Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Batman1980

Wonder how that would affect my ability to watch DCs off a memory card on my tablet, kinda worried now.

Wouldn't know, I don't watch films on tablets. To be fair, you said you do everything through Vudu, so I presumed that meant continuing to purchase films in Vudu and watch them indefinitely on all your devices. I'm not a mind reader.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by huskerbear

Can you explain why it needs replaced vs getting the other store fronts to join? Take away consumer friendly stuff like D2D or sharing then they join? Is there a poison pill in the contract keeping them from joining or do they really not want consumers to be able to buy ANY movie elsewhere and watch it on their system? At this point I think they are starting to hurt themselves, because:

" Vudu is a niche" I think you are way off with this

The way uv was set up was almost an insult for the major providers. The studios thought companies like iTunes, amazon etc took to big a percentage so they tried to cut into their pie by making their own substandard streaming services and adding them into uv to take a piece of the pie. They also started pointing people to their own services for redeeming digital copies which became horribly confusing for consumers but probably made them more money under however uv was set up. Studios used uv as a way to double dip into the providers pockets so of course none of the providers with any market share joined uv.

So its pretty obvious why uv failed when you look at it from a provider standpoint its like a few mom and pop stores forming an alliance and asking Walmart or amazon to join and share the cash. It was formed but uv did not really offer anything to iTunes, amazon etc that they did not already have before uv existed.

[huskerbear]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

People don't care who is to blame or backggrpund, they just care how they access movies. The idea was to be able to buy from any storefront and be able to store all those movies in a locker. Ultraviolet has failed miserably with that. Google Play, Amazon, ITunes, PlayStation store video, Sky (UK) and Disney are all huge players that do not work with UV. Will that be rectified? I don't believe it will. If Digital HD starts dropping, which is very possible considering very small digit growth (virtually flatline IMO) Vudu will be dropped. Just look at iTunes music downloads. There is talk of Apple killing them off in the next couple of years. That's one of the things with digital, I don't see how one can love films but not want to preserve them and risk losing access to films or for a storefront to be dropped like a bad habit.

Anyway, I'm leaving if there. I have already discussed all this and this thread is just going in circles.

Respect for your replies, I appreciate them.

Who knows but, remember, at the end of the day 80% of the content belongs to studios backing UV.

[huskerbear]

Originally Posted by veritas

The way uv was set up was almost an insult for the major providers. The studios thought companies like iTunes, amazon etc took to big a percentage so they tried to cut into their pie by making their own substandard streaming services and adding them into uv to take a piece of the pie. They also started pointing people to their own services for redeeming digital copies which became horribly confusing for consumers but probably made them more money under however uv was set up. Studios used uv as a way to double dip into the providers pockets so of course none of the providers with any market share joined uv.

So its pretty obvious why uv failed when you look at it from a provider standpoint its like a few mom and pop stores forming an alliance and asking Walmart or amazon to join and share the cash. It was formed but uv did not really offer anything to iTunes, amazon etc that they did not already have before uv existed.

Lemme guess, you were doing itunes before UV

But seriously, it's not like they excluded anybody. In fact they let people join the DECE help to put it all together........the notables that didn't even join to help put UV together....that's right, Disney and Apple....... who 2 years later hooked up to form their own "UV" with an Apple exclusive of course...... Maybe they should have given Apple an exclusive? But that would be difficult how they snubbed the DECE from word go. They were not going to be happy until the studios forgot their whole idea and go back to, if you want a digital copy on your tv, buy Apple!
I wonder if the millions using UV with Vudu feel like Ultraviolet "failed" because it sure doesn't seem like it to me but hey, who knows..... like I said it all works great for me...peace out.

[dublinbluray108]

According to these recent figures below; there is a concern from these business experts that Physical media sales are expected to fall dramatically.

http://www.rapidtvnews.com/201702024...#axzz4XqgYT6p0

Global packaged video spend is in decline, with the deficit not being made up by transactional digital.

