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Old 05-20-2014, 04:58 AM   #3441
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
(keeping in mind there is no production or distribution or home infrastructure for 4K/120fps….yet, so we’re talking on the far horizon)
Some Euro fans of the ITU

might say, Penton, in Recommendation ITU-R B.T. 2020 - http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/...8-I!!PDF-E.pdf
no multiples of the 50 Hz frame rate, like 100Hz are specified in the frame frequency parameters. Isn’t that absence of some importance?

Well, not to worry HFR Euro folk , for as mentioned last Dec. on Blu-ray.com but not reported in the mainstream media - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...tu#post8536132

So, someday you may get Formula 1 Monaco in 4K HFR...

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:10 AM   #3442
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This evening I received several PMs asking my thoughts on 8-bit vs. 10-bit video which I assume, due to the multiple requests coming into my inbox all on the same day, was related to the reading of some recent internet rant. Anyway, about 4 months ago, I addressed the 8-bit color relic

To those inquiring minds, I would suggest you download the JCTVC version 6 document for visual illustrations and pertinent notes as previously recommended for it will save me from redundant typing time.

It did get me thinking though. In the future, will some TV manufacturers first offer consumers 10-bit Frame Rate Control panels, marketed as “10 bit panels”….followed by “true” 10-bit panels, kind of like with HDMI 2.0 and ‘true’ HDMI 2.0, i.e. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...82#post9034301
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:31 AM   #3443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Although our list of emoticons is extensive - https://forum.blu-ray.com/misc.php?d...=vB_Editor_001
I think we need one for ‘scorching HOT’.
I think you are right. Now combine 4k and Shakira! Heaven on Earth?
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:41 PM   #3444
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Penton,

Other than Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, has there been any other true end to end 4K productions in Hollywood? I know there are quite a few 4K DIs out there, but I don't believe they are truly end to end 4K for EVERYTHING involved.
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:51 PM   #3445
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Aren't newer films like the Hobbit, The Avengers and Skyfall 4K all the way through?
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:55 PM   #3446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristoffer View Post
Aren't newer films like the Hobbit, The Avengers and Skyfall 4K all the way through?
Hobbit's effects work were done all in 2K and it only has a 2K DI. Skyfall was shot in 2K but received a 4K DI. Not sure on Avengers, but I would imagine it was a 2K DI with 2K effects.
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:57 PM   #3447
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Yup, The Avengers was shot 2K (okay 2.8K Alexa) and has a 2K DI.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:01 PM   #3448
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Does it make a huge difference? Is it like true resolution vs upscaled?

Last edited by kristoffer; 05-20-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:09 PM   #3449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristoffer View Post
Does it make a huge difference? Is it like true resolution vs upscalled?
That is exactly what it is. If the filim was shot in 4K (or higher) but the effects were done in 2K than scaled up to 4K so that a 4K master could be done, it isn't quite the same thing. How much visual difference there is could probably be debated and I'm not looking to start that. I'm just wondering how many movies have been released with a true end to end 4K process. I know The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was a MASSIVE undertaking and there are several articles about it, but I haven't heard of any other movie since then getting the same treatment.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:13 PM   #3450
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Ahh ok. I would love to see a 4K edition of TGWTDT.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:49 PM   #3451
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I saw it in theaters on a 4K Sony projector. I assume it was a 4K presentation but even having a movie with an available 4K DI and a 4K projector to show it on doesn't mean that is what you'll get. I recently visited a local cinema that retrofitted all their Barco projectors with the new 4K DLP chip. But the projectionist said they still can't show 4K movies natively because of their server limitations. It would be interesting to know how many "4K presentations" at theaters are truly 4K. I know Regal is big on saying "4K Feature Presentation" because they are using a 4K projector in the booth even if the film they're showing is only a 2K DI. It can be worse though, I saw the second Hobbit movie at a local Regal theater in 2D. They were using a Sony D-Cinema projector for the showing but it was still setup for 3D with the 3D lens attachment in place. This means the resolution was effectively even less than 2K and about half as bright. This last weekend I went to see Godzilla and went to a 2D presentation. The theater has a 4K Barco DLP projector but they left the RealD 3D lens assembly in place in front of the main lens despite it being a 2D showing. This resulted in an extremely soft image. Ridiculous given that it takes all of like a minute to move the RealD lens as it is on a sled like an anamorphic lens in a home theater setup. The Sony takes 15-30 minutes I guess, but if you know you're using that auditorium for a 2D showing for the week, tell your lazy ass projectionist to do his job.
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:11 PM   #3452
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Penton,

Other than Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, has there been any other true end to end 4K productions in Hollywood? I know there are quite a few 4K DIs out there, but I don't believe they are truly end to end 4K for EVERYTHING involved.
"EVERYTHING" meaning 100%?

