Message from michaelbay.com

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

If rdjam is representing the HD DVD team I will politely decline any offer to debate there. He has run away from so many points that I've brought up and then when I try to ask him why he still hasn't answered some questions yet, he starts blethering on about how this is not the time nor the thread, etc., etc., etc., and then I get warned by the mods not to talk to him or something crazy.

I agree. Some have even wondered if rdjam and amir are the same person. rdjam has posted multiple false things and then refused to either retract them or have intellectually honest debates on them. He or his brother sent out an email to people who had signed up on their list claiming that if Lionsgate used VC-1 it would mean that they had HD DVD encodes. That wasn't true and after I pointed that out, on two different occasions he tried to make people believe it was true. He tried to get Amir to back him up against me and I'm sure that Amir would have loved to have said that I was wrong and rdjam was right, but he couldn't without it being really obvious to knowledgeable people how wrong he was. Lionsgate has used VC-1 for multiple titles and a claim that this meant they had HD DVD versions was not true. Rdjam seems to want to avoid that discussion, along with the time he claimed that most HD DVD titles were 8-12Mbps. Not true there either. He later claimed that he meant that was the case for recent titles, but that was false too. It seems like he takes some of his stuff from his interpretation of what Amir says, and then when he is wrong, will defend the false stuff or (my guess) try to get the whole discussion deleted.

He has even gone as far as claiming that the PS3 didn't turn the sales around. And that was well into the new year when it was obvious that sales had switched to where Blu-ray was leading every week. As an example, he has an article here:

http://www.hdnowonline.com/Comment_PS3_Launch.html

where the title at the top of my browser reads, "The Failure of the PS3 to Reverse the HD DVD lead". That is from December 3rd, 2006, but he updated it on April 14th, 2007 to make it look like it was right. He claimed then that, "The expected post Christmas surge of BD movie "curiosity" sales by new PS3 owners tapered off in March ...", but the real kicker is what he was using as his proof was Amazon sales, where the timing was very close to when the HD DVD fans on the AVSForum were having one of their buy days to manipulate the rankings on Amazon. Their rankings went up as expected with the buy day, and then right back down. That isn't the only time rdjam has jumped on some rare event to claim that HD DVD sales were the neck and neck with Blu-ray, or higher, even though the logical reason was that event (like when people found a way to get $5 off on Amazon for each title for a few hours that HD DVD fans jumped on more and then later Amazon refused to let it go through on many of those orders, while honoring it on some, but rdjam had already used it as proof that he was right about what sales would do).

rdjam is also one of those who likes to use worldwide numbers for hardware ratios and US for software, or things like that. One time he pulled out some numbers where he had to be doing something like that, and when I questioned him he first used the excuse that his hardware numbers where one way (like US), then when I pointed out how his numbers were wrong then, he claimed they were the other way. Not sure why he couldn't just tell me the truth instead of using one answer to get out of one jam and then a contradictory answer to try to get out of the new jam. rdjam gets mad when I point out a lack of integrity and attempts to deceive people, but I'm just speaking the truth. That is one reason I recommended Kosty. He might be as a big an HD DVD fan as rdjam, but at least Kosty shows integrity.

--Darin

[Luis_A51]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I think what both sides need are level-headed non-insiders to make this work. Rdjam is a case study of someone who would be unsuited; you can't engage him in a discussion because he'll barrel right past facts and sidetrack into a crusade about VC-1. I don't think we've got anyone here who's quite on the same level of oblivious yet still a prolific poster, but it underpins the point that debates are a two way form of communication. That can't happen when one of the parties involved isn't listening.

The reason I specify non-insiders is as was mentioned earlier by someone else; insiders often have their hands tied about what they can and can not say even tangentially about a variety of topics related to the subject matter at hand. This puts them at a serious disadvantage in any discussion where the other side is free to roam on the topic.

Agreed, no insiders. Unless by insider you would mean Richard Casey, since he works in movies but isnt directly tied to either format.

