Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

I'm happy to answer questions here, so ask away. I run an Apple TV and a Kaleidescape system in my theater (plus gaming hardware). No more discs and no more ripping for me.

I also use an ATV 4K it’s great. I also agree with ditching the DIY Nas server though I still use mine I’m slowly reducing it to only essential things.

I’ve never been interested in Kaliedesscape system though it sounds like there are a few interesting reasons to have one.

More than anything I’m using discs directly lately and it’s been better than ever. I have them all organized and accessible and while I appreciate people having shuffled discs enough I’m on the other side of that with UHD BD my current favorite way to view content.

[JohnAV]

Regal Cinemas, AMC Theatres set new reopening dates for movie theaters - Syracuse 7/28/20

Regal Cinemas announced Tuesday that it plans to reopen U.S. theaters on Aug. 21, just in time for the newly announced release date of Christopher Nolan’s “Tenet.” The “Inception” director’s highly anticipated new film will hit theaters in 70 countries on Aug. 26 and U.S. theaters on Sept. 3.

Deadline reports AMC Theatres, the nation’s largest chain of movie theaters, now plans to open in mid-to-late August, also in time for “Tenet.” The company currently has a third of its locations in Europe and the Middle East open and operating normally.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

Some pages back there was some discussion about the Bill Hunt Kaleidescape article and Kaleidescape in particular.

I'm an owner. I have been using a system for ~18+ months after having been a physical media user and then having managed a large NAS of ripped content. So, well versed on both sides.

Kaleidescape won me over as I was simply tired of managing physical media and the server work that comes with DIY. I find myself watching more content and enjoying more content vs. tinkering with content nowadays. I was also drawn to logistical items like the higher bit rates vs. disc, their ability to update/improvement/fix titles, and the 370+ more titles on Kaleidescape in 4k than have been released on disc.

Seems like there were some misunderstandings/misconceptions earlier too. One being that you need your whole Kaleidescape library stored locally. You really don't.

A Strato 6TB is a complete Kaleidescape system that can serve all your needs regardless of how much content you own. Your store purchases are kept in your account, and you can freely download/redownload. A 6TB Strato will hold 100+ 4k titles. Plenty of space to store a lot of favorites, then you can just cycle content as you see fit. 100+ titles is plenty to choose from on any given night, and that Strato can download a 4k movie in ~45 minutes or less.

You only need a Terra and all the extra storage if you have a specific reason or because you want it and you have the money to buy it. So, don't discount using a Kaleidescape because of storage costs or limits.

I'm happy to answer questions here, so ask away. I run an Apple TV and a Kaleidescape system in my theater (plus gaming hardware). No more discs and no more ripping for me.

I'm glad that you like it. For what it costs, you damn well should.

I am very open to the concept of a download system if it were free of DRM and the need for proprietary hardware and software. I also do not trust any conventional hard drives for the long term storage of data.

The reason why it is ideal to download your entire library is that content that is in your possession can not be edited or censored or even removed entirely. Also, in the case of a system like Kaleidescape should their store close, and they have teetered on the edge of bankruptcy a few times already, then whatever you don't have downloaded would be lost forever. When your Strato dies, you would also lose what is on it because the DRM prevents you from cloning the hard drive within it. I would never put all my eggs in the Kaleidescape basket. If they fold as a company, and they have come close, you would lose BIG.

I need my entire library to be in my home and the amount of hard drive space that would require is immense and at Kaleidescape prices it would be astronomical.

My other objection is that the cost for their hardware is obscene for what amounts to nothing but a proprietary system based upon a conventional hard drive. There is just no good reason for a 6TB hard drive, the Strato S, to cost $5994.68. None.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/kaleide...?skuId=6338590

The Strato S 6TB unit costs $1494.69 more than a LG 77" OLED TV; which is utterly in my opinion.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-77-c...?skuId=6401914

The prices in their movie store are no bargain, either. I can easily buy the 4K disc for less and it typically includes a blu-ray copy and a digital copy; three ways to watch the movie for less money. I can also use any disc player, or streaming device for the digital copy, from any company that I choose. I am not locked to a single hardware provider. Even Apple and iTunes are comparatively an open eco system at far lower cost than the Kaleidescape one. Apple has never come close to failing as a company, either.

