4K Movies Releases

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I just hope that the presence of over a million (and counting) devices out there which has a restrictive hardware interface (when it could be rightly argued that even true HDMI 2.0 is not adequate for UHD for the next 7 years)….won’t give content providers a *behind-the-scenes* excuse to hamstring content offerings to 4K/60 8 bit/4:2:0 for a looong time.

Some developer insiders are perplexed about the whole Playstation thing because they know that the beta-versions of the PS4 could play 4K at traditional movie frame rates and don’t quite understand why 4K support for media playback was not enabled with the ‘shipped’ devices.

Two possibilities come to mind….
1. 4K support within the device is not complete, or-
2. It is complete and consumers are being intentionally locked out.

If the later possibility someday proves to be true then I think some business-types will speculate that it was done in order not to undermine puck (FMP-X1) sales…..at least for the time being.

FMP-X1 or PS4, i don't see what would be the big deal. Both are made by Sony. They would get sales$$$ either way. And the end goal would be the same; mass adoption of 4K. The PS4 just makes that easier.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, I think that some people (like Sap who started the discussion) believed [based upon previous public comments from high-ranking Sony executive(s)] that the PS4 would openly support 4K media playback (movies, Youtube clips) ….with the reasonable assumption that feature would be offered from the get-go at launch.

At the very least, as an aside, it has spurred some relevant adjunctive comments about HDMI interface and UHD parameters.

I’m not really a gamer, so someone will have to enlighten me as to how many real PS4 games are available now? Also, for those that follow this thread and the PS4 gamer threads here on this forum (which I don’t), can anyone tell me if before they installed the 1.5 update for their PS4’s, did they notice if their 4K TVs synched to 4K for a second before down-rezing to 1080p?

P.S.
Anthony , I hope this means that we’re still able to talk a little about HDR perceptual coding 'in a 4K thread' even though no real HDR media is available. Because, point is, it offers greater picture quality improvement than does 1080p -> 4K at the same data rate.

I think over 20 PS4 games are currently available.


Are you saying before the update it was 4K enabled? Mark Cerny was asked about 4K in an interview and i think he said he could make the dashboard 4K but that would take too much bandwidth away from developers. I'll try to find it.

EDIT-

Found it

He reveals that even though the PS4 won’t play games in 4k resolution that the UI of the console could display in that resolution if Sony wants to do so. The reason why they aren’t going for 4k resolution in games is because it takes up a lot of bandwidth and that a 4k version of the PS4 UI would be 10GB. Cerny explains it better by saying:

Considering only purely memory bandwidth, at 4K, to ensure the display buffer of the two screens, the second requires bandwidth 10GB / simply. It also is just to display only!

http://gimmegimmegames.com/2013/03/p...om-mark-cerny/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

Are you saying before the update it was 4K enabled?

No, I’m saying that with the launch release firmware (prior to one installing the 1.5 update) there seemed to be evidence that 4k video support capability is currently present on the device(and has been disabled)…which would favor the 2nd possibility described back here on the last page – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2+#post8417670

but, after you install the 1.5 update, that ‘evidence’ is no longer apparent as there is no hiccup so it would be fruitless for consumers to look for it. So, I was just trying to give owners a heads-up to watch out for something before doing the update to their PS4s.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

Mark Cerny was asked about 4K in an interview...

Yes, 4k resolution for games would be difficult.

This is more akin to what I thought you (and others) were thinking about when initiating the PS4/4K discussion..."Speaking with The Verge, Sony COO Phil Molyneux said that the PlayStation 4 will support the Sony Entertainment Network’s “world’s first” 4K resolution movie service" - http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/playstation-4-won/

And if memory serves, I believe that Shuhei Yoshida also confirmed PS4 4k video output to reporter types several months ago. I'll see if I can quickly find a link before I hit the sack.

[Penton-Man]

^
http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/21/401...k-output-games

[Canada]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes, 4k resolution for games would be difficult.

