. By doing so, that should be beneficial to that small proportion of viewers having trouble with watching any stereoscopic content on a flat surface, like my sister-in-law and wife. In other words, I implore HFR filmmakers to not stop at 48 fps for 3D.

Jumpman, do you know what type/brand the projector system it was with which you viewed the presentation?

Also…and I take no offense if you prefer not to reveal it but, may I humbly ask how old you are? as I think younger viewers may be more inclined to readily embrace HFR because they haven’t become so ‘24fps jaded’, so to speak…which unfortunately I am, but will try to work on.

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

That’s good to hear. Reviews as passionate as yours should help pave the way for Avatar II. On a technical note, in order to eliminate all motion artifacts with object motion > 20 deg/sec, the filmmaker must shoot and exhibit at more than 48 fps though. By doing so, that should be beneficial to that small proportion of viewers having trouble with watching any stereoscopic content on a flat surface, like my sister-in-law and wife. In other words, I implore HFR filmmakers to not stop at 48 fps for 3D.

Jumpman, do you know what type/brand the projector system it was with which you viewed the presentation?

Also…and I take no offense if you prefer not to reveal it but, may I humbly ask how old you are? as I think younger viewers may be more inclined to readily embrace HFR because they haven’t become so ‘24fps jaded’, so to speak…which unfortunately I am, but will try to work on.

Penton-Man,

Unfornuately, I don't know what type/brand of projector they were using but I might go back later today to get the answer. A curious thing though about my screening was that the film cropped to scope right but the screen was in 16X9. They never fixed it. And while the film played as it should, in scope, we had the customary black bars at the top. I'm curious to know if it was a mistake or something they had to do for 48fps in 3D.

I'm turning 34 in 15 days. As for the jaded part, I'm glad you mentioned that. I immediately went home and watched the two trailers for the Hobbit on my television and watched portions of the Fellowship of the Ring EE on BD as well just to see if I would have a negative reaction to going back to 24fps. All is well. It didn't bother me in the slightest. Looking at the Hobbit at 24fps was a tad jarring for about 20 seconds but I didn't have a problem with it at all.

Also, it took about 6 to 8 minutes to get use to the frame rate. About the time they flashback to young Bilbo, I had pretty much gotten use to it by then. A couple of times, I took my glasses off to get a peak at what 48fps would be like in 2D (which is what I'm very curious about), and it seemed okay to me. Granted, it wasn't crystal clear but I think I would've been fine with it.

On the whole though, just a wonderful, wonderful visual experience. The best 3D I've ever had. Sadly, I wish the film was better, because had it been, this might have been the best theatre experience I'd ever had.

I am very, very curious to see where this goes. I'm kind of hotly anticipating Avatar now with the idea that Cameron's doing higher frame rates for the sequels. And I loathe the first film....

I don't know if 48fps is the future for all cinema. But for 3D, sign me right the hell up.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Good to see that IMDB confirms what I’ve been saying from the get-go concerning the digital master.

I heard they're not too reliable.

Are there any sites that have that type of information accurately?

EDIT-

Jumpman, i think you might've convinced me to check out The Hobbit in 48/3D. Though i'm not expecting a revelation like you cause that frame rate really turns me off and takes the movie look away.

Eh. I guess i'l try if i get a chance.

[Chevypower]

I'm totally for HFR. Hopefully OLED TVs will be able to scan native to any frame rate to avoid pulldown artifacts. I also want 17:9 true 4K TVs.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Chevypower

I'm totally for HFR. Hopefully OLED TVs will be able to scan native to any frame rate to avoid pulldown artifacts. I also want 17:9 true 4K TVs.

I would prefer that too but thats not going to happen. We're still going to use 16:9 fake 4K.

With Rec 709 still i bet. But hey! We have more pixels! Who cares about other important aspects of PQ!

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by saprano

cause that frame rate really turns me off and takes the movie look away.

Eh. I guess i'l try if i get a chance.

