Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by master gandhi

As long as people keep buying new movies, the streaming providers/studios will continue to allow customers to access what they bought. If older movies start dropping off, people might just stop buying and start renting. Not a good business move.

I doubt most customers would even notice if a few of their movies disappeared. Plus the studios are not against people switching to digital rentals; getting paid every time someone watches a movie is not bad for business.

[P-Rock]

I'm from the times when we still bought records and movies in a store, so I'll always prefer physical discs over something digital.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Plus physical has no ongoing costs unlike digital. Once the customer buys a disc the studio never has to do anything ever again.

With digital the file has to be continually hosted with constant access to all customers. Many digital supporters think everything in their collection will always be available. That will certainly add up to a much higher expense if every studio has to pay to make every movie they've ever made continually available to customers even if no one has spent a cent on some titles for decades.

That's why I think people are crazing for thinking titles will remain available. Why would any business keep paying to offer something that makes them no money?

Penguin your rationalization is all twisted, I keep telling you it's all Digital now. Your Physical Discs are just Storage Devices, so now these Digital Movies are put on a Server, and with UV on multiple Servers. So the access is timeless, and there is a Master Digital File that will remain long after you and I are gone. You do know your Blu-ray Player Streams that Movie to your HDTV similar to Streaming Digital HD. So the notion of either Media disappearing doesn't make sense. As for the ongoing cost, Storage is very cheap, and Servers can be located anywhere even with your ISP.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Penguin your rationalization is all twisted, I keep telling you it's all Digital now. Your Physical Discs are just Storage Devices, so now these Digital Movies are put on a Server, and with UV on multiple Servers. So the access is timeless, and there is a Master Digital File that will remain long after you and I are gone. You do know your Blu-ray Player Streams that Movie to your HDTV similar to Streaming Digital HD. So the notion of either Media disappearing doesn't make sense. As for the ongoing cost, Storage is very cheap, and Servers can be located anywhere even with your ISP.

Sorry that is wrong. Yes it is passed the the player from the disc but how that is done is a million miles away from streaming, due to compression and a million and one other things.
Those masters may exist but you are showing little regard as to how those masters are presented and continue to do so. I really do not know what VUDU or whatever you call it are filling you full of but to be honest it ain't pretty and smells of BS, to put it frankly. Yes these are 1s & 0s but how they are handled is crucial to PQ etc............you consistently fail time and again to understand this, simply because you consider this format (Streaming) a thing of the future but fail to understand the fundamental argument as to why this is totally untrue.........it is a convenience not the future.

For reference when will Vudu ever do this:

LIMITED TWO-DISC EDITION CONTENTS:
Brand new 4K restoration from the original camera negative produced by Arrow Films exclusively for this release
Original 1.0 mono audio
Optional English subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing
Brand new audio commentary by Stephen Prince, author of Savage Cinema: Sam Peckinpah and the Rise of Ultraviolent Movies, recorded exclusively for this release
Audio commentary by Sam Peckinpah scholars Paul Seydor, Garner Simmons and David Weddle, moderated by Nick Redman
Sam Peckinpah: Man of Iron, Paul Joyce’s feature-length 1993 documentary featuring interviews with James Coburn, Kris Kristofferson, Monte Hellman, Ali MacGraw, James Robards and others, available on home video in the UK for the first time ever
The John Player Lecture: Sam Peckinpah, audio recording of the director’s on-stage appearance at the National Film Theatre
Theatrical trailer
Bonus Blu-ray: Featuring never-before-seen interviews with Peckinpah colleagues and contemporaries including Kris Kristofferson, Monte Hellman, L.Q. Jones, Alan Sharp and more (TBC) [Limited Edition exclusive]
Reversible sleeve featuring original and newly commissioned artwork by Peter Strain
Extensive collector’s booklet containing new writing by Alexandra Heller-Nicholas and numerous reprints including interviews and more [Limited Edition exclusive]

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Penguin your rationalization is all twisted, I keep telling you it's all Digital now. Your Physical Discs are just Storage Devices, so now these Digital Movies are put on a Server, and with UV on multiple Servers. So the access is timeless, and there is a Master Digital File that will remain long after you and I are gone. You do know your Blu-ray Player Streams that Movie to your HDTV similar to Streaming Digital HD. So the notion of either Media disappearing doesn't make sense. As for the ongoing cost, Storage is very cheap, and Servers can be located anywhere even with your ISP.

