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Old 12-15-2013, 03:25 PM   #2281
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post
I suspect it will actually be neither a competitor nor an enabler. I think 4K will be pushed through to lower price points via LCD panels over the next 1-2 years. OLED will command the premium during that time as production ramps/scales, at which point the future will be 4K OLED panels as they approach price parity (maybe 2-5 years out). I think 2K OLED will be minimal.
could not have said it better myself

Quote:
I have little to no interest in streaming large 4K files. Give it to me on disc, or I'll pass on 4K.
agree (or even DL such large files and need to store them)
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Old 12-15-2013, 07:00 PM   #2282
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When will we see 4K broadcast if ever?
I believe 4K broadcast will happen but, it will take time.

There are several challenges which need to be overcome, such as, on the production side, a single link interface (rather than the current quad SDI solution) but, this is being worked on within the SMPTE. So, it’s not like people aren’t considering these problems now and looking towards the future.

4K VOD and IPTV will precede broadcast 4K because it is easier (and cheaper) to implement.
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Old 12-15-2013, 07:09 PM   #2283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post
I suspect it will actually be neither a competitor nor an enabler...
In a nutshell, my feeling is that in the short term, OLED will be a competitor (but, not much of one) for the consumer dollar….meaning only knowledgeable consumers with discerning taste (and WAF requirement) and deep pockets will pull the trigger on an OLED tv (full HD) as opposed to a 4K LCD when they are in the market for a new, cutting-edge flat panel.

However,

In the long term, with the passage of time, unless another better (than LCD) display technology comes along, and ‘better’ includes efficiency in regards to power consumption, OLED should become an enabler (and a strong one at that) of 4K for which JoeQpublic will embrace.

I’ll explain what I mean in a little more detail some other day. But, for the time being, in that regard, one (and there are more, namely, the ability to achieve Rec.2020 colorimetry) contributing factor to the point I’m trying to make is that HDR will need OLED to work. As a news aside, a neutral lab (not one with commercial affiliation) plans to conduct testing on the value, data rate requirement, etc. of HDR in January.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:29 PM   #2284
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
I believe 4K broadcast will happen but, it will take time.
I think, if ever it will take a real long time. the issues I see are

Cable/sat

there is a reason 1080p is barely there, they would rather have a larger number of stations because that means more revenue. Alos if we assume they move to HVEC that would require people getting new set-top boxes.

OTA

it will require broadcasters get new broadcasting equipment and people new TVs (or converter boxes) there is also the BW issue. Here in NA (not sure how it works throughout the world with all the different standards) a channel is 6MHz and in ATSC that translates to just under 20Mbps. So to add 4K would call for a major shift (as big as the one from NTSC to ATSC if not bigger).

With the NTSC to ATSC there was a big advantage for governments since ATSC meant that they could squeeze the channels together (less co-channel/adjacent channel issues) and that meant the gouvenments could appropriate some of the frequencies and sell them and make $. And it was a bit of a nightmare for them (and kept on getting pushed back. I can't magine the governments doing the same for 4k for decades unless they see a clear advantage again.

Quote:
4K VOD and IPTV will precede broadcast 4K because it is easier (and cheaper) to implement.
agree but would it be of decent quality. The ATSC channles I get broadcast a much better picture then cable, sat, VOD or IPTV and none match BD even if they all pretend to be 1080p.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:37 PM   #2285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony P View Post
I think, if ever it will take a real long time. the issues I see are...
Well, that’s probably more Wendell’s dept. than mine but, true….e.g. time = years. My information is that the soonest 4K in the world (beyond just trial services) will occur will be in 2016 with Korea and/or Japan. Other countries,…..? as to how much longer than that. But, the way I look at it is that this is a productive process and it will occur sooner than that of the lifespan of Blu-ray petering out to a niche of a niche delivery method for which it seems like nearly every other thread these days in the Blu-ray Technology and Future Technology forum is obsessed with a *Blu-ray doomsday* scenario timeline, or a variant on that sort of theme….either directly or indirectly.