[bhampton]

I have personally never liked kaleidoscape. I’m not sure why. Back in the days of dvd they seemed to be bordering on illegal and had legal problems and court battles.

They went out of business once and I have no problem believing they will again..

However, pro athletes And other people with too much money need expensive toys so I’m happy they are there for them for now.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am very open to the concept of a download system if it were free of DRM and the need for proprietary hardware and software. I also do not trust any conventional hard drives for the long term storage of data.

I had not the most pleasant experience with preconfigured RAIDs where the actual RAID controller dies, and the company no longer sells that box. Hey what I do with raided HDD's then?

A interesting study of HDD reliability from backblaze

2019 Hard Drive Failure Rates
At the end of 2019 Backblaze was monitoring 122,658 hard drives used to store data. For our evaluation we remove from consideration those drives that were used for testing purposes and those drive models for which we did not have at least 5,000 drive days during Q4 (see notes and observations for why). This leaves us with 122,507 hard drives. The table below covers what happened in 2019.

Note the failure rate of the largest HDD's.

[TrackZ]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I'm glad that you like it. For what it costs, you damn well should.

I am very open to the concept of a download system if it were free of DRM and the need for proprietary hardware and software. I also do not trust any conventional hard drives for the long term storage of data.

The reason why it is ideal to download your entire library is that content that is in your possession can not be edited or censored or even removed entirely. Also, in the case of a system like Kaleidescape should their store close, and they have teetered on the edge of bankruptcy a few times already, then whatever you don't have downloaded would be lost forever. When your Strato dies, you would also lose what is on it because the DRM prevents you from cloning the hard drive within it. I would never put all my eggs in the Kaleidescape basket. If they fold as a company, and they have come close, you would lose BIG.

I need my entire library to be in my home and the amount of hard drive space that would require is immense and at Kaleidescape prices it would be astronomical.

My other objection is that the cost for their hardware is obscene for what amounts to nothing but a proprietary system based upon a conventional hard drive. There is just no good reason for a 6TB hard drive, the Strato S, to cost $5994.68. None.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/kaleide...?skuId=6338590

The Strato S 6TB unit costs $1494.69 more than a LG 77" OLED TV; which is utterly in my opinion.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-77-c...?skuId=6401914

The prices in their movie store are no bargain, either. I can easily buy the 4K disc for less and it typically includes a blu-ray copy and a digital copy; three ways to watch the movie for less money. I can also use any disc player, or streaming device for the digital copy, from any company that I choose. I am not locked to a single hardware provider. Even Apple and iTunes are comparatively an open eco system at far lower cost than the Kaleidescape one. Apple has never come close to failing as a company, either.

I don't think you'll ever find a DRM free download system for movie or video content at high fidelity. It's not even a matter of Kaleidescape or whomever offering it as the studios are not going to give that to us.

In the case of Kaleidescape, hard drives don't really matter. Your purchases are resident in your account, not just your local copy. If your system died or HD failed, you'd get it replaced and then redownload your stuff.

That's one big failure mode of most DIY systems. Folks are not backing up their processed rips and are using RAID as their protection. When that array goes, all that work is gone in that case.

I'll caveat this post by acknowledging I have gigabit internet and no data caps. That certainly makes using Kaleidescape much simpler than if I had low bandwidth or a small cap.

Just curious, why do you need your library to be 100% resident locally? What's your use case?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

I don't think you'll ever find a DRM free download system for movie or video content at high fidelity. It's not even a matter of Kaleidescape or whomever offering it as the studios are not going to give that to us.

In the case of Kaleidescape, hard drives don't really matter. Your purchases are resident in your account, not just your local copy. If your system died or HD failed, you'd get it replaced and then redownload your stuff.

That's one big failure mode of most DIY systems. Folks are not backing up their processed rips and are using RAID as their protection. When that array goes, all that work is gone in that case.

I'll caveat this post by acknowledging I have gigabit internet and no data caps. That certainly makes using Kaleidescape much simpler than if I had low bandwidth or a small cap.

Just curious, why do you need your library to be 100% resident locally? What's your use case?

I do not believe for an instant that we will ever be able to legally download movies with the freedom that we can with music, but that is the only way that I would agree to do it.

