Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[bhampton]

Gaming so cutting edge it results in damage

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I read about it in the Requiem for a Dream 4K thread. It’s playlist obfuscation but during playback goes like seemless branching only without the seemless part.

So the problem is just with one title? I will have to explore that thread as I do not own this particular 4K disc.

Edit: I read Geoff's post. It looks like it only affects the Dolby Atmos track if I understood him correctly.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yep, good old Lionsgate and their 'playlist obfuscation' by divvying up the movie into loads of different .m2ts files and scrambling those files under hundreds of different playlists. It causes a 'break' in the audio akin to branching and, unfortunately, some players like the OPPO are more sensitive to this when bitstreaming a Dolby TrueHD/Atmos audio track over HDMI at the same time. Andreas is 100% correct and no amount of replacement discs will fix it.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

So you didn't notice the YouTube video earlier?

Broken HDMI 2.1: Next Gen Gaming Confounds Denon Marantz & Yamaha

As youtube videos often derive from questionable sources, it is good to see the story confirmed in other places.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

In light of all this HDMI 2.1 hullabaloo, my leading AVR contender at the moment is the Marantz SR8012. The SR8012 is an 11.2 channel AVR with 205 watts per channel whereas its successor, the SR8015, is 140 watts per channel.

The brand new SR8015 provides less power, has a bad HDMI 2.1 chip, and costs $700 more; what a deal!

Some chips are programmable. Sounds United was telling us all that you won't have anything higher than 40 Gbps bandwidth using 8K passthrough.

2020 Denon X-Series Receiver Overview Part 3 - HDMI 2.1 Video features - YouTube

4K@120Hz with 10 bit 4:4:4 color = 40 Gbps
8K@24Hz with 10 bit 4:4:4 color = 40 Gbps
8K@60Hz with 10 bit 4:2:0 color = 40 Gbps

Official Sound United Response Regarding the HDMI 2.1 Chipset Bug. (audioholics)

Some new gaming source devices that support 4K/120Hz output may not work fully with Denon (or Marantz) 8K AVRs. You may discover this incompatibility issue due to a HDMI chipset mismatch between the devices. When the affected system is connected to the AVR via 8K HDMI input and set to output at 4K/120Hz, and the AVR’s 4K Signal Format option is set to “8K Enhanced,” you may not see the system’s source video on their display, and may not hear the system’s source audio processed through the AVR. This problem is only present when a display that supports 4K/120Hz is used.

We are currently investigating the issue further and will offer a permanent solution at a later date. Meanwhile, we would like to provide a couple workarounds to prevent the issue in its current state:

You can connect the system to the display directly via HDMI and use the display’s ARC/eARC functionality to feed the native audio back to the AVR using the connected HDMI cable between the AVR and display. This will allow users to decode the native audio format sent from the source. With this method, the display’s CEC/ARC option must be enabled as well as the AVR’s HDMI Control and/or the AVR’s ARC option. In the AVR, this option is located within the GUI under “Video – HDMI Setup.”

Another workaround is to leave or change the source’s video output to 4K/60Hz instead of 4K/120Hz until a permanent solution is available. This will ensure reliable communication between the source, the AVR and the display. The source’s default is set to output at 4K/60Hz, so if no change was initiated out of the box, then nothing further needs to be done.

We apologize for this inconvenience and we are currently working tirelessly to release a permanent solution so you can enjoy the 4K/120Hz experience using the latest sources with your AVR. We will have an update soon regarding the timeline of a permanent solution. We appreciate your patience.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

As youtube videos often derive from questionable sources, it is good to see the story confirmed in other places.

Like FlatPanelsHD site oh yeah, the always tell the truth rumor site, oh sure.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Like FlatPanelssHD site oh yeah, the always tell the truth rumor site, oh sure.

Well, we now have confirmation of the problem from Sound United themselves, so apparently FlatPanelsHD got this one right.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Some chips are programmable. Sounds United was telling us all that you won't have anything higher than 40 Gbps bandwidth using 8K passthrough.