4K will likely be first adopted for special events. Yes, full commercial 4K TV broadcasting will take a lot longer but I believe that limited services (premium channel) to early adopters will ensure enough success to get the ball rolling. HEVC will be needed to make it all happen, so yes to the new set -top boxes….which will require HEVC decoders. First phase decoder chips should be available in 2014, latest 2015 with the bandwidth being limited to 10 bit, 60 fps. . Decoder chips capable of doing 10 bit 120 fps are expected in the 2017/2018 timeframe. As to your “a channel is 6MHz” thing, I think 4K is technologically feasible in that it can fit within existing channel bandwidth of currently deployed HD – http://ieeexplore.ieee.org:80/Xplore...hDecision=-203

I know you are not a 4K disbeliever, in general, but for the sake of other skeptics who may be reading, the worst case scenario for 4K broadcasting fruition, or more specifically, the lack thereof, would be that the scientific testing done to improve 4K (by supplementing it with HFR, HDR and higher bit depth for instance), well, those parameters would instead be implemented into a 1080p60 broadcast service which in itself (without any higher resolution) would still be a great advancement in picture quality to what we currently have today.

So, in other words, 4K research, testing and standardization will be providing an impetus to at least making HD better.

Last edited by Penton-Man; 12-16-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:45 PM   #2286
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If you can’t get through, try searching for “Assessments of Subjective Video Quality on HEVC-Encoded 4K-UHD Video for Beyond-HDTV Broadcasting Services” or Vol.59 Issue 2 in IEEE Transactions on Broadcasting.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:49 PM   #2287
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Rec.2020
b.t.w., for those Recommendation, BT 2020 followers and quoters (http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...8-I!!PDF-E.pdf ), it has been agreed upon by involved parties to add 100 Hz to the frame frequency parameters of the original recommendation.

P.S. This wasn’t done necessarily with future cinema content in mind, but rather, sports, etc. broadcasts.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:53 PM   #2288
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4K news from the center of fulfillment studio –
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...l-Drama-Comedy
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:10 PM   #2289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
b.t.w., for those Recommendation, BT 2020 followers and quoters (http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...8-I!!PDF-E.pdf ), it has been agreed upon by involved parties to add 100 Hz to the frame frequency parameters of the original recommendation.

P.S. This wasn’t done necessarily with future cinema content in mind, but rather, sports, etc. broadcasts.
I forgot, since I discuss fps so much on this thread, Avatar sequel HFR news for those furious fanboys…http://furiousfanboys.com/2013/12/al...-in-hfr-48fps/
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:19 PM   #2290
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I forgot, since I discuss fps so much on this thread, Avatar sequel HFR news for those furious fanboys…http://furiousfanboys.com/2013/12/al...-in-hfr-48fps/
Before anyone asks if that means he might have some 48fps and 60fps 3D content mixed together in the same movie….well that (namely VFR [new acronym for some I guess) is unlikely due to technical reasons –

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...fr#post6994149
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...fr#post6998635
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:33 PM   #2291
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Hi, just wanted to wish all forum members a happy Christmas. I'm away from computers for next few days so thought I would get in early. Special regards to all on my friends list, including my football associates the Penton Man and Tob (amongst others) and thanks to the moderators for keeping me in check

All the best from the Steed.

Remember, if it ain't Blu it ain't true!
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:29 AM   #2292
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Merry Christmas Steed….and also to your family.

In your absence, I assure you that Blu-ray isn’t going anywhere, but, on the other hand, there are no guarantees that the Arsenal won’t slip from 1st in the Premier league to 4th. as the point differential is slip sliiiiidin away.
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:12 PM   #2293
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The consumer electronics industry (esp. the display manufacturers) are going to love this experiment - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:47 PM   #2294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
The consumer electronics industry (esp. the display manufacturers) are going to love this experiment - http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm
I sit 9 feet away from my 55" 4K set, so if/when we finally get some 4K content here in the UK I'll be able to appreciate it. Phew, what a relief.
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:59 PM   #2295
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
HDR
To those young scholarly types who read this thread, in regards to… “High Dynamic Range (HDR) imaging is believed to be the next frontier in imaging similar to transition from gray level to color. However, despite many recent developments there is still no standard approach for compression and quality assessment of HDR content….“ so on and so forth.

Well, if you were interested in a Ph.D. Position in HDR Imaging and Video in the beautiful city of Lausanne, Switzerland
(http://mmspg.epfl.ch/cms/op/edit/lang/en/pid/58408#! ), the deadline for submitting your C.V. was earlier this week.

You snooze, you lose.