See, my thing is that 3D in general already did that for me. So if your going to do it in 3D, now the whole frame rate thing doesn't matter in my mind. It already isn't very "film" like in that state anyway. So I'm cool with 48 fps for 3D. I'll check it out. Definitely have more reservations about HFR in 2D.

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by saprano

I would prefer that too but thats not going to happen. We're still going to use 16:9 fake 4K.

With Rec 709 still i bet. But hey! We have more pixels! Who cares about other important aspects of PQ!

UGH! I am betting you right about Rec 709. I'm just glad Red made an attempt to do 12 bit color with RedRay. If the compression holds up this could be cool, and I hope the announcement isn't too late drive any changes on a future standard set by the BDA. My hope is that RedRay could do Rec 2020 with an update once you have displays that can really be calibrated to that. I am not an expert on colorimetry but I could see not wanting to deliver the larger gamut with the majority of displays unable to display it, or that are not calibrated to it. So my question is what does Rec 2020 do when pushed to a display or projector that can only display Rec 709? Would it screw things up or create handshake issues? Way more questions than answers now.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Penton-Man,

Unfornuately, I don't know what type/brand of projector they were using but I might go back later today to get the answer...

If by chance you happen to get access to a super-smart projectionist or a rep from one of the projector companies, I would also be interested in knowing if the venue has a Sony 4K projector or a DLP-based 3D system projector system (such as Dolby, XpanD or RealD) which typically triple flash.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

I heard they're (IMDB) not too reliable.

Overall, I would say that they are reliable but not infallible, as I, myself, have pointed out on more than one occasion in the past and which I think prompted someone, somewhere associated with the respective production to sometimes correct the errors or to be more accurate, i.e. The Karate Kid (2010), Machine Gun Preacher, The Amazing Spider-Man....

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=333

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...db#post6710239

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...db#post6433814

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

Are there any sites that have that type of information accurately?

Great question!

Yes, there’s a guy named Penton-Man who still maintains some personal contacts in the industry, serving both as a Retired inside-er…
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ld#post6864918

and as a deductive reason-er…
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ne#post6867887

on a site called Blu-ray.com

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If by chance you happen to get access to a super-smart projectionist or a rep from one of the projector companies, I would also be interested in knowing if the venue has a Sony 4K projector or a DLP-based 3D system projector system (such as Dolby, XpanD or RealD) which typically triple flash.

DLP based 3D system. That I do know...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

See, my thing is that 3D in general already did that for me. So if your going to do it in 3D, now the whole frame rate thing doesn't matter in my mind. It already isn't very "film" like in that state anyway. So I'm cool with 48 fps for 3D. I'll check it out....

Something else to keep in mind is that HFR (considering frame rate and shutter angle) will allow the filmmaker to produce brighter 3D than you can achieve with 24 fps 180 degree shutter 3D.

And the exhibition of brighter 3D has been a major priority by everyone in the 3D motion picture business because the general consensus is (and rightfully so) is that dim 3D presentations cause even *normal* viewers to strain their eyes when viewing stereoscopic content for 2 hours or more, not to mention, the obvious drawback of there being just too damn dark of picture to appreciate the movie, in the first place.

But, on an esoteric technical note, the increased brightness does come at a tradeoff because it will make some artifacts more noticeable, in particular flicker, which then has to be dealt with. Humans are more sensitive to flicker with their peripheral vision rather than their central vision (which, as an aside, I see often described as ‘fovea’ vision when that is not completely accurate because many folks with ERMs (epiretinal membranes) don’t have much of a ‘fovea’ to begin with, so a better descriptor when describing this would be ‘macular’ vision). Anyway, I’m getting away from myself.

In pursuit of trying to eradicate all flicker, there is a senior research engineer at NHK who believes that you need ~ 65 fps exhibition…and maybe even up to 80 fps for widescreen venues.

