4K Movies Releases

[Esox50]

Did Santa get us a Blu-Ray 4K format, behind the scenes, for Xmas?

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Did Santa get us a Blu-Ray 4K format, behind the scenes, for Xmas?

Did he now? Hmm...

[img eL]

pg. 35 CES 2014 Conference Program

ULTRA HD CONTENT: WHAT WILL WE
WATCH IN 2014 AND BEYOND?
11 a.m.-Noon/Room N259
What’s the outlook for Ultra HD content in the consumer
market? Will Ultra HD discs and high-resolution streaming
become viable delivery options? A market overview and
forecast will kick off a lively discussion among leaders,
content programming and delivery.
Moderator: Carolyn Giardina
Contributing Tech Editor, Hollywood Reporter
Panelist: Tom Cosgrove
President and CEO, 3net Studios

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Did Santa get us a Blu-Ray 4K format, behind the scenes, for Xmas?

hah, that’s for others here to ponder but don’t get me anymore involved in that because personally, I think that consumers are deserving of at least the Blu-ray Disc Association Board of Directors be forthcoming with a progress report, perhaps not as detailed and specific as that from SMPTE in regards to UHD (which was posted and linked to back in Sept….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...te#post8153506)

but something, in order to keep the higher quality packaged media fans hopeful that things are moving along….before 4K streaming gains a strong foothold in the public consciousness.

Discerning home theater enthusiasts interested in the next generation video would appreciate that more than random consumer electronics executives and Blu-ray spokespersons throwing out a bone with a tiny piece of info-meat on it every once in awhile. I mean heck, it’s been over a year now since the format extension study task force was formed and I don’t think that any ‘official’ formal statement has been issued to the public indicating that the Board has approved an advisory committee’s recommendation to even adopt 4K Blu-ray.

A/V enthusiasts have to search for progress tidbits casually thrown out on the internet or pick up on 2nd hand hallway chatter at industry shows. With regards to 4K Blu-ray, I don't think it should be like that, because, like it or not, 4K streaming is coming and it will be a competitor to 4K BD.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Will comment later as to the results an experiment performed by a group of respected independent research labs which are well known by proactive industry professionals when discussing the range of HEVC bit rates and the quality those bit rates can achieve with 4K (2160p/50-60) material...

Different HEVC bit rates from 4Mbps-20Mbps were tested with bit rates of 12-16 Mbps deemed ‘good to excellent’ at a viewer distance of 1.5 PH (picture heights).

But, given the materials used for the experiment, a couple of considerations come to mind….

[Paul.R.S]

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

hah, that’s for others here to ponder but don’t get me anymore involved in that because personally, I think that consumers are deserving of at least the Blu-ray Disc Association Board of Directors be forthcoming with a progress report, perhaps not as detailed and specific as that from SMPTE in regards to UHD (which was posted and linked to back in Sept….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...te#post8153506)

but something, in order to keep the higher quality packaged media fans hopeful that things are moving along….before 4K streaming gains a strong foothold in the public consciousness.

Discerning home theater enthusiasts interested in the next generation video would appreciate that more than random consumer electronics executives and Blu-ray spokespersons throwing out a bone with a tiny piece of info-meat on it every once in awhile. I mean heck, it’s been over a year now since the format extension study task force was formed and I don’t think that any ‘official’ formal statement has been issued to the public indicating that the Board has approved an advisory committee’s recommendation to even adopt 4K Blu-ray.

A/V enthusiasts have to search for progress tidbits casually thrown out on the internet or pick up on 2nd hand hallway chatter at industry shows. With regards to 4K Blu-ray, I don't think it should be like that, because, like it or not, 4K streaming is coming and it will be a competitor to 4K BD.

FWIW I concur, esp with the para that begins "Discerning home theater enthusiasts interested in . . ."

On a more personal tip, I'm looking for hard info on 4k BD possibilities because it would help me reconcile two conflicting impulses/emotions regarding BD now: On the one hand, keep on buying and using the rationale that BD is the last whistle stop on the package media train before things heads up into the cloud. Grip those Twilight Timers even if they're $30.

On the other, I'm seeing notable price erosion in the used market for BD on at least Amazon Marketplace. That's where I sold 80% of my DVD collection a few years back, making enough money per disc to justify the time involved and often rolling that coin into buying BDs. If current trends continue, it is going to be even harder than it already is now in, say, two years to do that same kind of upgrading from BD to 4k BD if making a few dollars per disc in the process is any kind of priority. Prices are falling through the floor. So that points to closing the wallet and slowing down on current BD purchases.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

FWIW I concur, esp with the para that begins "Discerning home theater enthusiasts interested in . . ."

On a more personal tip, I'm looking for hard info on 4k BD possibilities because it would help me reconcile...

That does make it even tougher for economically-minded home theater enthusiasts such as yourself.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Different HEVC bit rates from 4Mbps-20Mbps were tested with bit rates of 12-16 Mbps deemed ‘good to excellent’ at a viewer distance of 1.5 PH (picture heights).

But, given the materials used for the experiment, a couple of considerations come to mind….

#1. The display used for the experiment was a 50-ish inch LCD. So, given that, question is….is 12-16 Mbps sufficient to deliver the same quality to larger 4K TVs (70 – 84”), not to mention front projection systems with larger screens or will the imagery soften, etc. when exhibited at those larger display sizes?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

LCD

^ b.t.w., there are some rather good (but expensive!) LCD monitors available out there for research labs, post houses, etc., for example - http://www.tvlogicusa.com/product/pr...model=LUM-560W

With Canon launching its own version of a reference 4K LCD in a few months….
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_...01e02480a6996f

[Megalith]

What's the deal with people thinking that there won't be 4K discs? What are they going to do, stream 4K?