Anyway, yesterday from The Hollywood Reporter (a fine bleeding-edge online ‘trade’ website)….date Dec. 17, 2013…..time 4:17 P.M…..”Hollywood's engineering community considering this proposal” (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...imaging-666400 )

----hmm, now where have I heard this ‘proposal’ word before?

I know, almost 2 weeks earlier here…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...al#post8493835

With an easy-to-understand refreshed pic - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...al#post8494917

And a little more background from a week ago here - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...al#post8520803

Point being, if The Hollywood Reporter is bleeding edge, what’s that make Blu-ray.com ?

Cutting edge?
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:06 PM   #2296
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I sit 9 feet away from my 55" 4K set, so if/when we finally get some 4K content here in the UK I'll be able to appreciate it. Phew, what a relief.
Someone I’ve heard speak would say “enjoy 4K TV just so long as the frog doesn't move” – I’ll explain later.

But he’s quite critical of the motion picture and TV industry in general often reminding us that despite the U.S. military complex (and they know their rez…http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...rom-20000-feet ), MIT and the U.S. computer industry all advising against it, interlace was retained as a US standard for HDTV. He essentially feels the same about the inadequacy of only 50/60Hz for 4K. Point being, bring on HFR ASAP.

Anyway, now that you are an even happier owner of 4K tv, what’s Santa getting you for Christmas or have you told him/her to hold –off with a belated gift until after CES?
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:10 PM   #2297
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I love my wife who sometimes monitors this thread and emailed me her answer to my question –
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Point being, if The Hollywood Reporter is bleeding edge, what’s that make Blu-ray.com ?

Cutting edge?
Answer from your better half…No it makes it a stealer of my Man’s time when he SHOULD be putting up the Christmas decorations outside on his day off!
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:21 PM   #2298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Someone I’ve heard speak would say “enjoy 4K TV just so long as the frog doesn't move” – I’ll explain later.

But he’s quite critical of the motion picture and TV industry in general often reminding us that despite the U.S. military complex (and they know their rez…http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...rom-20000-feet ), MIT and the U.S. computer industry all advising against it, interlace was retained as a US standard for HDTV. He essentially feels the same about the inadequacy of only 50/60Hz for 4K. Point being, bring on HFR ASAP.

Anyway, now that you are an even happier owner of 4K tv, what’s Santa getting you for Christmas or have you told him/her to hold –off with a belated gift until after CES?
Don't worry, I get exactly what your man means: increasing temporal resolution is where it's at - well, for home video anyway.

And I think you're on to something about getting a proper 1080p60 standard in place as an offshoot of all these 4K shenanigans. I've already mentioned how gaming looks silky smooth at 1080p60, it'd be great to get sports broadcast in that format, never mind 4K.

As for Santa, I've asked for 4K Blu-ray but that might have to wait for a couple of years...
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:12 AM   #2299
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
4K will likely be first adopted for special events. Yes, full commercial 4K TV broadcasting will take a lot longer but I believe that limited services (premium channel) to early adopters will ensure enough success to get the ball rolling.
I don't mean to come off as a downer, but I am not sure it would work. Look at 3D, they tried exactly that. Film the world cup in 3D (and a very limited of other special events), launch ESPN 3D to show it, make a big deal about it and what happened? people tried the service but soon realized there was not much content and got bored checking in for something new gave up on it and eventually ESPN as well.


I am not saying everything should be 4k, but, even if we are talking a limited number of channels, there needs to be a good selection of material for each of them. Or it would , IMHO, mistakenly appear that people don't care about 4K

Quote:
HEVC will be needed to make it all happen, so yes to the new set -top boxes….which will require HEVC decoders.
It is not needing it that is the issue. If itr is a new service there is nothing to say. The issue happens if a different Joe has a box and is not willing to spend to get the new one. It would be easy to say Let's replace the SD (on services that still offer it), HD and just have the 4K version of the channel. And I am sure it would be acceptable for anyone that wants 4K but what about the person happy using his old box that was paid for years ago and does not care about 4K?
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:04 PM   #2300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
As for Santa, I've asked for 4K Blu-ray but that might have to wait for a couple of years...
I thought I was setting you up with the response….”well, I plan on shooting my own 4K video”, as mentioned here - http://www.stuff.tv/netflix/netflix-...ason-2-4k/news

i.e. a 4K camcorder to shoot Crystal Palace matches while they’re in the Prem.
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