Hard drives do matter because if Kaleidescape closes you won't be re-downloading anything. Once that Strato S fails, you will also lose what is on it. At $5994.68 who exactly is paying to replace it? Kaleidescape? Not if they go under or if it is past the 3 year warranty period. A hard drive that costs that much should have a lifetime warranty. Kaleidescape has a troubled financial history and I do not trust them to endure.

I need all of my content to be in my home because first and foremost I insist upon having full control over it. Anything not in my possession can be edited, censored, or even removed entirely. That risk may be small and acceptable to some people, but it is not a risk that I am willing to take for movies that I have purchased. In this era of hyper sensitivity to anything that may even remotely offend anyone, the "cleansing" of content concerns me greatly.

My internet service delivers about 235 Mbps download with a 2TB monthly data cap, but my ISP is also notoriously unreliable and I do not like being dependent upon it for accessing movies that I have purchased.

Then there is the cost of the Kaleidescape proprietary eco system; there is just no way that I can justify their prices and I am someone that can readily justify spending $500 per month on discs. I am an easy sell when it comes to movies and home theater gear, but I refuse to pay Kaleidescape prices to be totally dependent upon one company with a dicey history.

[TrackZ]

With your perspective and demands then, it's not really a solution. Makes sense. I'm OK with the risk factors.

I wouldn't spend money on the hardware and content if I didn't feel reasonably confident about their place and longevity in business. I don't get why folks are so rattled by a company having struggled when they survived and are thriving in the market showing new products and expansion.

Apple nearly went bankrupt in the late '90s. Do folks not buy iPhones or Macs because of that? Marvel did too. Do folks avoid their movies and content?

If Kaleidescape did falter, to me, it's doesn't matter how many movies I had bought and kept locally. I'd dump the new paper weights and move on. If that comes to pass, there is no equitable solution and I'm not going back to disc collecting, so I'd just switch over to my iTunes library and use that. Maybe I'd rent discs for a first watch, but would continue to buy/build/use my collection on iTunes.

[bhampton]

I consider iTunes a better option over K.

I actually considered using iTunes for almost everything but I lost access to some of my movies at one point and they also don’t have high quality audio. If they had 4K download ability that would help a lot.

So, I’m back to discs and loving it.

[octagon]

Pants schmants.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

With your perspective and demands then, it's not really a solution. Makes sense. I'm OK with the risk factors.

I wouldn't spend money on the hardware and content if I didn't feel reasonably confident about their place and longevity in business. I don't get why folks are so rattled by a company having struggled when they survived and are thriving in the market showing new products and expansion.

Apple nearly went bankrupt in the late '90s. Do folks not buy iPhones or Macs because of that? Marvel did too. Do folks avoid their movies and content?

If Kaleidescape did falter, to me, it's doesn't matter how many movies I had bought and kept locally. I'd dump the new paper weights and move on. If that comes to pass, there is no equitable solution and I'm not going back to disc collecting, so I'd just switch over to my iTunes library and use that. Maybe I'd rent discs for a first watch, but would continue to buy/build/use my collection on iTunes.

I am glad that you are happy with your choice, but I can't sink that much money and place that much faith in a single company with a checkered past.

Is Kaleidescape really "thriving?" I can't easily find any recent financial information about them. And what new products other than more movie titles being added to their store? What "expansion?" All I find are the same pieces of exorbitantly priced hardware as before.

Obviously, there is no comparison between Apple's financial success and that of Kaleidescape. Buying an iPhone or a Mac does not carry much risk as other manufacturers make phones and computers.

Disney bought Marvel in 2009 for $4 billion and that is the wind in their sails.

Anyway, I hope that Kaleidescape endures for all those that have so very much invested in it. I do not like to see anyone lose their money even if they can shrug it off easily.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

Pants schmants.

[Show spoiler]

I sure hope that you cleared your post with Barney Fife beforehand.