Just look at the original Xbox: all of its downloadable content is now completely unavailable. According to you storage is super cheap so there is no reason for Microsoft to not make it available forever... but they didn't. Keeping unprofitable content available may be a relatively minor expense but that doesn't mean companies are willing to pay it.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Penguin your rationalization is all twisted, I keep telling you it's all Digital now. Your Physical Discs are just Storage Devices, so now these Digital Movies are put on a Server, and with UV on multiple Servers. So the access is timeless, and there is a Master Digital File that will remain long after you and I are gone. You do know your Blu-ray Player Streams that Movie to your HDTV similar to Streaming Digital HD. So the notion of either Media disappearing doesn't make sense. As for the ongoing cost, Storage is very cheap, and Servers can be located anywhere even with your ISP.

Originally Posted by tele1962

Sorry that is wrong. Yes it is passed the the player from the disc but how that is done is a million miles away from streaming, due to compression and a million and one other things.
Those masters may exist but you are showing little regard as to how those masters are presented and continue to do so. I really do not know what VUDU or whatever you call it are filling you full of but to be honest it ain't pretty and smells of BS, to put it frankly. Yes these are 1s & 0s but how they are handled is crucial to PQ etc............you consistently fail time and again to understand this, simply because you consider this format (Streaming) a thing of the future but fail to understand the fundamental argument as to why this is totally untrue.........it is a convenience not the future.

For reference when will Vudu ever do this:

LIMITED TWO-DISC EDITION CONTENTS:
Brand new 4K restoration from the original camera negative produced by Arrow Films exclusively for this release
Original 1.0 mono audio
Optional English subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing
Brand new audio commentary by Stephen Prince, author of Savage Cinema: Sam Peckinpah and the Rise of Ultraviolent Movies, recorded exclusively for this release..........

You guys are stuck on Today, but I'm talking about Tomorrow. Streaming 1:1 Digital HD Files from a Server is possible, I have done it with both DVD and Blu-ray Back-up Files, and K-Scape has been doing it for Decades. With the right Access and Bandwidth PQ/AQ can and will be the same as Disc. As for extra content Vudu does have Featurettes and Commentary for some of their newer releases. Now that Limited Edition Market Disc will still be there for the Collectors, but you will just have to pay more for these Discs because of the extras and fancy wrappings.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Penguin your rationalization is all twisted, I keep telling you it's all Digital now. Your Physical Discs are just Storage Devices, so now these Digital Movies are put on a Server, and with UV on multiple Servers. So the access is timeless, and there is a Master Digital File that will remain long after you and I are gone. You do know your Blu-ray Player Streams that Movie to your HDTV similar to Streaming Digital HD. So the notion of either Media disappearing doesn't make sense. As for the ongoing cost, Storage is very cheap, and Servers can be located anywhere even with your ISP.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Just look at the original Xbox: all of its downloadable content is now completely unavailable. According to you storage is super cheap so there is no reason for Microsoft to not make it available forever... but they didn't. Keeping unprofitable content available may be a relatively minor expense but that doesn't mean companies are willing to pay it.

Does anyone want those Old Games, just like Old OS, Windows 95 is not available but no one wants it. I'm sure Microsoft can still dig out that Old OS from one of it's Servers. Movies are different they are timeless, but you are right, there has to be a demand. My Collection now is almost 500, and I haven't lost anything but then I have only been Collecting a couple of years. I do keep a catalog, so I have a good track on my Blu-ray and Digital Collection. Like I said Storage is cheap and can be put anywhere, so if a Provider is unwilling to keep your Movies they can be easily moved to another location, even to your Local Server or ISP.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Does anyone want those Old Games, just like Old OS, Windows 95 is not available but no one wants it. I'm sure Microsoft can still dig out that Old OS from one of it's Servers. Movies are different they are timeless, but you are right, there has to be a demand.