You would have to find a project which was shot with a high resolution digital camera (F55, Red Epic, etc.) that had very little, or no, vfx. So, good luck with that. I guess if you’re not that precise and you consider ‘K’ finishing like horseshoe throwing, then Elysium had its vfx rendered out at 3.3K resolution.

Now, if for the sake of the viewing public, you also consider 4K equivalent product outcome, one could suggest to viewers any of the old 65mm capture motion pictures with no vfx (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=218262 ) that were scanned at 8K and made it to special theatrical showings….or potentially to 4K Blu-ray....would qualify.

Problem is, it’s still very expensive to render out vfx at 4K so as an alternate solution, what’s being done (manually) by quality conscious productions is to use various tools to sharpen up the 2K vfx in the upscale so that the imagery appears seamless to the native 4K. For the vfx upscale, Michael C. of Light Iron - http://www.lightiron.com/ (whose post facility did the work on Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo) has recently been touting to industry insiders an adaptive motion blur (AMB) methodology which, in a nutshell, is adjusting the resolution based upon how much blur is in the scene.
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:29 PM   #3453
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On an ironic historical note, of which many I think don’t remember/realize, is that the D.I. really arose from vfx. In that the digital intermediate process all started in earnest from being able to digitally scan in one or two shots (a couple minutes worth) from a 2hr. or more celluloid feature film and doing vfx stuff to that particular scene for a very *stylized look*.

So, in the grand scheme of themes, when you look back thru cinematographic and post production history, one could argue that the path towards image quality deterioration or loss of high fidelity pictures was blazed by the introduction of vfx (fake stuff), the D.I. being just a means to that end.

But, these days, you know what the mass populace prefers….


rather than non-vfx -

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Old 05-21-2014, 02:03 AM   #3454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
On an ironic historical note, of which many I think don’t remember/realize, is that the D.I. really arose from vfx. In that the digital intermediate process all started in earnest from being able to digitally scan in one or two shots (a couple minutes worth) from a 2hr. or more celluloid feature film and doing vfx stuff to that particular scene for a very *stylized look*.

So, in the grand scheme of themes, when you look back thru cinematographic and post production history, one could argue that the path towards image quality deterioration or loss of high fidelity pictures was blazed by the introduction of vfx (fake stuff), the D.I. being just a means to that end.

But, these days, you know what the mass populace prefers….

Godzilla - Official Main Trailer [HD] - YouTube

rather than non-vfx -

The Sand Pebbles - YouTube
You know, we will soon, if not already, hit a point where it's going to get hard to beat the wow factor, hopefully the importance of a good story might become a bit more prevalent. Like all, I love a good wow fest, but I also need a good story, acting, etc. good popcorn movies will always have their important place, but it would be nice to have some new stories, not just a better, more impressive remake again.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:27 PM   #3455
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Heads up to PeterTHX and other SoCal locals, a 4K TV theme along with, most importantly to Peter, “FIFA World Cup giveaways” tomorrow in Santa Monica….http://www.twice.com/news/tv/sony-de...uLFR44.twitter

In attendance ^ will be the executive slated to deliver this year’s CEDIA EXPO Opening Keynote.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:44 PM   #3456
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I saw it in theaters on a 4K Sony projector. I assume it was a 4K presentation but even having a movie with an available 4K DI and a 4K projector to show it on doesn't mean that is what you'll get....
Correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
It would be interesting to know how many "4K presentations" at theaters are truly 4K. I know Regal is big on saying "4K Feature Presentation" because they are using a 4K projector in the booth even if the film they're showing is only a 2K DI. It can be worse though, I saw the second Hobbit movie at a local Regal theater in 2D. They were using a Sony D-Cinema projector for the showing but it was still setup for 3D with the 3D lens attachment in place. This means the resolution was effectively even less than 2K and about half as bright. This last weekend I went to see Godzilla and went to a 2D presentation. The theater has a 4K Barco DLP projector but they left the RealD 3D lens assembly in place in front of the main lens despite it being a 2D showing. This resulted in an extremely soft image. Ridiculous given that it takes all of like a minute to move the RealD lens as it is on a sled like an anamorphic lens in a home theater setup. The Sony takes 15-30 minutes I guess, but if you know you're using that auditorium for a 2D showing for the week, tell your lazy ass projectionist to do his job.
Well, the 'official' claim is that it takes less than 20 minutes. Anyway, I posted this over a year ago and all I would add to the following is that the number of Sony 4K installations has increased since then by a couple thousand or so –
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
There are about 20,000 4K digital projectors which are installed. The majority of those being in the U.S. Of those 20,000, about 13 – 14,000 are from a certain manufacturer. These are configured for 3D with a dual lens, which results in a 2K projection. In order to get 4K projection, you have to change the lens. This process (in its entirety) has proven too cumbersome for just about all theater operators to implement.
Point being, despite some 4K DCP delivery to 4K capable theaters, chances are most audiences are still seeing 2K rez imagery due to the 3D lens not being removed in the projection booth.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:49 PM   #3457
Kris Deering Kris Deering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
Correct.

