Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

You don't own the content, but you own the disc. As long you own the disc the content owners have absolutely no way of taking the content away. When the content owners stop offering the content you can still access the content buy buying a used disc from one of thousands of people who own a disc. The disc is the license and it can't be taken away.

True. On the other hand, this also means that if the disc is lost or damaged, you're screwed. With iTunes, you just download another copy.

With downloads when official support stops there is no (legal) way to buy or view the content. The download itself is not the license and all licenses for downloads can be revoked.

To my knowledge Apple cannot revoke the keys that are used to play a downloaded protected copy. Once a device is authorized, you can leave it completely offline and it continues playing your files. The only potential problem is that you wouldn't be able to authorize further devices. I don't expect Apple to disintegrate in my lifetime, but if something like this were to happen, I'd have no scruples removing the DRM from my files. I actually had some HD-DVDs in addition to BDs. When the format died I ripped them all to files (and I'm glad I did, because fully functional players are harder and harder to come by these days).

There is no such thing as "perpetual licensing" for a download. No company is going to support all of its content forever and they shouldn't have to. But they also shouldn't make products that require their continued support to function.

The Blu-ray format will not be supported forever either, and discs start failing at some point as well. Not to mention that you'll eventually lose interest in your old discs. Or are you still using your old VHS tapes?

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

True. On the other hand, this also means that if the disc is lost or damaged, you're screwed. With iTunes, you just download another copy.

If a Blu-ray breaks I can buy another one from one of the thousands of people who still has a working copy. This will remain true long after the title goes out of print.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

To my knowledge Apple cannot revoke the keys that are used to play a downloaded protected copy. Once a device is authorized, you can leave it completely offline and it continues playing your files. The only potential problem is that you wouldn't be able to authorize further devices. I don't expect Apple to disintegrate in my lifetime, but if something like this were to happen, I'd have no scruples removing the DRM from my files.

Best case scenario: You can continue to play all the titles you've bought (though there's no guarantee of that). But there's still the problem of not being able to buy any titles that have been removed. That problem doesn't exist with physical titles due to the used market.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

The Blu-ray format will not be supported forever either, and discs start failing at some point as well. Not to mention that you'll eventually lose interest in your old discs. Or are you still using your old VHS tapes?

Fortunately every title I'm interested in made the transition from VHS to DVD. But the same is not true for Blu-ray, so I still watch plenty of titles on DVD. Even more titles will never make it Ultra HD Blu-ray. Therefore I will still be using DVDs & Blu-rays for the rest of my life and I absolutely want them to continue working.

The Blu-ray format doesn't need support to continue working. While I'm sure plenty of Blu-ray discs and plenty of Blu-ray players will break I have no doubt I'll easily be able to find replacements. It's still easy to buy VCRs and LaserDisc players despite both of those formats being dead for many years. Downloads have no replacements without the continuous support of the content owners.

No art should become unavailable just because the content owners decide it's no longer profitable to continue offering it. I can be certain with any titles that are available on disc that the used market will ensure they remain available long after the content owners have dropped all support.

But with downloads once it's removed from sale it's not (legally) available at all.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Best case scenario: You can continue to play all the titles you've bought (though there's no guarantee of that). But there's still the problem of not being able to buy any titles that have been removed. That problem doesn't exist with physical titles due to the used market.

There are plenty of OOP BDs that are very hard (or very expensive) to find.

Fortunately every title I'm interested in made the transition from VHS to DVD. But the same is not true for Blu-ray, so I still watch plenty of titles on DVD. Even more titles will never make it Ultra HD Blu-ray. Therefore I will still be using DVDs & Blu-rays for the rest of my life and I absolutely want them to continue working.

With a handful of exceptions, I haven't touched my DVDs in years. The quality is no longer acceptable for me (in particular because I prefer watching on a large projection screen). Besides, my tastes have changed and I simply have lost interest in many of the movies I collected back then. The same happened when I switched from VHS to DVD. I'm pretty sure Blu-ray won't be any different.

Besides, using any disc player in general with their loading times, unskippable trailers, FBI warnings etc. already seems archaic and clunky to me now that I'm used to watching stuff from my media server.

But with downloads once it's removed from sale it's not (legally) available at all.

Digital distribution is much less expensive for the studios compared to manufacturing and distributing discs. Overall, digital is likely to increase availability of catalog titles rather than limit it. There are already plenty of titles that are available in digital HD but not on Blu-ray.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

There are plenty of OOP BDs that are very hard (or very expensive) to find.

The majority of out of print titles are cheap and easy to find. Therefore most people don't even realize they are out of print. But even if a title is expensive it is still available.

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Digital distribution is much less expensive for the studios compared to manufacturing and distributing discs. Overall, digital is likely to increase availability of catalaog titles rather than limit it. There are already plenty of titles that are available in digital HD but not on Blu-ray.