That's exactly the point: nothing gets removed while it's still popular. Whenever someone complains that a specific title is removed most people will just say "Does anyone care about that title?" I see all art (video games, movies, TV shows, music, poetry, literature, paintings, etc.) as timeless; none of it should ever be taken away. No one should be unable to get a certain title just because it wasn't popular.

Tools (like an OS) are not timeless because they are interchangable, as long as something functionally identical is available then that's fine. As long as you can run Windows 95 games on a later OS then Windows 95 itself is not needed.

Originally Posted by alchav21

My Collection now is almost 500, and I haven't lost anything but then I have only been Collecting a couple of years.

Digital distribution is in its relative infancy, nothing has been around for more than 10 years. So it's no surprise that very little has been removed. But in 20-30 years do you really expect all the unpopular movies of today will still be available?

Originally Posted by alchav21

I do keep a catalog, so I have a good track on my Blu-ray and Digital Collection. Like I said Storage is cheap and can be put anywhere, so if a Provider is unwilling to keep your Movies they can be easily moved to another location, even to your Local Server or ISP.

So you're advocating breaking DRM to store movies on your local servers and pirating movies that are no longer offered?

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I do keep a catalog, so I have a good track on my Blu-ray and Digital Collection. Like I said Storage is cheap and can be put anywhere, so if a Provider is unwilling to keep your Movies they can be easily moved to another location, even to your Local Server or ISP.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

So you're advocating breaking DRM to store movies on your local servers and pirating movies that are no longer offered?

You keep talking about streaming, not downloads. If you stream everything then at the point a title is removed it'll be too late for you to make a back-up on your home servers, it'll already be gone. The only way you could possibly get it at that point is by pirating it. Are you advocating piracy?

No of course not, these Servers will have the Licensing DRM, like I said these Servers will be able to be placed anywhere. Storage is cheap and abundant, so I don't see a problem with storing and accessing your Movie Collection at the optimal PQ/AQ of your choice.

You keep talking about titles being removed, I haven't seen this and don't expect it to happen. I use to do DVD and Blu-ray Back-ups, not anymore since Digital HD. So I have full confidence that the Movies will be there in my Lifetime, after that does not concern me.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

No of course not, these Servers will have the Licensing DRM, like I said these Servers will be able to be placed anywhere. Storage is cheap and abundant, so I don't see a problem with storing and accessing your Movie Collection at the optimal PQ/AQ of your choice.

Who's hosting these servers? Only the studio who owns each movie or TV show has the legal right to offer it. If they don't want to bother with that expense because a particular movie or TV show isn't selling anymore no one else can possibly pick up the slack.

Originally Posted by alchav21

You keep talking about titles being removed, I haven't seen this and don't expect it to happen. I use to do DVD and Blu-ray Back-ups, not anymore since Digital HD. So I have full confidence that the Movies will be there in my Lifetime, after that does not concern me.

Plenty of titles have been removed from sale, but very few have been removed from collections so far. With how new digital distribution is that shouldn't be surprising. The studios are still trying to drive people to digital so they can't afford to be cutting corners and dropping unpopular movies yet. But in 10-20 years I'm sure it will happen a lot more. It'll still be a relatively small percentage of movies overall that become unavailable but each one will be lost forever.

Whether or not it happens often it's terrible to support a system that even allows titles to be completely taken away.

[master gandhi]

Originally Posted by tele1962

Sorry that is wrong. Yes it is passed the the player from the disc but how that is done is a million miles away from streaming, due to compression and a million and one other things.
Those masters may exist but you are showing little regard as to how those masters are presented and continue to do so. I really do not know what VUDU or whatever you call it are filling you full of but to be honest it ain't pretty and smells of BS, to put it frankly. Yes these are 1s & 0s but how they are handled is crucial to PQ etc............you consistently fail time and again to understand this, simply because you consider this format (Streaming) a thing of the future but fail to understand the fundamental argument as to why this is totally untrue.........it is a convenience not the future.