This is more akin to what I thought you (and others) were thinking about when initiating the PS4/4K discussion..."Speaking with The Verge, Sony COO Phil Molyneux said that the PlayStation 4 will support the Sony Entertainment Network’s “world’s first” 4K resolution movie service" - http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/playstation-4-won/

And if memory serves, I believe that Shuhei Yoshida also confirmed PS4 4k video output to reporter types several months ago. I'll see if I can quickly find a link before I hit the sack.

From listening to what Joe Kane said on Home Theater Geeks you can do 4K on 100 gb disks but that will probably be 8 bit 4:2:0, but he's hoping for at 12 bit 4:4:4. We will probably need a lot more space than 100 gigs of 12 bit 4:4:4. Joe Kane was saying 12 bit 4:4:4 could actually save space because doing 4:4:4 will introduce a lot less artifacts than 4:2:0

[Penton-Man]

Well, as was indicted to you back here….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...oe#post8378988 , Joe says a lot of things. In that same interview, he also apparently thinks that Dolby’s HDR research is only/solely about specular highlights, which it is not.

But I do like his notion that with the next generation home media format, consumers need/deserve something more than 4K/8 bit/4:2:0. Putting aside the ‘total space’ requirement for a moment, without HDMI 2.0 silicon, the PS4 (and other devices for that matter) can’t transport 12 bit 4:4:4 anyway - even if such home media content were produced. I find that to be more concerning, i.e. we first need to put the horse in front of the cart so to speak.

P.S.
Next time there is another one of those talk shows with Joe, somebody should ask him if he thinks 4K/8 bit/4:4:4 @60fps looks better or worse with real world material than 4K/12 bit/4:2:2 @60fps because that’s the practical consideration for sports, documentaries, etc. that content providers will be working under with true HDMI 2.0 interface.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

i.e. we first need to put the horse in front of the cart so to speak.

For example, even though there is not yet any finished 2K 3D @ 60fps feature film right now, current D-Cinema equipment (namely servers including Christie IMB, Doremi IMB, Dolby IMB/Legacy, Qube IMB, Sony, and GDC IMB…..and projectors including Sony, Christie Series 2 and NEC Series 2) can now handle 2K 3D @60fps so, if Jim Cameron or anyone else desires to produce content in that format, the display equipment is not a bottleneck to that endeavor…..and they can have at it.

I mean the major reason why Park Road Post chose to produce The Hobbit last year @48fps (and not 60fps) was because it wouldn’t have been possible to make D-Cinema theaters 60fps capable in time for The Hobbit’s release date in Dec. 2012.

[vargo]

The HEVC consumer profiles are Main and Main 10. That's what your typical set top box chipset will support (cheaper or early devices Main only). Main 10 allows 10-bit 4:2:0. That's all we're going to get in the near future.

Main 12 and above are not for consumers. Same way that H.264 Hi10P was not for consumers (except anime pirates )

By the time all these things get decided and there is a road map for improved home video (beyond simple resolution increase) PS4 will be near the end of it's life anyway. I really wouldn't get too worried about it. All in good time.

[joie]

" ... It Happened One Night is now available on Sony Entertainment Network's Unlimited 4K download service. The Video Unlimited 4K download service is accessible when using the Sony 4K Ultra HD Media Player (FMP-X1) with Sony XBR-55X900 and XBR-65X900A Ultra HD TVs and the soon to be shipping XBR-55X850A and XBR-65X850A models. ..." -- Colorworks Completes Brilliant 4K Restoration of Frank Capra Classic "It Happened One Night"

[Penton-Man]

^
I know I’ve read the words “painstaking” and “lovingly” many times before in regards to people describing the work on a film restoration but, not really sure if I’ve read both in the same phrase at the same time. This may be a first.

For some perspective to publicists -
Painstaking = standing in an operating room for over 6 hours straight (with perhaps having had an hour or two of sleep in the past 24 hours) while maintaining the sterile field and giving total concentration to the task at hand, unable to go to the bathroom even though nature is calling and starting to develop a cramp in one of your limbs during an intricate part of the procedure…..and nobody outside the O.R. ever hearing about it. Note to Anthony: I also watch the show Grey’s Anatomy.