But any who makes money directly from either group (AHEM amir AHEM) shouldnt allowed, and I know that sadly that disqualifies some of our members, but so be it.

[Cplhicks]

The thing I find most amusing about this is that AVS was chosen as the other side of the debate against blu-ray.com. Could there be any greater indicator that AVS is nothing but an HD-DVD lovefest, despite their comments to the contrary? Even Michael Bay's people see it that way. Awesome. Man, I'm glad I stopped frequenting that place. BTW, TF would've sold half a million in HD if blu-ray had been part of the equation.

[clyon]

What we need is a separate thread for those who would like to do this with some info about them like:

Why would you like to do this?
What questions would you ask to hddvd?

[ottscay]

Did anyone volunteer for this? I think Darin should do it if Josh won't/can't, but if niether want to I will volunteer. In my experiece with advocacy work it almost never is a good idea to sit on the sidelines and let the other side make their case, especially if the other side doesn't mind making stuff up (cough, RdJam, cough).

I understand the technical issue fairly well, and have spent a bit of time debating with the RdJam's of the issue (including, of course, the man himself over at AVS), and I think it needs to be done.

[Weez_Dawg]

This is what we need, high profile people coming in and moderating a debate. All the nay sayers will always bark at a good idea. This may not influence anyone who has already chosen a side, but I do see it starting more debates moderated by other high profile people or websites and eventually all the cards will be on the table and clear for everyone to see.

[jw]

Originally Posted by webmaster@michaelbay

He owns both a Blu-ray player and an HD DVD player.

oF COURSE the HDDVD was provided by Toshiba as a house warming gift, since he wont be able to get his films on blu

[Maximus]

Well I am officially out of the running. Legal refused, said they didn't want me to get caught up in a format war style debate with Amir and his band of merry men.

Tbh I don't think I would have been that great anyhow, I can't really talk about most of the stuff that I do at work.

To put the final mail in the coffin Paramount said they would only allow me to do it if my company went public with our involvement in the HDM market, which is something they know we can't risk.

[dobyblue]

Here's one example of rdjam just throwing all logic out the window:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post10645500

From rdjam's "Why VC-1 is so much better" thread

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Of 680 reviews: 431 MPEG-2, 125 AVC/MPEG-4, 124 VC-1
Average star rating

1) 4.22 stars AVC/MPEG-4
2) 3.94 stars VC-1
3) 3.78 stars MPEG-2

Why is VC-1 so much better? You've got me there! I really don't know.

Originally Posted by rdjam

Much of your reviews included in your "total" come from 2 quite biased "review sites" which primarily review Bluray titles and have much fewer HD DVD titles. So your numbers become much less about a scientific sample, than about a sample that has been "weighted" towards Bluray.

The fact is, that HD DVD scores higher overall on PQ than Bluray. So try trying to separate a subset of Bluray reviews to make it look better will be seen as a transparent attempt to do just that.

Sure you will. The fact is that if one looks at the 200-odd "discs" in each format and compares PQ, HD DVD comes out way ahead. But by using multiple reviews for certain discs in your "sample" you end up, whether deliberately or not, fudging the numbers.

And when one realizes that the Bluray-biased sites mostly only have Bluray reviews, one can EASILY see where the BD scores get a boost. Mixing the sites this way simple invites criticism. If you compare the average scores of each format *by Site*, you will have a MUCH more objective result.

Oops - but then we would see which site sticks out like a sore thumb with very high BD PQ scores...

Originally Posted by dobyblue

You try haplessly to reinforce a point you made that wasn't true. You've stated that the two sites that are biased to Blu-ray have, let me quote you "And when one realizes that the Bluray-biased sites mostly only have Bluray reviews, one can EASILY see where the BD scores get a boost"

I'd now like you to explain that for all of us please. YOu can see how many reviews are from each site in this chart.

