REDRAY 4K Player Unveiled.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Spicoli

REDRAY from the company that makes the RED camera has the first 4k media player. Looks to do what Blu can't .

Thoughts?...

Excuse me if I don’t retype things from over a month ago when the announcement came out and was reported on this forum but, nevertheless, start about here….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...gm#post6818119

and scan through the following pages for more thoughts from me and other members, up to about here…
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ce#post6954858

In terms of the later ^ (and vargo should love this), originally, that last ODEMAX link had timelines regarding availability (to distributors and consumers). Namely, something like this was originally listed on that ODEMAX page….

”Distributor Access – Jan. 2013
Home and Theatrical Service – March 2013”

Now, I notice that particular information has been removed from that webpage.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Prox

Here's the part I'm iffy on:...

Also, I just don't get the six HDMI out thing. How would this actually be used/wired up?

Some of the early 4K tvs need 4 HDMI 1.3 cables to connect to RED’s player. The newer (and better) 4K tvs use one HDMI 1.4 cable.

Whether congratulatory or dismissive of the RED effort, as this being a physical media forum, to be fair, one has to applaud the fact that the player has physical delivery built-in (USB stick or SD card), despite the encumberment of obvious rights and protection management.

The technical nuance of which I would personally like more information is in regards to the RED laser projector (pro model), for its claimed ability to play DCPs, that being a rather BIG deal….at least to other competitors. The RED team has been very guarded in their responses to this particular feature on the Q & A thread which they started over on their forum at the time of the announcement(s).

But whenever the projector actually does ship, there should be no delay in actually testing out the claim, almost immediately, with the availability of this free download (Dec. 16, 2011 news entry at the top of the page, as of today), which can be used and distributed freely for both commercial and private use….

http://www.sintel.org/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wormraper

ding ding ding, we have a winner!!!!, no way has HVEC that much better. I can see 20-25 mbps, but 10???? not unless you REALLY want it to look like a Divx file

For HEVC, the French achieved 16.5 mbps for bitrate identical (to H.264/AVC) PSNR. See…
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ch#post6827608

Also, keep in mind that PSNR is an objective measurement. Subjective testing (and people do view movies subjectively, rather than with data analysis, waveforms, scopes, etc.) have shown even further efficiency in bitrate … http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/18...SPIE2012_1.pdf

Because, amongst other things, it is believed by investigators that PSNR does not take into account the saturation effect of the human visual system.

[zx_6r]

double sided 2 layer bd = 100Gb - would that work?

[Brightstar]

How would old movies look in 4k ?

[DealsR4theDevil]

Originally Posted by joliefan

How would old movies look in 4k ?

Good question, bump.

[ack_bak]

Originally Posted by DealsR4theDevil

Good question, bump.

If they were properly mastered, I would think they would look very good.

I am on the fence with 4K technology right now. I think the verdict it still out if it will actually be viable for home video or not. Hell, I have neighbors that bought brand new 60" 3D plasma HDTV's for Christmas that tried to hook everything up with composite cables.. Luckily for them I have a stash of Monoprice HDMI cables laying around and problem solved

Then I had to beg them to pickup a Blu-Ray player since all they had was a really crappy DVD player that was probably $20 5 years ago...

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by joliefan

How would old movies look in 4k ?

Old movies would look outstanding if they got a 4K scan like many classic movies have already gotten.

[morkys]

I already went through the dvd to bd thing. I bought HD-dvd first and ditched that for bd. How long before BD becomes the beta of formats and we're left with dvd and Redray? I personally don't want redray and 4k because although it is "better"...I have seen 1080p bd on a projector screen at home and it's good enough for me, better than DVD on a projector. DVD upscaled looks good, but bd does look better.

Should I stop buying bluray and wait for redray?
I don't want to for one very simple reason. I don't want to wait. I want to collect older movies now and watch them.

What are you doing?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by morkys

I already went through the dvd to bd thing. I bought HD-dvd first and ditched that for bd. How long before BD becomes the beta of formats and we're left with dvd and Redray? I personally don't want redray and 4k because although it is "better"...I have seen 1080p bd on a projector screen at home and it's good enough for me, better than DVD on a projector. DVD upscaled looks good, but bd does look better.

Should I stop buying bluray and wait for redray?
I don't want to for one very simple reason. I don't want to wait. I want to collect older movies now and watch them.

What are you doing?

everything will ALWAYS be replaced. come to grips with that and collect what you want, when you want.

[pagemaster]

It will happen any day now

[ack_bak]

Originally Posted by wormraper

everything will ALWAYS be replaced. come to grips with that and collect what you want, when you want.

This. I am someone that would actually benefit from 4K as I sit 12' from a 125" screen. I tend to be an early adopter (bought both HD DVD and BD) but I am just not sold on Redray becoming the next big thing. There is no certainty there until all the studios and the rest of the CE's rally around it.

I think we are looking at years before 4K projectors/TV's, players, and media became affordable for mass consumption and, even then, I am not sure we will see the scale of releases for 4K that we even have for Blu-Ray.

Too many uknowns right now, and I will just continue to buy Blu-Ray until the industry settles on a 4K standard and the future is more clear. It could be a year or two, or it could be much longer.

[Blu-Benny]

i'll adopt redray when it's affordable and keep collection blu-ray in the meantime.

[ZoetMB]

Redray is not replacing Blu-ray ever. That's not to say that there won't be a home format for 4K (or even 8K), but Redray is a proprietary format that was designed without input from other studios.