Bottom line though, brighter is better, and for the time being, HFR may be the only practical way for filmmakers and exhibitors to achieve that. You’ve got to be more careful during production and post not to blow out the highlights though.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

UGH! I am betting you right about Rec 709. I'm just glad Red made an attempt to do 12 bit color with RedRay. If the compression holds up this could be cool, and I hope the announcement isn't too late drive any changes on a future standard set by the BDA. My hope is that RedRay could do Rec 2020 with an update once you have displays that can really be calibrated to that. I am not an expert on colorimetry...

Arguably the most ‘elite’ of the ‘elite’ who concern themselves with the Visual Spectrum and how it relates to the motion picture business is a rather small group of only about 16 color scientists who meet at the Academy (AMPAS) on about a monthy basis to discuss things like ACES –

http://www.oscars.org/science-techno...ts/pdf/iif.pdf

The upside to such a small group?
Parking spaces are readily available on the lot.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by saprano

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/technical

Am i reading that wrong?

"2K master format"

It's not wrong: I think the CGI was done at 2K and so the final digital intermediate was done at 2K: Remember 4K 3D doesn't exist yet

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Arguably the most ‘elite’ of the ‘elite’ who concern themselves with the Visual Spectrum and how it relates to the motion picture business is a rather small group of only about 16 color scientists who meet at the Academy (AMPAS) on about a monthy basis to discuss things like ACES –

http://www.oscars.org/science-techno...ts/pdf/iif.pdf

The upside to such a small group?
Parking spaces are readily available on the lot.

Penton, you always post the most interesting stuff. That one went way over my head but I can definately see where they are trying to go in terms of goals associated with that project. I have no clue if any of that will trickle down to what we ever see on the consumer side of things.

I know the ITU-R defined the color space for UHD to be Rec 2020, but really if you read anything about the International Telecommunication Union lately you kinda find that they make a lot of recommendations that are often completely ignored. Some of it seems like hot air.

For instance, a TOTALLY separate issue, but look at how they are trying to nail down web standards in terms of internet governance, security with regards to ISP's and telecomms to little avail. Then they are surprised when the US, and several countries just completely walk away from the table on such negotiations. So, I find myself taking ITU recommendations with a lot of salt now as it seems like they are a much smaller player than in the past.

In the end, its clear the real hope is just for some improvements with 4K beyond pixel density.


Side note: I had a friend who is in video production that recently posted about Hobbit in 48 fps on Facebook. His reaction was conflicted. He loves 24fps traditional 2D, he isn't a huge 3D fan, but he too thought 48 fps completely brought another level to the 3D presentation. His exact words were "it made it so realistic that it was almost distracting. It took me nearly two hours to get used to it". So yeah, now I have to see this thing in 48 fps 3D somewhere. I can't comment on 3D or anything one way or the other till I do.

[victortubeman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Regarding this…https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...18#post6864918

Do people realize, given current technology, how long it takes just to render ONE typically layered VFX/CGI frame at 4K for a 4K DSM (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...96#post6851596 ) ?

2k Vfx in spiderman got it down to 10hrs/frame from 30hrs/frame.

http://www.fxguide.com/featured/spid...s-and-lizards/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

It's not wrong: I think the CGI was done at 2K and so the final digital intermediate was done at 2K: Remember 4K 3D doesn't exist yet

As allowed by the DCI DCSS (Digital Cinema System Specification).

But it sure as hell exists in the RED realm, according to my RED friends, e.g.
‘Notable features….Network Based 4K 3D playback system"...

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1354392330.jpg

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

Penton, you always post the most interesting stuff....

And I haven’t even gotten around to posting a pic of my dislocated finger yet, as I’ve first got to paint out all the personal identification data , e.g. name, age, name of medical institution listed on the x-ray.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by victortubeman

2k Vfx in spiderman got it down to 10hrs/frame from 30hrs/frame.
http://www.fxguide.com/featured/spid...s-and-lizards/

There certainly is a lot revealed in that article, dad nab-it!
Is nothing secret anymore in the motion picture business, now with the world wide web?

I challenge anyone to discover what film this year was released with 96K audio (by Sony) in a theater. Try that one on for size.

[Steedeel]

Flowers Of War penton man?