[peterraes]

what i mean by "owning"?
Its' in our nature to "own" a item what we love,in this case it's a movie on physical media.
No matter if streaming becomes reliable in the future or not,i for one like to play the movie whenever i want without the slightest possibility of something "going wrong".
And with streaming there is NO way that will ever happen i feel,the problem is not the consumer,it's the provider...can i be guaranteed to watch my movies each time without interruption or whatever can go wrong during streaming?
Can annyone here honestly claim not to have issues over the internet,cause i cant....
I specifically did not mention 4K streaming for a reason,cause that is irrelevant!
the point is...streaming is not a safe way to watch whatever you like whenever you like,while physicall media is.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Different HEVC bit rates from 4Mbps-20Mbps were tested with bit rates of 12-16 Mbps deemed ‘good to excellent’ at a viewer distance of 1.5 PH (picture heights).

But, given the materials used for the experiment, a couple of considerations come to mind….

#2. For the experiment, source material consisted of several different test sequences captured with a low noise ‘4K’ digital camera which was encoded/decoded using the HEVC Reference Software HM v10.0 (http://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/).

So, question is, will first generation real time encoders be able to match such *gold standard* efficiency (and thusly deliver the same quality at that 12-16Mbps bit rate range) as the reference software, or will they require a tad more bits to do the same job?

P.S.
b.t.w., the HEVC and UHD (vanilla 4K as well as beyond HD enhancements like HFR, etc.) findings noted in this experiment as well as others intermittently mentioned over the weeks and months in past pages of this thread come from no consumer testing facility (such as Consumer Reports or cnet) but rather professional labs which have participated in various phases of beyond HD investigation including, but not limited to, Panasonic, Technicolor, BBC, and Orange Labs.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Megalith

What's the deal with people thinking that there won't be 4K discs? What are they going to do, stream 4K?

The anxiety has recently been heightened with Netflix’s 4K streaming announcement(s)…http://www.multichannel.com/blogs/ba...n-starts-clear

I think it’s safe to say that historically, streaming (and broadcasting for that matter) has used the lowest common denominator to deliver content into viewers’ homes, which is why I’m going through the #1, #2 thinking exercise as noted above with the bit rate range.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by peterraes

Its' in our nature to "own" a item what we love

Indeed, for example, I (or more precisely, wife and I) own all our real property (homes and land), OUTRIGHT rather than being an indentured servant to a mortgage company.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

But, given all the recent Dolby display publicity in the mainstream press and insights as to the next generation video proposal(s) to SMPTE mentioned here on this thread, in the meantime, do we really need fancy, expensive HDR cameras for the creation of high dynamic range material?

And what about the humongous legacy base of low-dynamic range (LDR) displays which are unable to render HDR?

^ Bright people have worked out solutions, whether it be from Max Planck…http://www.mpg.de/7478620/Dolby-HDRI-technology

Or, more recently, the Multimedia Signal Processing Group of the EPFL with regards to the JPEG file format-
http://opticalengineering.spiedigita...icleid=1730215

[doctorjackstraw]

Are films that were shot in 4k, 5k, or 35mm, but finished in 2k, permanently limited to that lower resolution? Would it be possible (or plausible) for a movie finished in 2k to eventually get a new master at 4k or higher resolution?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by doctorjackstraw

Are films that were shot in 4k, 5k, or 35mm, but finished in 2k, permanently limited to that lower resolution? Would it be possible (or plausible) for a movie finished in 2k to eventually get a new master at 4k or higher resolution?

the simple answer is yes. After all there is always the possibility of professional up-scaling, the same way there are some films that got colorized and others that got converted to 3D. Now for real 4K the answer is a bit more difficult. But if they still have the film element for 35mm or the original 4k or 5k film master any work done in 2k could in theory be re-done in 4k but that would also depend on what was done (i.e. a lot of special effects or just a 2k master with minimal touch ups).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...Or, more recently, the Multimedia Signal Processing Group of the EPFL with regards to the JPEG file format-
http://opticalengineering.spiedigita...icleid=1730215

If readers don’t have an account and/or happen to be budget-minded students, yet still are genuinely interested in advanced work then go here - http://mmspg.epfl.ch/publications and click on the pertinent article in the 2013 list in order to receive a free pdf download of the entire paper. (as I’m typing this, I think it should be the 2nd paper on the 2013 list)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Different HEVC bit rates from 4Mbps-20Mbps were tested with bit rates of 12-16 Mbps deemed ‘good to excellent’ at a viewer distance of 1.5 PH (picture heights).

But, given the materials used for the experiment, a couple of considerations come to mind….

Come to think of it, 3 considerations….

#3. The viewing participants in the study were non-expert observers, as per Section 2.5 of Rec. ITU-R BT.1788 ( http://webs.uvigo.es/servicios/bibli...1-I!!PDF-E.pdf). On the other hand, historically, I think that Blu-ray enthusiasts, in general, have been more *quality conscious* than non-expert observers (heck, even spawning spin-off hobbies like screenshot science).

So, the question becomes, is the same bit rate range (12-16 Mbps) sufficient to please Blu-ray experienced home theater enthusiasts, in terms of ‘good to excellent’ video quality?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

screenshot science)

As, an aside, fairly recent testing has confirmed the previously held consumer notion that frame grabs (still frames) significantly underestimate the quality of a video sequence as a whole. See…. “3. SUBJECTIVE STUDY OF SPATIAL AND TEMPORAL VIDEO QUALITY”, here - https://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~z70wang/pu...ons/vpqm13.pdf