If there is ever a home format for 4K or higher, Redray won't be it.

Red is a company that deals with a niche product sold mostly to professional users. That's a completely different business model than the business that Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Samsung or even OPPO is in.

As others have stated, formats always get updated. And if you always wait, you collect nothing. If you're always going to be concerned that the format you're currently collecting is to become obsolete, then maybe you're better off streaming. Because even if 4K comes, eventually they'll be 8K. But even if those formats come along, it doesn't mean that the studios are going to rescan and remaster their content. If they've already scanned in 4K, they'll re-release, otherwise, it will be upscaling.

Even today, according to Home Media Magazine, in 2012 in the U.S., DVD still held a 73.3% physical market share in dollars. Blu-ray rose only 8.55% over 2011. My prediction is that 4K content doesn't get above an 8% market share for ten years.

[ack_bak]

http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

I found this useful. I just don't see most people being able to fully appreciate 4K. I see it being a market mostly for videophiles with large screens who have money to spend. I can see Laser Disc type pricing for 4K content and gear (meaning, I don't see $4-12 catalog titles being the norm, or $18-25 for most new releases).

Face it folks, DVD spoiled us on pricing, and studios/retailers have pretty much been forced to price Blu-Ray similarly. I am not convinced at all that 4K would follow this trend in pricing.

I think we will see lots of psuedo type 4K being pushed via streaming which will mostly be upconverted content.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by joliefan

How would old movies look in 4k ?

I’m not sure if there is a definitive answer at this time….at least in terms of ‘how good’.

Indications from the RED team partners are that they will look fine even on theatrical-sized screens, or else they wouldn’t be promoting that feature, e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ce#post6954858

However, the proof is in the pudding and I don’t know if Jim et. al. have, as of yet, ever shown anything other than relatively noiseless digital source through their REDRAY players. Why is that an important consideration? Because grain stresses a codec more than a ‘clean’ digital source, as does other random input data…
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ess#post690593

I would like to see how the RED codec performs in 4K at their prescribed bitrate with something challenging like the waterfall scene in Last of the Mohicans.

[I-C-Blue]

I'm very content with blu-ray. I treat it as if it's the ultimate home video medium though in the back of my head, I know something greater will eventually come along. Still, with the amount I invested, I don't see myself investing in 4k any time soon like how some people have yet to adopt to blu-ray from DVDs. I can however see that disc-based mediums will go away altogether completely with streaming becoming the norm, which kinda scares me.

My biggest concern in giving in to 4k would be Disney titles that goes on moratorium. I know once they release that, I'm gonna go for it regardless of what I say.

[Flatnate]

The real question is "what kind of content will actually end up on odemax.com for download?"

[Petra_Kalbrain]

It will develop a sufficient market base to survive, but I don't believe that it will ever replace/outsell Blu-ray.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by morkys

I already went through the dvd to bd thing. I bought HD-dvd first and ditched that for bd. How long before BD becomes the beta of formats and we're left with dvd and Redray? I personally don't want redray and 4k because although it is "better"...I have seen 1080p bd on a projector screen at home and it's good enough for me, better than DVD on a projector. DVD upscaled looks good, but bd does look better.

Should I stop buying bluray and wait for redray?
I don't want to for one very simple reason. I don't want to wait. I want to collect older movies now and watch them.

What are you doing?

It will never be "DVD and redray". DVD is not going to outlive bluray. If bluray gets "demoted", then so be it, but its fate goes hand-in-hand with DVD. They are the disc formats, as long as disc players are around, they will both be around. If blu-ray dies, then it will be because disc media died, and DVD will go with it.

Bluray will never be "beta", because beta never really got adopted. Industry doesn't spend money on legacy support of hardware that nobody owns, unless it is at very high cost passed on to the consumer, (just look into what it costs to get a quality phonograph, or laserdisc player nowdays). Beta and HD-DVD are not "obsolete" formats, they are failed formats, they were dead on the launchpad.

Redray disc does not really exist. 4k is a hard-disk format, that may someday be delivered by internet or expensive media devices like thumb drives and solid state drives.

If you are afraid of your video collection becoming obsolete, I recommend you stop collecting videos: no matter what format you buy, it will eventually be superceded.

I think your fear of "redray" and 4k is premature. It was hard enough getting the market to accept a small increase in price connected to adopting blu-ray, it took almost 3 years to move it past the perception of "expensive high-end niche product". Hard enough to convince consumers that they needed 1080p, new TVs, etc. If "redray" is pushed to market at this point, it will be doomed to permanently claim a "high-end niche" label.

Look, there are already people out there with more money than they know what to do with, who have been watching their movies in higher res than bluray for some years now. That was never a threat to bluray, and neither is this.

"Redray" will render bluray obsolete the day that people can get their 4k large-screen for $2000, their player for $120, and their media for under $20... not to mention, wide availability of said media. Right now, some of those are several orders of magnitude off. I think blu-ray will "scale up" in a revised blu-ray generation coming very soon, before it's replaced by the next thing. Blu-ray is still years away from being "replaced", and even further from being rendered substandard and useless.

The best part about bluray, is that for most movies from the last century, bluray is completely adequate for an archival copy of your film. You will never need a 4K scan of most of those movies... there very well may never be 4K scans for most 20th century films. It's bad enough that after 6.5 years, I still can't get even half of the 20th century films that I want on bluray. Keep your video library, like you should keep your books and your old photos.

My advice? Keep buying blu-rays until something better is widely available at a reasonable price. Which, I think, is still 5 years away.