Google this exact phrase:

site:amazon.com "Our agreements with the content provider don’t allow purchases"

Thousands of titles have been removed from sale. All of those titles are now unavailable digitally. If they never got a physical release that makes them completely unavailable. While it's likely less titles will be digitally removed than go physically out of print... digitally removed is much worse.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

If a Blu-ray breaks I can buy another one from one of the thousands of people who still has a working copy. This will remain true long after the title goes out of print.

Best case scenario: You can continue to play all the titles you've bought (though there's no guarantee of that). But there's still the problem of not being able to buy any titles that have been removed. That problem doesn't exist with physical titles due to the used market.

Fortunately every title I'm interested in made the transition from VHS to DVD. But the same is not true for Blu-ray, so I still watch plenty of titles on DVD. Even more titles will never make it Ultra HD Blu-ray. Therefore I will still be using DVDs & Blu-rays for the rest of my life and I absolutely want them to continue working.

The Blu-ray format doesn't need support to continue working. While I'm sure plenty of Blu-ray discs and plenty of Blu-ray players will break I have no doubt I'll easily be able to find replacements. It's still easy to buy VCRs and LaserDisc players despite both of those formats being dead for many years. Downloads have no replacements without the continuous support of the content owners.

No art should become unavailable just because the content owners decide it's no longer profitable to continue offering it. I can be certain with any titles that are available on disc that the used market will ensure they remain available long after the content owners have dropped all support.

But with downloads once it's removed from sale it's not (legally) available at all.

Everything has a Life Span, and nothing last forever. So we can go on and on about Disc or Digital, but time marches on and Technology keeps increasing. Yes, there are a lot of Collectors and I'm sure Discs will last a long time but their prices will go up depending on Supply and Demand. Streaming Digital will only get better, and be the norm for Distribution.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Everything has a Life Span, and nothing last forever. So we can go on and on about Disc or Digital, but time marches on and Technology keeps increasing. Yes, there are a lot of Collectors and I'm sure Discs will last a long time but their prices will go up depending on Supply and Demand. Streaming Digital will only get better, and be the norm for Distribution.

This is a thread about physical copies or digital... what else do you expect to happen other than us going on and on about disc or digital?

You love to point out that streaming is popular and will become the norm; that doesn't say anything about its merits. Saying something is popular is not an argument for it. That's like saying Avatar must be the best movie ever because it's the highest grossing movie ever.

Streaming will likely get higher quality video and audio and become more reliable, but the studios will also use stricter DRM and institute more control. So overall it won't become better.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Everything has a Life Span, and nothing last forever. So we can go on and on about Disc or Digital, but time marches on and Technology keeps increasing. Yes, there are a lot of Collectors and I'm sure Discs will last a long time but their prices will go up depending on Supply and Demand. Streaming Digital will only get better, and be the norm for Distribution.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

This is a thread about physical copies or digital... what else do you expect to happen other than us going on and on about disc or digital?

You love to point out that streaming is popular and will become the norm; that doesn't say anything about its merits. Saying something is popular is not an argument for it. That's like saying Avatar must be the best movie ever because it's the highest grossing movie ever.

Streaming will likely get higher quality video and audio and become more reliable, but the studios will also use stricter DRM and institute more control. So overall it won't become better.

I never said anything about popular, I said better. I also agree with you, Downloads and Streaming are two different things. Downloads are compressed, and not as good as Streaming. Streaming will become the norm because Movies and Video can reach it's audience in real time. Content is for us to enjoy, and not to own this belongs to the originators.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I never said anything about popular, I said better. I also agree with you, Downloads and Streaming are two different things. Downloads are compressed, and not as good as Streaming. Streaming will become the norm because Movies and Video can reach it's audience in real time. Content is for us to enjoy, and not to own this belongs to the originators.

Vudu downloads and streaming are the same file, streaming is not better despite what you want to believe.

[stonesfan129]

I'll keep buying physical until 3 things happen:

-Streaming quality matches physical discs
-Content is constantly available/accessible
-Content can be stored for offline viewing outside of a crappy, proprietary "app"

I'd also add one more. I should be allowed to rip and upload my own physical discs into the cloud for free since I've already paid for the disc/license to view the content. I realize Vudu already allows this, but I'm not paying $2-5 to get streaming versions of stuff I've already bought.

I think the final nail in the coffin for physical will be when studios announce the first-ever digital-only release. It's probably not a long ways off and it makes sense. It would reduce production costs, it would also allow studios to have maximum control over content.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

I think the final nail in the coffin for physical will be when studios announce the first-ever digital-only release. It's probably not a long ways off and it makes sense. It would reduce production costs, it would also allow studios to have maximum control over content.

There have been plenty of digital-only releases. Have you never heard of Netflix, Amazon, or Hulu? The majority of their "originals" never make it physical media and the ones that do usually come out over a year later (with no indication when they launch that they will get a physical release).

Originally Posted by alchav21

Content is for us to enjoy, and not to own this belongs to the originators.

So all of Shakespeare's work should now be unavailable? The originator is long gone.

I don't care if I own the content... but no one should be able to take it away, not even the originators.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

There have been plenty of digital-only releases. Have you never heard of Netflix, Amazon, or Hulu? The majority of their "originals" never make it physical media and the ones that do usually come out over a year later (with no indication when they launch that they will get a physical release).