Well, the 'official' claim is that it takes less than 20 minutes. Anyway, I posted this over a year ago and all I would add to the following is that the number of Sony 4K installations has increased since then by a couple thousand or so –

Point being, despite some 4K DCP delivery to 4K capable theaters, chances are most audiences are still seeing 2K rez imagery due to the 3D lens not being removed in the projection booth.
I wonder if the Sony numbers are actually growing. There are several theater chains near me that were outfitted with Sony 4K projectors when they first came out and now most of them have changed them out to Barco. I was surprised too given the cost and how long they've actually had them, but that has been the case at several of them. Is Sony's market share dropping here? I know the new Barco projectors can do true 4K 3D and HFR, maybe that is a draw??
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:27 PM   #3458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man View Post
On an ironic historical note, of which many I think don’t remember/realize, is that the D.I. really arose from vfx. In that the digital intermediate process all started in earnest from being able to digitally scan in one or two shots (a couple minutes worth) from a 2hr. or more celluloid feature film and doing vfx stuff to that particular scene for a very *stylized look*.

So, in the grand scheme of themes, when you look back thru cinematographic and post production history, one could argue that the path towards image quality deterioration or loss of high fidelity pictures was blazed by the introduction of vfx (fake stuff), the D.I. being just a means to that end.

But, these days, you know what the mass populace prefers….
I kinda touched on that in the second paragraph here https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...ostcount=46260 and you're absolutely right, so much of what exists in today's digital post & restoration processes is due to the historical requirements of getting this piece o' VFX onto that strip o' celluloid.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:01 AM   #3459
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I kinda touched on that in the second paragraph here https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...ostcount=46260 and you're absolutely right, so much of what exists in today's digital post & restoration processes is due to the historical requirements of getting this piece o' VFX onto that strip o' celluloid.
lol, I just read the post from Nicolawicz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolawicz
Even if it "works", just knowing they did that to the film makes me nauseous. And I'm sure the Lowry'ed stuff would still look disgustingly unnatural if you did a side-by-side comparison with the original.
above yours on that Stars Wars thread that prompted your response.
Yeah, a lot of dem boys don’t like even the idea of adding fake grain or regraining as previously mentioned on another 4K thread we have - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...in#post7872218

Note, if the linked pdf in the above post ^ is no longer active, point is, the separations used in the restoration for Bus Stop (1956) underwent degraining and regraining but apparently the reviewer from the Beaver was happily clueless as was our Blu-ray.com reviewer - https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Bus-S.../72428/#Review

But I’ve made so many posts about grain, degrain, regrain, even the neuro-ophthalmologic aspect of it all for which astute colorists leverage - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...in#post5758551

that by now I’m pretty much all grained out on that. Since you brought up ILM though, I will comment that they’ve had some pretty bright and dedicated people working for them throughout the years. You see in color science, the development of the OpenEXR format (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...xr#post7186967)
is considered to be pretty much the holy grail.

In fact, when stored on disk, ACES files are stored in a constrained version of the OpenEXR format. In abouts 1999/2000 ILM developed the OpenEXR format in response to the demand for higher color accuracy and control in effects and it was released to the public in ’03. Now it’s supported by most companies in the industry. Truly, great work http://openexr.com/
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:07 AM   #3460
Penton-Man Penton-Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I wonder if the Sony numbers are actually growing. There are several theater chains near me that were outfitted with Sony 4K projectors when they first came out and now most of them have changed them out to Barco. I was surprised too given the cost and how long they've actually had them, but that has been the case at several of them. Is Sony's market share dropping here? I know the new Barco projectors can do true 4K 3D and HFR, maybe that is a draw??
I’m pretty certain that a tad over 15,000+ (worldwide) is an accurate figure for the number of Sony 4K projectors installed by now (since my last post on the topic). Honestly, I don’t know what the recent market trend/share would be these days by manufacturer....and competition is good.

I guess you’d have to refer to a good research source (https://technology.ihs.com/AboutUs)
that many insiders in the business aspect of the industry read in order to keep up-to-date on the competition amongst the different projector manufacturers…https://technology.ihs.com/342901/ci...digital-cinema < I haven't read the report issued 2 weeks ago.

b.t.w., I’ve been meaning to ask, what’s with the new avatar?

Last edited by Penton-Man; 05-22-2014 at 03:09 AM.
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