[octagon]

[JohnAV]

AMC, Universal Agree to Trim Theatrical Window Before Movies Go Online - WSJ 7/28/30

Deal reduces period from months to weeks during which films appear in cinemas before being released for home viewing

Future movies from Universal Pictures will come to online platforms like iTunes and Apple TV just 17 days after a theatrical release following a deal between Universal and AMC Theaters. The deal — which presently only covers AMC's U.S. locations

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

AMC, Universal Agree to Trim Theatrical Window Before Movies Go Online - WSJ 7/28/30


Future movies from Universal Pictures will come to online platforms like iTunes and Apple TV just 17 days after a theatrical release following a deal between Universal and AMC Theaters. The deal — which presently only covers AMC's U.S. locations

Apples belong in a pie and not among my content providers.

[TrackZ]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am glad that you are happy with your choice, but I can't sink that much money and place that much faith in a single company with a checkered past.

Is Kaleidescape really "thriving?" I can't easily find any recent financial information about them. And what new products other than more movie titles being added to their store? What "expansion?" All I find are the same pieces of exorbitantly priced hardware as before.

Obviously, there is no comparison between Apple's financial success and that of Kaleidescape. Buying an iPhone or a Mac does not carry much risk as other manufacturers make phones and computers.

Disney bought Marvel in 2009 for $4 billion and that is the wind in their sails.

Anyway, I hope that Kaleidescape endures for all those that have so very much invested in it. I do not like to see anyone lose their money even if they can shrug it off easily.

It's a private company, not publicly held, so you can't get open financial data.

My expansion comments come from the fact that in the last few years, the company has pivoted their product line from a disc-focused solution to a unique digital download solution and has a grown a content store from scratch incredibly well. Every major movie studio and plenty of smaller ones have signed deals and are selling content in the store, which continues to add new sources every few months. They are adding software features and firmware updates regularly to the current devices and getting all the new content, including the pre-theatrical releases, with plenty of catalog titles.

The Strato and Terra devices have evolved slightly from the original Strato to the new S and C models. I expect we will see more devices in the future, but the current set serves the needs of the users and the platform. These aren't devices that are revisioned every year, like a Roku or a phone. Given what they cost, that's a virtue.

I expect to see great, new things (in terms of software and possibly hardware) in the year or so ahead.

It's good to have multiple options on the market though with high fidelity physical and digital options as well as streaming when cost and access matters more than quality. In reality, unless your system is a 75"+ display with at least some level of discrete speaker system, you should just stream anyway. I only use my Kaleidescape in my dedicated theater room.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

It's a private company, not publicly held, so you can't get open financial data.

My expansion comments come from the fact that in the last few years, the company has pivoted their product line from a disc-focused solution to a unique digital download solution and has a grown a content store from scratch incredibly well. Every major movie studio and plenty of smaller ones have signed deals and are selling content in the store, which continues to add new sources every few months. They are adding software features and firmware updates regularly to the current devices and getting all the new content, including the pre-theatrical releases, with plenty of catalog titles.

The Strato and Terra devices have evolved slightly from the original Strato to the new S and C models. I expect we will see more devices in the future, but the current set serves the needs of the users and the platform. These aren't devices that are revisioned every year, like a Roku or a phone. Given what they cost, that's a virtue.

I expect to see great, new things (in terms of software and possibly hardware) in the year or so ahead.

It's good to have multiple options on the market though with high fidelity physical and digital options as well as streaming when cost and access matters more than quality. In reality, unless your system is a 75"+ display with at least some level of discrete speaker system, you should just stream anyway. I only use my Kaleidescape in my dedicated theater room.

Then how do you know that it is a "thriving" company?

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a Kaleidescape system in action, but the experience would have to be revelatory on a biblical scale to tempt me to sell a kidney to buy into it.

I have to disagree with your last remark. The limitations of streaming are apparent on much smaller displays than 75". I easily noticed streaming's compression artifacts on my 60" 4K 3D display and I really notice them on my newer 85" display.

As for the audio, I need to upgrade my AVR and expand my speaker array to implement ATMOS. If I would stop buying so many discs, I'd get it done a hell of a lot faster.

[TrackZ]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Then how do you know that it is a "thriving" company?

I have to disagree with your last remark. The limitations of streaming are apparent on much smaller displays than 75". I easily noticed streaming's compression artifacts on my 60" 4K 3D display and I really notice them on my newer 85" display.

Conjecture, mostly, per my prior comments. They have done a lot in a few years now. I can't imagine they could have closed all the content deals they have without enough presence and stability for the many studios to devote resources to uniquely and specifically work with them.