Annual spend across DVD and Blu-ray fell by 13% to $21.6 billion in 2015 and is expected to fall to $9.1 billion by 2020. For 2016, an exceptionally strong late 2015 theatrical slate converted well to home video unit sell-through, the market also received a minor boost from the introduction of an even more premium tier of Blu-ray, Ultra HD.

However, the global rate of decline in dollar terms increased to 17% due to fluctuations in the exchange rate.

The article also said the following

There are currently 236 millions subscriptions worldwide & is expected to more than double to 485 million by 2020.

How can we expect that the global number of subscriptions rise to that many people over a sustained period of time?

How come that many can go to streaming services at a rate that fast? The global subscription figures right now look quite dramatic if you ask me.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by dublinbluray108

http://www.rapidtvnews.com/201702024...#axzz4XqgYT6p0

Notice that right at the top of the article it says pay TV still accounts for 86% of global home entertainment spending. That's the market that streaming is most similar to. If a lot of people switch from cable or satellite subscriptions to streaming subscriptions in the next decade or two the studios will lose hundreds of billions of dollars.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well you put up some impressive numbers, and I can see that Streaming Video Quality is rapidly replacing Disc, especially with the new Codec H.265. I agree that Amazon and Vudu outperform the rest in PQ/AQ with iTunes a close third. I have always said that Bandwidth and Access has a lot to do with Streaming Performance. Thank you so much for these results, it puts credibility to Streaming Video.

Originally Posted by dublinbluray108

According to these recent figures below; there is a concern from these business experts that Physical media sales are expected to fall dramatically.

http://www.rapidtvnews.com/201702024...#axzz4XqgYT6p0

Originally Posted by Lowenbotten

Knock it off already. It's not "rapidly replacing disc". You've already been shown this is false and you've admitted you're a troll. You constantly claim things that have been proven to be wrong.

Do you say these things just to make yourself feel better about choosing digital over disc?

There is no reason for name calling, you like to use this word troll which is a person that goes from Site to Site causing problems. You're just a junior member, I have been here many years and we are in a Physical or Digital Tread. Maybe I should have chosen my words and said the viewing preference is changing from Physical to Digital HD. More information is coming out that Physical Media is on the decline, you can see it at the stores Blu-rays just sitting on the selves. Even people from stores like Best Buy say Discs are not moving. Don't worry though, Discs will be around for a while, but if people aren't paying what I call Market Value. Discs will fade away fast!

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

There is no reason for name calling, you like to use this word troll which is a person that goes from Site to Site causing problems. You're just a junior member, I have been here many years and we are in a Physical or Digital Tread. Maybe I should have chose my words and said the viewing preference is changing from Physical to Digital HD. More information is coming out that Physical Media is on the decline, you can see it at the stores Blu-rays just sitting on the selves. Even people from stores like Best Buy say Discs are not moving. Don't worry though, Discs will be around for a while, but if people aren't paying what I call Market Value. Discs will fade away fast!

But that's not happening at a fast rate. Discs are declining and digital subscriptions are rapidly getting more popular. But digital purchases are staying about the same and they're selling way less than discs. Considerably less people are paying market value for digital purchases than discs and there's no indication that will change. For most people the main advantage of digital is price... but that draws people to digital subscriptions, not digital purchases.

And stores declining in sales tells me that people are shopping online, not that they're buying digital. All of my purchases are physical media, but 95% of them are purchased online. Best Buy may say that discs are selling poorly, but I'd be curious to know if Amazon thinks that discs are selling poorly.

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Here is some real world data pertaining to streaming bitrates.
I tested a HD movie across 5 different services for comparison.
I chose a Disney movie so there wouldn’t be any confusion with 4K or UHD.
Iron Man was chosen because it was offered across the most of my services.

Equipment
Cisco DPC3008 cable modem
Cisco ASA 5505 [ASA 9.2(4)5] [ASDM 7.6(2)]
Comcast Internet 150mb down
ROKU 2 connected to Ethernet port and its own VLAN on the router.

I am aware that different platforms and different apps may perform entirely different. These are the results I got using the same equipment for the same movie.