HDD 132HD/169BD, HTS 137HD/167BD, HTF 36HD/59BD, UD 101HD/89BD, Talk 172HD/203BD
04.25.07

HD DVD	 PQ 	 SQ 	 TOTAL 		Blu-ray	 PQ 	 SQ 	 TOTAL 
HighDef	 3.95 	 3.64 	 3.80 		HighDef	 3.96 	 3.85 	 3.90 
HTSpot	 4.02 	 3.88 	 3.95 		HTSpot	 3.96 	 4.23 	 4.09 
DVDTalk	 3.66 	 3.51 	 3.58 		DVDTalk	 3.60 	 3.67 	 3.63 
HTForum	 4.13 	 3.76 	 3.94 		HTForum	 4.19 	 4.08 	 4.14 
UpDisc	 4.03 	 3.87 	 3.95 		UpDisc	 3.99 	 4.16 	 4.08 
Totals	 3.91 	 3.70 	 3.80 		Totals	 3.88 	 3.95 	 3.91 

The only site I see that DOESN'T have more Blu-ray reviews than HD DVD is Upcoming Discs, so are you suggesting that all four of the other sites are biased?

Well, presuming that Upcoming Discs is one of the sites you're talking about, which of the other ones is biased to Blu-ray?

High Def Digest - Blu-ray ahead by 0.01
Home Theater Spot - HD DVD ahead by 0.06
Home Theater Forum - Blu-ray ahead by 0.06
Upcoming Discs - HD DVD ahead by 0.04
DVD Talk - HD DVD ahead by 0.06
Total PQ - HD DVD ahead by 0.03

Wow rdjam, I thought you said that if you compared all the reviews by site, HD DVD would be far ahead in quality! Isn't that what you said? The fact is that if one looks at the 200-odd "discs" in each format and compares PQ, HD DVD comes out way ahead. But by using multiple reviews for certain discs in your "sample" you end up, whether deliberately or not, fudging the numbers.


So if you take each site individually, which one is it that you note as being "Far ahead" in overall ratings for HD DVD?

Which site do you note as being "sticking out like a sore thumb" in favour of Blu-ray?

Is it fair to say you were just assuming without actually taking the time to research it yourself? Or was it just FUD?

Also you took exception to the fact that there were so few VC-1 reviews compared to the MPEG-2 releases. Dear fellow it was clearly explained that the comparison was for Blu-ray reviews only. That much should have been clear. The codec comparison wasn't "weighted towards Blu-ray"....it was ONLY about Blu-ray.

[dobyblue]

Then he never responds, so I ask him in another thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...m#post10685837

Originally Posted by dobyblue

We all know that rdjam can talk about codecs.

He said in another thread that any review site, when looking at just its reviews, will show that HD DVD is far ahead of Blu-ray on PQ.

Here are the June 1st, 2007 updated review tallies from High Def Digest, Home Theater Spot, Home Theater Forum, Upcoming Discs and DVD Talk. Overall there are 783 Blu-ray reviews and 668 HD DVD reviews.

HDD 159HD/198BD, HTS 159HD/190BD, HTF 43HD/71BD, UD 110HD/104BD, Talk 200HD/222BD
06.01.07

HD DVD	 PQ 	 SQ 	 TOTAL          Blu-ray	 PQ 	 SQ 	 TOTAL  
HighDef	 3.97 	 3.67 	 3.82 	 	 HighDef 3.98 	 3.85 	 3.92  
HTSpot	 4.02 	 3.87 	 3.94  		 HTSpot	 4.02 	 4.25 	 4.13  
DVDTalk	 3.69 	 3.51 	 3.60  		 DVDTalk 3.63 	 3.68 	 3.66  
HTForum	 4.15 	 3.82 	 3.99  		 HTForum 4.27 	 4.09 	 4.18  
UpDisc	 4.04 	 3.86 	 3.95  		 UpDisc	 4.04 	 4.15 	 4.09  
Totals	 3.92 	 3.71 	 3.82  		 Totals	 3.93 	 3.96 	 3.94

For PQ Blu-ray has the lead on two sites, HD DVD has the lead on one and the other two are tied.

All five of course easily have Blu-ray substantially in the lead for SQ compared to the gap in PQ.