Many people, including myself, believe that convenience is the future.

It may not be the ideal future for obsessive collectors, but it's the future nonetheless. I'm not just saying this in regards to movies. I'm saying this in general. It seems that way to me at least.

[rui no onna]

Originally Posted by master gandhi

Many people, including myself, believe that convenience is the future.

It may not be the ideal future for obsessive collectors, but it's the future nonetheless. I'm not just saying this in regards to movies. I'm saying this in general. It seems that way to me at least.

I agree. I don't like it but I agree.

That said, I reckon Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Video are the winners here. Not many people willing to pay $10-20 a pop for movie downloads.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by rui no onna

I agree. I don't like it but I agree.

That said, I reckon Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Video are the winners here. Not many people willing to pay $10-20 a pop for movie downloads.

Thankfully so, that's why physical media is here to stay.

[Cranston37]

If you read this article from this morning with studio execs discussing this topic, *they* don't even think this constant drumbeat of doom about physical media is warranted...

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/new...wnership-39362

"Disc sales, after years of double-digit declines, ended the year remarkably resilient, due in no small part to a surprising uptick in Blu-ray Disc sales - 8% in the first nine months of the year. But the sales growth of electronic sellthrough (EST) just as surprisingly leveled out - with preliminary numbers showing digital download sales for the year growing just 5.42% - dragged down by an anemic 0.26% in the fourth quarter. These developments have prompted studio executives to step up efforts to boost disc sales through stronger retail partnerships and expanded distribution outlets."

"Further fueling optimism about the disc business is the promise of Ultra HD Blu-ray. The first Ultra HD Blu-ray titles were released in March; by the end of the year, consumers snapped up an impressive 1.8 million UHD Blu-ray discs in the United States - four times the amount of regular Blu-ray Discs sold a decade ago in that format’s similar window."

"There’s still a lot of life left in physical media and the industry needs to continue to serve this vital part of the market,” said Warner’s Ron Sanders. "And don’t forget that physical DVD and Blu-ray Disc still represent well over half of our revenues, with explosive growth in the 4K UHD segment.”

“In many ways, 2016 was the year of Ultra HD Blu-ray, a category I expect will only continue to gather momentum as we move into 2017,” said Sony’s Manjit Singh. “We all watch plenty of media on the go, but consumers want a premium experience in their living rooms. At home, quality matters. 4K resolution, high dynamic range and immersive audio systems are increasingly common in consumers’ living rooms, and they want premium content to make the most of these systems. At SPHE, we were among the first studios to launch 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray, and sales have already exceeded our expectations, contributing to significant growth in spending on the format. As more UHD players come to market, we expect this trend to continue.”

"The leveling off of EST sales, studio executives say, can be blamed on a variety of factors... New theatrical features are available only for sale, either on disc or as downloads, and it can take quite a while for top-grossing movies to come to Netflix - if they ever do. One studio executive, who didn’t want his name used, pointed out that the most recent movie from his studio available at Netflix is 9 years old."

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Cranston37

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/new...wnership-39362

This explains my buying habits, I guess I follow the industry. I bought DVD's from 2000-2010 and then didn't buy a single movie until last year when I bought my first Blu-ray (which piqued my interest in UV, which made me purchase a lot more Blu-ray's).

I purchased around 60 Blu-ray's last year and will purchase my first 4K when Arrival arrives in stores in a couple of weeks.

I'll spend ~ $20 for a physical copy of a movie I like (if it has a digital code), but I won't spend more than $3 for a digital only movie.

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[Cranston37]

I will say this - my takeaway from that article is if you think the future is digital alone, the studios don't necessarily agree with you. As one said, they just want you to buy movies and they don't really care what format it's in. I know there's more profit if you do it digitally, but what they are thinking is there is more profit in buying in general vs. subscribing, and that's where they are focused.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Does anyone want those Old Games, just like Old OS, Windows 95 is not available but no one wants it.

First of all a game is quite different than an operating system. One is a piece of entertainment, the other is more of a digital functional tool.