Notes: DMA uses a multiple server environment to stream your movie. They seem to have a startup server that gets the movie started and them dumps it off to multiple servers to carry the load throughout the movie. The other services tested all used a single server setup for your personal stream. (Meaning that the services all have hundreds of servers, but you’ll only connect to one of them for the entirety of the stream.)

I don’t know what’s up with Google, but their service on ROKU is abysmal. I tested it multiple times on multiple days and got pretty much the same result. I don’t remember Google Play being so bad, but they recently updated their app (you have to set it up on your phone now.. for Roku!) so maybe it’s just the new app. The thing is, the test movie was purchased from Google! Lol.

I understand that there is compression and they all use it, but movies only compress so far and no one out there has a miracle compression system. They’re all within a stone’s throw of one another.

I’ve included burst rates and streaming averages, but the true number is seen in the total data downloaded.

Movie:
Iron Man (2008) HD
I took the same 16 minute slice of the movie across all services. All data recorded started at the press of the play button at the beginning of the movie and stopped at the moment of the Jericho demonstration explosion.

Test:
DMA
Time to start movie – 27secs
Max burst rate – 35000kbs (35mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 5166kbs (5.1mb)
Streaming rate – 3500kbs (3.5mb)
Total data downloaded – 496mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 2.0
Port – 80
Server(s) - 23.216.55.35 | 23.205.120.56 & 23.205.12.34 - Akamai Technologies

VUDU
Time to start movie – 7 secs
Max burst rate – 52000kbs (52mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 12281kbs (12.2mb)
Streaming rate – 9100kbs (9.1mb)
Total data downloaded – 1179mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 5.1
Port – 80
Server(s) – 72.21.81.254 - MCI Communications Services

Google
Time to start movie – 33secs
Max burst rate – 3200kbs (3.2mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 1072kbs (1.1mb)
Streaming rate – 900kbs (0.9mb)
Total data downloaded – 103mb
Video – 1080 (?)
Audio – DD 5.1
Port – 443
Server(s) – 173.194.24.250 - Google Inc.

Amazon
Time to start movie – 16secs
Max burst rate – 20000kbs (20mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 13395kbs (13.4mb)
Streaming rate – 9300kbs (9.3mb)
Total data downloaded – 1286mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 5.1
Port – 80
Server(s) – 54.182.205.33 - Amazon Technologies Inc.

Hulu
Time to start movie – 36secs
Max burst rate – 27000kbs (27mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 8114kbs (8.1mb)
Streaming rate – 6100kbs (6.1mb)
Total data downloaded – 779mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 2.0
Port – 80
Server(s) – 152.195.3.40 - ANS Communications, Inc

Eventually I'll do a full movie test, but that's time consuming and will show results close to this anyway.

I'm not calling you out or anything but those DMA numbers have got to be wrong or I have no idea what the hell I'm reading (which is likely).

The only reason I'm saying this, and I'm no expert, but when I airplay my DMA collection to my Apple TV, I am getting Blu Ray level quality picture. I've done the comparisons between DMA via AirPlay vs. iTunes vs. disc vs. Netflix and I'm telling you DMA via AirPlay is extraordinary at how close it comes to providing a picture close to the disc. I mean extremely close. It blows iTunes of the water. Not sure about DMA movies via Vudu but I'm betting that DMA via AirPlay still beats Vudu.

Just so you know, I'm getting about 325mbps on average via LAN and 29mbps via wifi with my home network.

DMA via AirPlay is one of the main reasons why I've started to second guess buying Disney discs. I don't know what tech they're using but when they recently updated the DMA app to allow AirPlay, it changed the game for me in quite a few ways.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

But that's not happening at a fast rate. Discs are declining and digital subscriptions are rapidly getting more popular. But digital purchases are staying about the same and they're selling way less than discs. Considerably less people are paying market value for digital purchases than discs and there's no indication that will change. For most people the main advantage of digital is price... but that draws people to digital subscriptions, not digital purchases.

And stores declining in sales tells me that people are shopping online, not that they're buying digital. All of my purchases are physical media, but 95% of them are purchased online. Best Buy may say that discs are selling poorly, but I'd be curious to know if Amazon thinks that discs are selling poorly.