Here's another thing you might like to see - all those reviews broken down by studio.

PQ	Studio
 4.17 	Buena Vista
 4.03 	Paramount
 3.98 	Warner
 3.89 	Sony
 3.85 	Weinstein
 3.84 	Universal
 3.84 	Fox
 3.65 	Lionsgate

Sony, with their constant use of MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 is reviewed higher than Universal.

As for PQ, you'd think that would be obvious but you may be surprised.

SQ	Studio
 4.36 	Buena Vista
 4.08 	Sony
 4.08 	Fox
 3.89 	Paramount
 3.87 	Lionsgate
 3.71 	Universal
 3.63 	Warner
 3.56 	Weinstein

Paramount scores higher than Lions Gate despite the latter's use of better audio codecs.

Anyway I'd like rdjam to explain to everyone what he meant by this post.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10655294

Originally Posted by rdjam

A few reviewers have commented that they were kind to Bluray releases and scored more easily on them because of their poor start in the beginning.

I'd recommend you don't try to bring that debate over here too. It already cluttered one thread...

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Wow, there's the biggest FACT DODGE I've ever seen by any poster on this site.

You said that any site looked at by itself will show HD DVD being "far ahead" in PQ ratings.

High Def Digest
HD DVD - 3.97
Blu-ray - 3.98

Home Theater Spot
HD DVD - 4.02
Blu-ray - 4.02

Upcoming Discs
HD DVD - 4.04
Blu-ray - 4.04

Home Theater Forum
HD DVD - 4.15
Blu-ray - 4.27

DVD Talk
HD DVD - 3.69
Blu-ray - 3.63

There are five sites looked at individually. Two are tied, one has HD DVD 0.06 stars ahead, one has Blu-ray 0.12 stars ahead and one has Blu-ray 0.01 stars ahead.

So obvious your previous attempt to brush off the review comparison is as flawed as your current attempt to brush off the fact that you never addressed this point previously, but instead advise me to "not bring that debate here" - what debate? You never debated it!

I haven't seen any reviewer comment that they were kind to Blu-ray in the beginning, that's complete rubbish and total FUD on your part.

PQ Blu-ray Title
1.00 Basic Instict 2
1.00 Robocop
1.00 Kiss of the Dragon
1.50 The Last Waltz
1.50 Full Metal Jacket
1.50 U2: Rattle and Hum
1.50 Kiss of the Dragon
1.50 U2 Rattle and Hum
1.50 Kiss of the Dragon
1.50 A View from Space
2.00 Ricky Bobby
2.00 Hitch
2.00 House of Flying Daggers
2.00 The Terminator
2.00 Lethal Weapn 2
2.00 House of Flying Daggers
2.00 Tears of the Sun
2.00 New Orleans Concert
2.00 Christmas Vacation
2.00 xXx
2.00 xXx
2.00 Ricky Bobby
2.50 Christmas Vacation
2.50 American Psycho
2.50 The Sentinel
2.50 50 First Dates
2.50 Fifth Element
2.50 Lethal Weapon
2.50 Dinosaur
2.50 Jay & Silent Bob
2.50 The Fugitive
2.50 Tomb Raider
2.50 Christmas Vacation
2.50 Planet of the Apes
2.50 House of Flying Daggers
2.50 Hitch
2.50 Fifth Element
2.50 Fifth Element
2.50 50 First Dates
2.50 The Punisher
2.50 Saw
2.50 A View from Space
2.50 A Knight's Tale
2.50 Silent Hill
2.50 The Big Hit
2.50 Dinosaur
2.50 Lethal Weapon
2.50 Haunted Mansion
2.50 Italian Job
2.50 Ricky Bobby
2.50 Toto Live in Amsterdam
2.50 The Tailor of Panama
2.50 Silent Hill
2.50 The Transporter
2.50 The World's Fastest Indian
2.50 Young Guns
2.50 Hoosiers
2.50 Crash
2.50 Reservoir Dogs
2.50 Nature's Colours
2.50 Chris Botti


You be sure and tell us which of these you think the reviewers from those five sites were being kind to m'kay? Please show links or just tell us the reviewers names so we can contact them to acertain this fact.