Secondly, this kind of attitude is what scares me, both as a fan of movies and of video games.

There are plenty of video games on older systems that I still enjoy. Some were once very popular, some were obscure even when they were new. Given what happened with the digitally distributed content on the original Xbox, for example, I'm glad that most of my older games/content are on physical media. I worry more about long term access to current games since so many of them now are either distributed digitally, or released physically, but are then dependent upon digitally distributed patches, updates, and dlc.

I don't want continuous access to the content that I enjoy to be dependent to any extent upon how many other people happen to enjoy that same content. Yeah, I enjoy many mainstream games and movies, but I enjoy a lot of obscure ones, too.

Also, there are some titles (both games and movies) that I don't personally care for, but that doesn't mean that I want access to them to go away for others.

Originally Posted by master gandhi

As long as people keep buying new movies, the streaming providers/studios will continue to allow customers to access what they bought.

But what happens when people's purchases slow down?

Look at the decline in physical media sales. While digital (including the likes of Netflix, rentals, and actual digital purchases) is a factor, the reality is that after the big DVD "boom," decline was inevitable. Once people collect their favorite older movies and TV shows, for the most part their ongoing purchases are limited mainly to newer titles. And while newer formats like Blu-Ray (and then 3D and now 4K BD) will result in some people buying the same movies again, for the most part the masses aren't interested in doing so, save for maybe titles akin to Star Wars, the Marvel films, and the like (and even that isn't universal across the board, and will come with limited willingness to buy them again and again).

Digital purchases have pretty much been struggling out of the gate. But for anyone who has embraced them "whole hog," if they are buying their favorite older content digitally in addition to newer content, eventually that will slow down and be limited to mostly newer content with the occasional piece of older content here and there just making it's way over.

Will the services and the studios see enough continued money coming in to consider it worth while to continue hosting ALL of that content? It is a very iffy proposition in my opinion. For the sake of those who have purchased them, I hope that access remains for as long as possible - preferably "forever" - but I'm not holding my breath on that being the case.

Originally Posted by master gandhi

Many people, including myself, believe that convenience is the future.

It may not be the ideal future for obsessive collectors, but it's the future nonetheless. I'm not just saying this in regards to movies. I'm saying this in general. It seems that way to me at least.

Convenience is great up to a point. The problem is when it comes with a huge/potentially huge trade off. That's my concern.

I'd be more inclined to embrace digital if there was an absolute, 100%, beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt guarantee that any and all content that I purchase digitally will ALWAYS be available to me and will never be removed/taken away. But there is no such guarantee.

And the problem is that the masses (the same ones who a few years back were hooking up a PS3 or BD player to their HDTV with yellow/red/white composite cables and thinking they were getting an HD picture) don't really think about or comprehend the long term ramifications.

People see short term convenience and don't think about anything beyond that.

[whipnet]

Subscription based movie viewing like Netflix and Hulu is sub-par. They stream in no better than 720 or DVD quality. If they do stream at a higher resolution, they do it at the same bitrate.

According to my Cisco ASA, Netflix and Hulu (haven't check into others) stream at ~4000kbs while an HDX movie from VUDU streams at ~10000kbs or Blu-ray quality.

**edited for side note: FandangoNow downloads in burst and each burst might come from a different server. Much different than others.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Subscription based movie viewing like Netflix and Hulu is sub-par. They stream in no better than 720 or DVD quality. If they do stream at a higher resolution, they do it at the same bitrate.

According to my Cisco ASA, Netflix and Hulu (haven't check into others) stream at ~4000kbs while an HDX movie from VUDU streams at ~10000kbs or Blu-ray quality.

**edited for side note: FandangoNow downloads in burst and each burst might come from a different server. Much different than others.

Netflix streams House of Cards and Daredevil in 4K. Your post is wrong.

And their 4K streaming looks fantastic.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Netflix streams House of Cards and Daredevil in 4K. Your post is wrong.

And their 4K streaming looks fantastic.

Sorry, I was comparing apples to apples, however I'd be interested in knowing what the bitrate they stream those two things at. Do you know?

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