P.S.
Since many seem to be preoccupied with the differences in horizontal resolution between “4K’ and UHD”, anyone know what the exact resolution (in particular, the vertical resolution) of a 4K scan of an entire 35mm film frame is?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by vargo

...Main 12 and above are not for consumers.

Well I think that’s because they contain new tools for multiview and scalability which aren’t needed for consumer applications but, since you’ve chimed in on HEVC (PS4 Hdmi hardware predicted obsolescence aside), do you think that it will take 7 years??????? for JCT-VC to create a new extended ‘consumer’ profile (above Main 10) beyond 4:2:0 chroma format and/or bit-depths beyond 10 bits for use with UHD-1 displays?

And where do think the 'consumer' profile will eventually settle out in terms of chroma format and bit depth?

[Penton-Man]

Competing codecs - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/youtu...1311203451.htm

In regards to HEVC licensing structure ( https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ng#post8356203 ), in contrast to the 7 figure cap for the use of H.264, expect an 8 figure cap….i.e. at least $15,000,000 for HEVC use before all is said and done.

[vargo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well I think that’s because they contain new tools for multiview and scalability which aren’t needed for consumer applications but, since you’ve chimed in on HEVC (PS4 Hdmi hardware predicted obsolescence aside), do you think that it will take 7 years??????? for JCT-VC to create a new extended ‘consumer’ profile (above Main 10) beyond 4:2:0 chroma format and/or bit-depths beyond 10 bits for use with UHD-1 displays?

And where do think the 'consumer' profile will eventually settle out in terms of chroma format and bit depth?

The chipset lead time is such that if there is an industry-wide plan to bring something capable of decoding above Main10 to consumers, we'll know about it significantly in advance.

If we hear a rumour about it today, it's at least a couple of years away from market.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by vargo

The chipset lead time is such that if there is an industry-wide plan to bring something capable of decoding above Main10 to consumers, we'll know about it significantly in advance.

If we hear a rumour about it today, it's at least a couple of years away from market.

I think everyone reading realizes that basic logistics. Let me rephrase then using your generic response. Do you think we’ll hear a solid rumor about an industry-wide plan to bring something capable of decoding above Main10 to consumers for UHDTV-1 before 5 years time (5+2 = 7)….and what do you think the 'consumer' profile will eventually settle out to be in terms of chroma format and bit depth?

Heck, Canada’s Joe Kane, if nobody else, would be interested in your assessment. C’mon varg, speculative opinion is the nectar of audio/video forum-dom. Even some professionals (the last panelist) do it a little when urged about HEVC and Blu-ray ( http://www.ericsson.com/televisionar...usses-hevc-an/ ) < note to Steed, you might not want to watch this for it could possibly precipitate a heart attack…..Ray, it’s o.k. for you.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I think everyone reading realizes that basic logistics. Let me rephrase then using your generic response. Do you think we’ll hear a solid rumor about an industry-wide plan to bring something capable of decoding above Main10 to consumers for UHDTV-1 before 5 years time (5+2 = 7)….and what do you think the 'consumer' profile will eventually settle out to be in terms of chroma format and bit depth?

Heck, Canada’s Joe Kane, if nobody else, would be interested in your assessment. C’mon varg, speculative opinion is the nectar of audio/video forum-dom. Even some professionals (the last panelist) do it a little when urged about HEVC and Blu-ray ( http://www.ericsson.com/televisionar...usses-hevc-an/ ) < note to Steed, you might not want to watch this for it could possibly precipitate a heart attack…..Ray, it’s o.k. for you.