[Show spoiler]2020 Denon X-Series Receiver Overview Part 3 - HDMI 2.1 Video features - YouTube

4K@120Hz with 10 bit 4:4:4 color = 40 Gbps
8K@24Hz with 10 bit 4:4:4 color = 40 Gbps
8K@60Hz with 10 bit 4:2:0 color = 40 Gbps

Official Sound United Response Regarding the HDMI 2.1 Chipset Bug. (audioholics)

The first video that you posted about this problem said, IIRC, that the HDMI 2.1 chips in question are not fixable and that they would require being replaced with a different HDMI 2.1 chip that might not even exist yet. Firmware updates won't solve this problem, apparently.

[bhampton]

Vilya,

Glad you found the post that I tried to quote for you.


I just got email saying my free year of ATV+ is being extended another 3 months.

That’s fine ... we use iCloud storage and so we’re planning on getting the AopleOne combination of services that would cost less than we currently pay for cloud storage and Apple Music.

I should watch some stuff on ATV+. I liked Servant. Was very bored with most of everything else. wolf walker or whatever it’s called looks good

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The first video that you posted about this problem said, IIRC, that the HDMI 2.1 chips in question are not fixable and that they would require being replaced with a different HDMI 2.1 chip that might not even exist yet. Firmware updates won't solve this problem, apparently.

Not knowing what part of the AVR HDMI chain, whether its a discrete HDMI transceiver device, or its built into the SoC (video processor) with these 8K pass through Sound United gear. MOJO is just reading early posted comments. The devices might be able to fix this thorough a SoC update. It's the old case of not really having anything to test it with when they were designed. Time will tell.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by bhampton

Vilya,

Glad you found the post that I tried to quote for you.


I just got email saying my free year of ATV+ is being extended another 3 months.

That’s fine ... we use iCloud storage and so we’re planning on getting the AopleOne combination of services that would cost less than we currently pay for cloud storage and Apple Music.

I should watch some stuff on ATV+. I liked Servant. Was very bored with most of everything else. wolf walker or whatever it’s called looks good

I would like to see Tom Hanks in Greyhound still, but only Apple has it and I have no access to the Appleverse.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Not knowing what part of the AVR HDMI chain, whether its a discrete HDMI transceiver device, or its built into the SoC (video processor) with these 8K pass through Sound United gear. MOJO is just reading early posted comments. The devices might be able to fix this thorough a SoC update. It's the old case of not really having anything to test it with when they were designed. Time will tell.

All the more reason that they (Sound United) should have waited until they could confirm this 4K 120 fps capability with the new game consoles and video cards instead of just blindly claiming to have it. They knew that this functionality is dependent upon everything in the HDMI 2.1 chain being compatible, but they did not wait to confirm it before launching their new AVRs and boasting of this capability. Would it have really been that hard for Sound United to reach out to these other companies and simply ask whether or not their new game consoles and video cards were sending an uncompressed 4K 120 fps signal or a compressed one? Sound United guessed it would be compressed and they guessed wrong.

If they can fix this via firmware update, then the mistake is more forgivable as a factory recall of their AVRs would be a royal pain in the arse.

Personally, I do not need 8K pass thru or 4K 120 fps capability, so the previous AVR models appear to be a better choice for me. The Marantz SR 8012 is more powerful than its successor, much more affordable, and 4K 60 fps support is plenty for me.

Until meaningful 8K content at high frame rates (to overcome its inherent motion blur) or 4K content at 120 fps exists then this functionality is really much ado about nothing as far as I am concerned.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I would like to see Tom Hanks in Greyhound still, but only Apple has it and I have no access to the Appleverse.

Wish I was near the shady rest hotel. I’m tempted to loan you my password. If it was a vudu thing I would but my Apple password seems like something I shouldn’t play with that way.

I would not care if my vudu vaporized. I used to hand out my vudu to people wanting to borrow discs.

Is there no free trial for ATV+? It is an app now on roku.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The Marantz SR 8012 is more powerful than its successor, much more affordable, and 4K 60 fps support is plenty for me.