Originally Posted by rdjam

I'll look it up for you. There were at least two credible reviewers who admitted that they had been more lenient on Bluray releases in their reviews due to Bluray having a poor start.

This is not exactly a secret...

That was on June 3rd.

On June 5th -

Originally Posted by dobyblue

How's that going? Find it yet?

Guess what? Still no sign of that proof that was "not exactly a secret".....(outside rdjam's rather delusional 10cc brain)

[kjack]

I liked how Kosty tried to jump in and volunteer himself...

[gamer4eva]

Originally Posted by glenn22

I would say Josh should take up this challenge... I mean, who could better represent this forum?

totally agreed josh is the guy for the job and he'll know how to shut the fanbois up at AVS

[atdm71]

Team, let's make sure we don't get veer too far off the topic. Remember, Nelson's looking for names, so shall we help the man bring this to closure and submit a candidate?

I'd happily support DobyBlue, JTK, Paidgeek, Penton Man, Wicky Woo, dialog.gvf, Josh or Deciazulado as qualified representatives from Blu-ray.com.

Can we get some names on a poll, please!? I don't know how to start one.

[sj001]

Originally Posted by atdm71

Team, let's make sure we don't get veer too far off the topic. Remember, Nelson's looking for names, so shall we help the man bring this to closure and submit a candidate.

I'd happily support DobyBlue, JTK, Paidgeek, Penton Man, Wicky Woo, dialog.gvf, Josh or Deciazulado as qualified representatives from Blu-ray.com.

Can we get some names on a poll, please!? I don't know how to start one.

I think the ones you listed are qualified, though I don't think we can use true insiders, so that might leave Paid/Penton out... I am not sure how to post a poll either, but that would be a good way to decide. I guess whoever has the strongest desire to engage in this debate, it might be good.

So whomever knows how to post a poll, please do so!

[JTK]

Originally Posted by atdm71

I think this is a great idea. Thank you for reaching out, Webmaster and Michael.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Wicky Woo or JTK?

Much appreciated, but I'm not an insider or someone high up any ladder.

[tru2blu707]

i nominate dobyblue

[turboLAZER]

with over 200 posts on this thread i'm a little surprised nobody has stepped up to volunteer. I read a lot of posts giving excuses why people can't volunteer. this doesn't sound like some sort of official legally binding debate. If you believe that you are an expert on blu-ray step up and volunteer

[atdm71]

Originally Posted by JTK

Much appreciated, but I'm not an insider or someone high up any ladder.

Hey man, I wouldn't put your name forward if I didn't think you could handle it, JTK. And I don't think you need to be either an insider or a big brass player, necessarily. You just need to be well researched on the format, which you are, and see the full picture from every stakeholder's point of view, arguing on its behalf. I'm very confident you "get it", and have the stones to handle yourself capably in the ring.

Doby, Wicky and Dialog are up there too, and again, while I'm unsure how much of a Transformer's fan he is, Damonous on High Def Digest would also do us Blue guys proud.

But step up JTK, you got my vote man.

[JTK]

^^ Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by tru2blu707

i nominate dobyblue

^^ This is one of several of my picks easily. Doby, Wicky, Gary, Deci, Goldie...hell of any of our mods and insiders are a given.

^^ These folks easily have me beat when it comes to really getting down to hardcore techincal details and such.

BTBuck has a bunch of experience with both formats and his preference for Blu is well known and I feel like he knows how to cut through biases on both sides and simply "tell it like it is."

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by sj001

I think the ones you listed are qualified, though I don't think we can use true insiders, so that might leave Paid/Penton out...

I think that’s an excellent idea to exclude us, as we like Max, are bound by certain restrictions that *the other side* might well take advantage of.

I was serious though in my offer to the webmaster about a meet with Michael over lunch to discuss the strengths of the Blu-ray format.