Exactly right. I buy my entire bulk of discs on Amazon. Have done for many years. Before that, it was play (UK site)

Digital HD is not replacing disc. The studios wish it was, but that is not the truth. Even the early windows haven't changed things much. That's why the likes of Apple are trying to get new releases out there just two weeks after cinema release. They are throwing everything at Digital HD, but people (in my opinion) are just streaming Netflix, Amazon, HBO etc.. and probably just catching the odd rental or purchase such as Star Wars or Big blockbusters, even then many are going with disc for that.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

There is no reason for name calling, you like to use this word troll which is a person that goes from Site to Site causing problems. You're just a junior member, I have been here many years and we are in a Physical or Digital Tread. Maybe I should have chosen my words and said the viewing preference is changing from Physical to Digital HD. More information is coming out that Physical Media is on the decline, you can see it at the stores Blu-rays just sitting on the selves. Even people from stores like Best Buy say Discs are not moving. Don't worry though, Discs will be around for a while, but if people aren't paying what I call Market Value. Discs will fade away fast!

Your replies are a bit flamey though in my opinion. You always end your posts with some cheap shot at discs when you talk about fibre and how great Digital is. If I remember right, you are a older gentleman, I would have thought you would be more interested in picture quality/audio than anything else?

noy saying for a second, you are a troll. I don't think you are. I do think you like stirring the pot though!

Anyway,I am out of here!

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Exactly right. I buy my entire bulk of discs on Amazon. Have done for many years. Before that, it was play (UK site)

Digital HD is not replacing disc. The studios wish it was, but that is not the truth. Even the early windows haven't changed things much. That's why the likes of Apple are trying to get new releases out there just two weeks after cinema release. They are throwing everything at Digital HD, but people (in my opinion) are just streaming Netflix, Amazon, HBO etc.. and probably just catching the odd rental or purchase such as Star Wars or Big blockbusters, even then many are going with disc for that.

As a supporter of all formats, both physical and digital, subscription is the Blockbuster for the average consumer now. As much as I love the benefits of Digital HD via iTunes, numbers just don't lie. It ain't replacing discs. Discs are still around but they're not the be all to end all either. Now, it's all about the all you can eat buffet of subscription. Hell, some of the Digital HD purchases I've made over the years, I'm starting to regret because hell, they show up on Netflix, Amazon, Crackle, HBO, or Showtime eventually and sometimes I catch myself watching on those services instead of watching the digital purchase I made on iTunes (not often but it has happened).

Honestly, the sole reason why I purchase digital instead of staying fully with subscriptions services; ORIGINAL ASPECT RATIO.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

As a supporter of all formats, both physical and digital, subscription is the Blockbuster for the average consumer now. As much as I love the benefits of Digital HD via iTunes, numbers just don't lie. It ain't replacing discs. Discs are still around but they're not the be all to end all either. Now, it's all about the all you can eat buffet of subscription. Hell, some of the Digital HD purchases I've made over the years, I'm starting to regret because hell, they show up on Netflix, Amazon, Crackle, HBO, or Showtime eventually and sometimes I catch myself watching on those services instead of watching the digital purchase I made on iTunes (not often but it has happened).

Honestly, the sole reason why I purchase digital instead of staying fully with subscriptions services; ORIGINAL ASPECT RATIO.

Yep, I have been saying subscription is king for a long time. For collectors, disc is always the way forward. The thing about subscription though, soon they be pushing their own content more and more which will leave far less space for licensed content (films) what happens then, nobody knows!

Now, I'm leaving the thread. Just thought I would reply to you out of courtesy.

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yep, I have been saying subscription is king for a long time. For collectors, disc is always the way forward. The thing about subscription though, soon they be pushing their own content more and more which will leave far less space for licensed content (films) what happens then, nobody knows!

Now, I'm leaving the thread. Just thought I would reply to you out of courtesy.