That has only been their own TV shows they've made exclusively for those services. I'm talking about Hollywood films here.

[Dubstar]

i have this feeling we will never see Dreamworks catalog of animation features on bluray ... caved in and bought the digital HDX versions

[randian]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

i have this feeling we will never see Dreamworks catalog of animation features on bluray ... caved in and bought the digital HDX versions

What movies are you thinking of? Titles like Megamind and Kung Fu Panda are certainly available on blu-ray.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I never said anything about popular, I said better. I also agree with you, Downloads and Streaming are two different things. Downloads are compressed, and not as good as Streaming. Streaming will become the norm because Movies and Video can reach it's audience in real time. Content is for us to enjoy, and not to own this belongs to the originators.

Originally Posted by Greyman

Vudu downloads and streaming are the same file, streaming is not better despite what you want to believe.

Downloaded Files have to be compressed to make for efficient downloads, but Streaming Video BitRate with Vudu depends on your Bandwidth. They have been increasing the BitRate according to your Access and Bandwidth. So if you have FTTH the BitRate can be as good as Blu-ray. Vudu is in the process of scheduling a survey with me, and I will find out more on this subject.

[Kyoufu]

When it comes to movies/TV it's physical for me. Music I can back up easily enough because it takes up relatively little space, but multiple GB movies isn't practical at the moment.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Downloaded Files have to be compressed to make for efficient downloads, but Streaming Video BitRate with Vudu depends on your Bandwidth. They have been increasing the BitRate according to your Access and Bandwidth. So if you have FTTH the BitRate can be as good as Blu-ray. Vudu is in the process of scheduling a survey with me, and I will find out more on this subject.

This has been gone over numerous times, Vudu may have great picture quality, but your statements are not accurate.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

That has only been their own TV shows they've made exclusively for those services. I'm talking about Hollywood films here.

All the major film releases continue to get the majority of their home video income from discs. Consumer spending on movie purchases (rather than rentals or subscriptions) is more than 70% discs. Consumer spending on individual rentals is about 55% discs. Only subscription services do better digitally, but the most popular releases only show up there after they've drastically dropped in sales everywhere else. Therefore there is no chance that any major film release will forgo a physical release anytime soon.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Downloaded Files have to be compressed to make for efficient downloads, but Streaming Video BitRate with Vudu depends on your Bandwidth. They have been increasing the BitRate according to your Access and Bandwidth. So if you have FTTH the BitRate can be as good as Blu-ray. Vudu is in the process of scheduling a survey with me, and I will find out more on this subject.

Originally Posted by Greyman

This has been gone over numerous times, Vudu may have great picture quality, but your statements are not accurate.

It's a known fact that BitRate is the controlling factor for Streaming Video Quality. Streaming from a Blu-ray Player or 1:1 Rip Files on a Server have the same Video Quality. So if Vudu provides Blu-ray Quality Video Files on their Servers, then the BitRate should be of equal Quality. I'll know more when I talk to Vudu, but I know they have been increasing their BitRate.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It's a known fact that BitRate is the controlling factor for Streaming Video Quality. Streaming from a Blu-ray Player or 1:1 Rip Files on a Server have the same Video Quality. So if Vudu provides Blu-ray Quality Video Files on their Servers, then the BitRate should be of equal Quality. I'll know more when I talk to Vudu, but I know they have been increasing their BitRate.

No one is disputing that if Vudu provided files with the same bit rate as Blu-ray files they would be the same quality. But there's no evidence that they'll do that anytime soon. Plus Ultra HD Blu-ray is currently the best quality option and there is even less chance that Vudu will match the bit rate of those soon.

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by master gandhi

You mean like the ads that play at the beginning of many Blu-rays?

I definitely get the resistance to digital streaming. It might not be smart to fully embrace it and completely rid yourself of physical media yet (I haven't sold any of my many Blu-rays). It's probably still best to balance the two until things are figured out more by the industry. If the industry ever decides to be on the same page with one standard, like a universal DMA-type account across all platforms, and a guarantee that your digital copy won't be taken away from you in your lifetime, that would probably satisfy most consumers.

But as it stands, I try to live in the now, and just enjoy what I have while I have it. I do waver back and forth about being all-digital or digital-plus-physical. The most recent physical copy I got was The Secret Life of Pets because TopCashBack reimbursed me completely for it (and I also own 7 UHD BDs). The most recent digital purchase was for Don't Breathe (for $7.99).

I do find myself also watching movies that are about to leave a subscription streaming provider, such as HBO GO. I watched The Great Outdoors last weekend on that app because it's said to be expiring. I was watching the Rifftrax Live of Sharknado Monday night with my wife, and had to pause it to finish it Tuesday, but on Tuesday, it had expired so it was gone. Not even purchasable. Just gone completely from Amazon Prime. So we watched Rifftrax Live of Sharknado 2. Heh

This is me...everyday. The constant back and forth between the two.