There is no power output difference between Marantz SR 8012 vs Marantz SR 8015.

Quick link to compare both.

Note I should have worded my earlier post that both the HDMI transceivers and SOC could be programable to the extent to correct this issue via a firmware update.

[sapiendut]

AFAIK, HDMI chip can not be altered using firmware update. I may be wrong

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by bhampton

Wish I was near the shady rest hotel. I’m tempted to loan you my password. If it was a vudu thing I would but my Apple password seems like something I shouldn’t play with that way.

I would not care if my vudu vaporized. I used to hand out my vudu to people wanting to borrow discs.

Is there no free trial for ATV+? It is an app now on roku.

There is no need to lend me your password nor should you as you don't really know me. It is nice that you even considered doing it, though.

I do not own any Apple stuff nor do I own a Roku. I just use the apps on my TVs. I think someone (maybe it was cheez avenger) said that there was an Apple streaming app for Android TVs and that their service had a 14 day free trial or somesuch, but that seemed like a hassle just to watch one movie. If Apple had a lot of good content limited to their service then that would be a horse of a different color.

I still have hope that Greyhound will get a disc release someday.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

There is no power output difference between Marantz SR 8012 vs Marantz SR 8015.

Quick link to compare both.

Note I should have worded my earlier post that both the HDMI transceivers and SOC could be programable to the extent to correct this issue via a firmware update.

According to Marantz's own website the SR 8012 offers 205 watts per channel vs the SR 8015 offering 140 watts per channel.

"11.2 channel AV Receiver with 205W per channel – Enough power to fill big rooms with renowned Marantz sound."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ivers/sr8012_m

"Delivers a masterful 140W per channel (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, THD: 0.05%, 2 ch. driven) so you experience your entertainment in remarkable detail."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ceivers/sr8015

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

AFAIK, HDMI chip can not be altered using firmware update. I may be wrong

If its an integrated device it could be, not just a discrete HDMI 2.1 Transmitter/Receiver. I seen in the past references to updating devices to enable HDMI functionality that wasn't enabled in a product originally.

Another example is of course the actual SoC that does the video processing might encompass HDMI 2.1 Transmitter/Receiver section.

But these days we see less information about specific devices in home theater products. I used to love the sites that dug into A/V gear and told us what they were using.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Vilya

According to Marantz's own website the SR 8012 offers 205 watts per channel vs the SR 8015 offering 140 watts per channel.

"11.2 channel AV Receiver with 205W per channel – Enough power to fill big rooms with renowned Marantz sound."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ivers/sr8012_m

"Delivers a masterful 140W per channel (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, THD: 0.05%, 2 ch. driven) so you experience your entertainment in remarkable detail."

https://www.us.marantz.com/en-US/sho...ceivers/sr8015

Look at that by impedance, and number of channels. Sometimes to a different THD spec also, or to a fixed frequency like 1 Khz. Its actually false advertising by Sounds United.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Vilya

So the problem is just with one title? I will have to explore that thread as I do not own this particular 4K disc.

Edit: I read Geoff's post. It looks like it only affects the Dolby Atmos track if I understood him correctly.

If the Atmos/TrueHD track is being bitstreamed to an AVR, yes, though some AVRs seem to be more sensitive than others (no, I've no idea what ones). If the track is being internally decoded to PCM and then squirted to an AVR, or the lossy DD 5.1 legacy encode is being accessed, it will not exhibit the drop outs. This has been a problem with MediaTek chips for like a decade already.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Look at that by impedance, and number of channels. Sometimes to a different THD spec also, or to a fixed frequency like 1 Khz. Its actually false advertising by Sounds United.

Sneaky bastards.

All of the review sites that I just scanned thru state that the power output for the SR 8012 is 140 watts per channel into 8 ohms. I thought that all power output ratings were stated as into 8 ohms by default.

That means then that the power rating between the two models is equal, but the SR 8012 is still $700 cheaper than the SR 8015. I do not see any meaningful differences between the two as I do not care about HDR10+; I run the video from my Oppo 203 direct to the display as I see no reason to have the AVR act as a middleman.