I have a 135" Stewart and JVC NX7 with 7.2.4 Focal/REL/Marantz/Emotiva Atmos audio in my theater room where I use the Kaleidescape (and an Apple TV too). In my living room though, with a 75" 2016 4k Vizio P-Series (hopefully soon to upgrade to an 85" 2021 4k Vizio P-Series Quantum X) and 2.2 in-wall Triad/Denon audio, I only use the Apple TV.

I'm ~14' back from that screen. Similar viewing distance in my theater room. If we didn't have the theater and the 75"/85" was our primary viewing, then I would consider a higher fidelity source than Apple TV. But given it's secondary for news, sports, TV shows, etc. I don't feel we need anything more.

Hope I don't come off like I'm pressuring on you to consider a Kaleidescape. If you're happy with your sources and content, then by all means enjoy. We all love great movies on kick ass gear and there are definitely pros and cons on both sides of the physical and digital elements of this thread's debate.

There's just a lot of misconception and incorrect preconceived notion about Kaleidescape I wanted to address having collected physical, then managing DIY servers, and now using Kaleidescape.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

Conjecture, mostly, per my prior comments. They have done a lot in a few years now. I can't imagine they could have closed all the content deals they have without enough presence and stability for the many studios to devote resources to uniquely and specifically work with them.

I have a 135" Stewart and JVC NX7 with 7.2.4 Focal/REL/Marantz/Emotiva Atmos audio in my theater room where I use the Kaleidescape (and an Apple TV too). In my living room though, with a 75" 2016 4k Vizio P-Series (hopefully soon to upgrade to an 85" 2021 4k Vizio P-Series Quantum X) and 2.2 in-wall Triad/Denon audio, I only use the Apple TV.

I'm ~14' back from that screen. Similar viewing distance in my theater room. If we didn't have the theater and the 75"/85" was our primary viewing, then I would consider a higher fidelity source than Apple TV. But given it's secondary for news, sports, TV shows, etc. I don't feel we need anything more.

Hope I don't come off like I'm pressuring on you to consider a Kaleidescape. If you're happy with your sources and content, then by all means enjoy. We all love great movies on kick ass gear and there are definitely pros and cons on both sides of the physical and digital elements of this thread's debate.

There's just a lot of misconception and incorrect preconceived notion about Kaleidescape I wanted to address having collected physical, then managing DIY servers, and now using Kaleidescape.

Nice theater setup.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by TrackZ

Conjecture, mostly, per my prior comments. They have done a lot in a few years now. I can't imagine they could have closed all the content deals they have without enough presence and stability for the many studios to devote resources to uniquely and specifically work with them.

I have a 135" Stewart and JVC NX7 with 7.2.4 Focal/REL/Marantz/Emotiva Atmos audio in my theater room where I use the Kaleidescape (and an Apple TV too). In my living room though, with a 75" 2016 4k Vizio P-Series (hopefully soon to upgrade to an 85" 2021 4k Vizio P-Series Quantum X) and 2.2 in-wall Triad/Denon audio, I only use the Apple TV.

I'm ~14' back from that screen. Similar viewing distance in my theater room. If we didn't have the theater and the 75"/85" was our primary viewing, then I would consider a higher fidelity source than Apple TV. But given it's secondary for news, sports, TV shows, etc. I don't feel we need anything more.

Hope I don't come off like I'm pressuring on you to consider a Kaleidescape. If you're happy with your sources and content, then by all means enjoy. We all love great movies on kick ass gear and there are definitely pros and cons on both sides of the physical and digital elements of this thread's debate.

There's just a lot of misconception and incorrect preconceived notion about Kaleidescape I wanted to address having collected physical, then managing DIY servers, and now using Kaleidescape.

Your home theater sounds like a slice of heaven on Earth.

I sit 9' from my 85" display at the near end of the recommended viewing distance. The screen almost, but not quite, fills my field of vision. It feels very immersive at this distance.

I do not feel like you are pressuring me at all. I am naturally curious and I would very much like to see a Kaleidescape demonstration...but not by their sales people, but by actual customers in their homes.

An informed opinion can only come from first hand experience after all.