Worrying. I get the feeling it might be 'knocked on the head for good'. Sigh

[vargo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Do you think we’ll hear a solid rumor about an industry-wide plan to bring something capable of decoding above Main10 to consumers for UHDTV-1 before 5 years time (5+2 = 7)

No. In my opinion the timeframe is just too short for so many advancements to come at once.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, I think that some people (like Sap who started the discussion) believed [based upon previous public comments from high-ranking Sony executive(s)] that the PS4 would openly support 4K media playback (movies, Youtube clips) ….with the reasonable assumption that feature would be offered from the get-go at launch.

well I don't have a 4k display, but Sony had talked about pictures and still images, I don't think they ever said movies. My point , to put it simply, is I can understand why someone would say "where is 3D BD on the PS4" but not "where is 4k BD on the PS4" since there is no 4k BD. Now I guess they could, maybe, add their own 4K D system (don't know if they did) buy that would cannibalize their own server sales and there are people that have already filled up their HDD with games. 500GB looks like a lot but when the files are 40GB (many games are in that range) and even larger 4k movies it fills up fast.

I’m not really a gamer, so someone will have to enlighten me as to how many real PS4 games are available now?

don't know, I bought two and have yet to DL any of the free games on PS+. That will be good enough for me for a while. I never understand people being overly concerned with numbers. The only question should be is there enough titles that interest you for you to have fun.

Anthony , I hope this means that we’re still able to talk a little about HDR perceptual coding 'in a 4K thread' even though no real HDR media is available. Because, point is, it offers greater picture quality improvement than does 1080p -> 4K at the same data rate.

seriously. My point was not that we can't talk about if the PS4 will eventually support 4k (or anything else) but people being concerned that it did not support a format that does not exist at launch.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by saprano

FMP-X1 or PS4, i don't see what would be the big deal. Both are made by Sony. They would get sales$$$ either way. And the end goal would be the same; mass adoption of 4K. The PS4 just makes that easier.

But you are missing the obvious. The PS4 is a game console and sold at a loss, I would guess the puck is sold with reasonable margins. Also un-like the PS3, where BD was critical for gaming (it meant that there could be games like the last of us that was over 40GB), 4k movies add nothing to game play. Also, like you said "the end goal would be the same", Joe that buys a PS4 and has it hooked up to his 1080p TV won't rent the 4k movies, while Bill that went out and paid big bucks for the Sony 4K TV will most likely pay for the puck and buy/rent those films, so all you did is give him a much cheaper solution where you loose money with every machine sold for that purpose instead of making money. In a few years when 4K TVs are cheaper and in more homes and is no longer an elite product, would be the right time to add 4k to the PS4 to help 4k grow. At this point the only thing it will do is cannibalize Sony's profit margins.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

well I don't have a 4k display, but Sony had talked about pictures and still images, I don't think they ever said movies. My point , to put it simply, is I can understand why someone would say "where is 3D BD on the PS4" but not "where is 4k BD on the PS4" since there is no 4k BD. Now I guess they could, maybe, add their own 4K D system (don't know if they did) buy that would cannibalize their own server sales and there are people that have already filled up their HDD with games. 500GB looks like a lot but when the files are 40GB (many games are in that range) and even larger 4k movies it fills up fast.

I see you’re point but I don’t think Sap ever mentioned 4KBD. He said ‘4k support’ for movies… in essence, 4k video playback capability. Ergo, from the widespread ‘official’ reporting at the time (see posts #2125 and #2126 on the last page) plus reports like “however (Sony Computer Entertainment of America CEO Jack Tretton) confirmed one question from last night to Polygon: while 4K output isn't supported for games, media like photos or video can be played back in ultra-high definition, making the PlayStation 4 one piece of a more general Sony push for 4K” (http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/21/40...ent/in/3774815 ).

I think it’s reasonable to assume that many potential PS4 buyers around the world got the impression that the device would do more than 4k stills….and serve as another vehicle, in addition to the puck, having accessibility to the 4k download service.

As far as HDD space and all, I haven’t tried it but I’m pretty sure if you purchase a 4k movie thru the puck and even later erase it from your hard drive, you can still download it again, if need be, without paying for it again. So, it’s not like you would have to keep the movies on your puck ( or PS4) for perpetuity < lol, that’s a whole lot of ‘p’s in that last phrase.