As long as HBO and Showtime and Cable are around, licensed content will still be found. Remember, if you still have Cable, that's how a lot of people rediscover movies...on Cable. It's not the best way to rediscover an old film but that's how it mostly happens for the average consumer.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

There is no reason for name calling, you like to use this word troll which is a person that goes from Site to Site causing problems. You're just a junior member, I have been here many years and we are in a Physical or Digital Tread. Maybe I should have chosen my words and said the viewing preference is changing from Physical to Digital HD. More information is coming out that Physical Media is on the decline, you can see it at the stores Blu-rays just sitting on the selves. Even people from stores like Best Buy say Discs are not moving. Don't worry though, Discs will be around for a while, but if people aren't paying what I call Market Value. Discs will fade away fast!

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Your replies are a bit flamey though in my opinion. You always end your posts with some cheap shot at discs when you talk about fibre and how great Digital is. If I remember right, you are a older gentleman, I would have thought you would be more interested in picture quality/audio than anything else?

noy saying for a second, you are a troll. I don't think you are. I do think you like stirring the pot though!

Anyway,I am out of here!

Well I have been around the block a few times, and I'm always up for some good discussions. I just didn't like the way Digital HD lacked respect. Now with supportive information, it's looking better. Like I have said before, I was Streaming DVD Quality Video/Audio from my Home Server Decades Ago. So I knew for a fact it was possible to get High Quality Streaming Video/Audio. I guess bottom line Digital HD is getting better everyday, and it will be mainstream before we know it.

[Supermartyoh]

Physcial for things I must have as though that has its issues as well, theres more content already available and not as many limitations or absurd DRM rules as opposed to streaming.

For stuff that ether was not released on any format, has different (newer or sometimes older) masters compared to the DVD or BD, or is too scarce/expensive on physcial format while its available on streaming for much cheaper or sometimes free, i do streaming in those instinces.

[Ray Jackson]

Does anyone think there is any noticeable difference in the PQ between a film streamed on Vudu vs. a blu-ray disc?

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Does anyone think there is any noticeable difference in the PQ between a film streamed on Vudu vs. a blu-ray disc?

I am pretty sure most could tell vudu from a blu ray on a double blind test. alchav21 is the only one that I have seen arguing that vudu = blu ray quality. Vudu simply doesn't have the bit rate to compete with blu ray so it has noticeable flaws when side by side. It gets a bit harder when you are comparing 4k to blu rays as they both can win their own individual aspects. I do still think blu ray looks better then 4k streams but it starts to become a matter of personal opinion similar to itunes vs vudu quality discussions.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Does anyone think there is any noticeable difference in the PQ between a film streamed on Vudu vs. a blu-ray disc?

Originally Posted by veritas

I am pretty sure most could tell vudu from a blu ray on a double blind test. alchav21 is the only one that I have seen arguing that vudu = blu ray quality. Vudu simply doesn't have the bit rate to compete with blu ray so it has noticeable flaws when side by side. It gets a bit harder when you are comparing 4k to blu rays as they both can win their own individual aspects. I do still think blu ray looks better then 4k streams but it starts to become a matter of personal opinion similar to itunes vs vudu quality discussions.

The Key Word here is Noticeable, I think with the proper set up and Bandwidth the differences are negligible. People will come on and say they see all kinds of flaws, but it's all perceived differences. Digital HD has come a long way, and it's just getting better day by day.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The Key Word here is Noticeable, I think with the proper set up and Bandwidth the differences are negligible. People will come on and say they see all kinds of flaws, but it's all perceived differences. Digital HD has come a long way, and it's just getting better day by day.

Well ya if I am watching a movie on my ipod or watch then the difference between blu ray and vhs quality would be negligable.

If your set up is pushed to its limits by vudu then bd will look more or less the same as vudu. We arent talking about bandwidth improving vudu we are actually talking about your set up bringing down bd to vudus level

I mean we have been telling you for months that it doesn't matter what your bandwidth is vudu doesnt push its bit rate up past 9 or 10 mb. Its much more believable that your set up has placed a ceiling the quality you receive which brings bd down to vudus level.