Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Just to be clear - you are referencing EST titles? A movie someone bought in the past that now has been redacted in some manner? Or are you referencing movies on streaming services which has nothing to do with ESTs.

I was talking about EST. Plenty of titles have been removed from sale with no warning. There is no guarantee that they won't ever remove titles from people's collections but even if they don't are you going to buy every title you have any interest in as soon as it's released just in case it disappears later?

Unlike physical media, EST has no used market and no inventory to deal with. When a studio removes a digital title it disappears from every digital store simultaneously. Nobody knows what will be considered offensive in the future; nothing is safe when it's so easy to remove titles from digital stores.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I was talking about EST. Plenty of titles have been removed from sale with no warning. There is no guarantee that they won't ever remove titles from people's collections but even if they don't are you going to buy every title you have any interest in as soon as it's released just in case it disappears later?

OK - this is nothing more than speculation. What could happen versus what has happened.

Unlike physical media, EST has no used market and no inventory to deal with. When a studio removes a digital title it disappears from every digital store simultaneously. Nobody knows what will be considered offensive in the future; nothing is safe when it's so easy to remove titles from digital stores.

Don't collectors like to hang on to their collections? Isn't that the purpose of collecting?

It's very easy to fix a mistake or error encoded EST. For PM that's a huge PITA and it happens unfortunately.

Don't some movies on disc go out of print? No longer available as new?

Have there been any cases where newer movies have only been offered as VOD or EST - no PM?

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Don't collectors like to hang on to their collections? Isn't that the purpose of collecting?

A large percentage of people buying movies aren't collectors. They buy movies because they want to watch them repeatedly close to launch. Then they get bored of them when something new comes out and sell or donate their copies. I see that as a good thing because it means there are always plenty of copies in circulation.

It's very easy to fix a mistake or error encoded EST. For PM that's a huge PITA and it happens unfortunately.

It's also very easy to fix a "mistake" like potentially offensive content. The ability to easily "fix" things can do a lot more harm than good.

Don't some movies on disc go out of print? No longer available as new?

Thousands of titles have gone of out of print but the overwhelming majority of them are still available to buy via the used market and most of those aren't that expensive. Any title that sold decently well in the first place will have plenty of copies in circulation long after official support has ended.

Have there been any cases where newer movies have only been offered as VOD or EST - no PM?

That's exactly the problem. If there was more support for physical media then more titles would be released on physical media and more titles would be safe from being removed or modified. Every title that is released only on VOD or EST can be removed at any time and more support for them will cause more titles to forgo physical releases.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

It's also very easy to fix a "mistake" like offensive content.

Has this actually happened or are you just speculating again.

That's exactly the problem. If there was more support for physical media then more titles would be released on physical media and more titles would be safe from being removed or modified.

Why should a studio add more support for PM when they make 40% more on an EST sale and have to deal with the First Sale Doctrine with PM which the studios absolutely hate.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Has this actually happened or are you just speculating again.

Look at what happened with the TV shows Community and 30 Rock. Both had episodes removed from all EST sources because they were deemed to be offensive. The Blu-rays of both shows are still available with the episodes intact because it would have been too expensive to author new discs. When the Blu-rays do eventually go out of print all of the copies that have been sold up to that point will still be in circulation via the used market.

Why should a studio add more support for PM when they make 40% more on an EST sale and have to deal with the First Sale Doctrine with PM which the studios absolutely hate.

I'm not trying to convince the studios to support physical media. I'm trying to convince customers to support physical media. The studios will continue to support everything that sells well.

[bhampton]

My EST content is like my local library. It’s managed by other people.

I have a library card but I don’t have any control over my library’s inventory or operations.

If I have a disc, I can watch it and I have to maintain it. If I have an EST license I have to ask someone else if I can watch their copy.

I’ll only buy physical. If steaming is free then maybe I’ll watch it. I don’t really care that much about things I consider free. If they are flaky that’s just how it goes with free stuff.

I’m glad I don’t think I “own” content online content. It co exists to whatever extent that it does with my video collection.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

OK - this is nothing more than speculation. What could happen versus what has happened.

This conversation started with an article talking about Amazon defending its right to remove content from people's digital collections. Why would Amazon defend that right if they are never going to exercise it?

Originally Posted by Steedeel

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/th...-video-content

There are two possible scenarios:

A) People will lose some of their purchased digital movies.

B) All EST providers will continue to support every version of every movie they've ever released for all time.

What in the history of the world could possibly make you think that scenario B is more likely?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

OK - this is nothing more than speculation. What could happen versus what has happened.



Don't collectors like to hang on to their collections? Isn't that the purpose of collecting?

It's very easy to fix a mistake or error encoded EST. For PM that's a huge PITA and it happens unfortunately.

Don't some movies on disc go out of print? No longer available as new?

Have there been any cases where newer movies have only been offered as VOD or EST - no PM?

The subscription streaming wars will become fierce as only a few survive and others lose out. Grabbing film franchises and locking them into the appropriate service will very much be a thing. It’s just a case of waiting for deals to expire. It will be a mess.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Currently the studios are making 40% more profit from an EST sale then they do from a disc sale. EST is outselling Physical Media.

Does anyone really believe the studios will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

Currently yes. In a pandemic. Numbers last year and this year suggest things will go back to normal once films are being made on a regular basis again and released in cinemas.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Ender14

I actually just bought my first digital title. Sorta. I had a $6.00 digital credit on Amazon and wanted to watch Scream 4. It was only $2 more to purchase rather than rent. I thought since I wasn't actually spending any money, why not. So technically it was free, and I have received 8-10 digital only titles for free anyway. I'll never turn down free, and I'll never spend cold hard cash on a digital title.

But I will end up purchasing the disc anyway because I enjoyed it.

If Yoda was here, he would be keeping a close eye on you mate!

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Look at what happened with the TV shows Community and 30 Rock. Both had episodes removed from all EST sources because they were deemed to be offensive. The Blu-rays of both shows are still available with the episodes intact because it would have been too expensive to author new discs. When the Blu-rays do eventually go out of print all of the copies that have been sold up to that point will still be in circulation via the used market.

30 Rock Is Pulling Blackface Episodes From Streaming Platforms and TV Reruns

Four episodes of 30 Rock, including two featuring Jane Krakowski’s Jenna character in blackface, are being removed from subscription streaming services Hulu and Amazon Prime and have also been made unavailable for sale on purchase platforms such as iTunes and Google Play. The episodes, which will no longer air on traditional TV either, were pulled at the request of NBCUniversal executive producers Tina Fey and Robert Carlock. A source tells Vulture the four episodes, some of which have already vanished, should be gone by the end of this week.

https://www.vulture.com/2020/06/30-r...s-removed.html

It doesn't say anything about prior EST sales of those particular episodes. That's what I want to see. They take something I already bought and remove it from my collection without notice to me or compensating me for the loss. That's the big fear with buying ESTs right? Spending money with nothing to show for it?

I'm not trying to convince the studios to support physical media. I'm trying to convince customers to support physical media. The studios will continue to support everything that sells well.

You're pissing into the wind. Buying PM went out of fashion years ago by Joe Sixpack. He's moved on for the most part. The market continues to get smaller each year until all that will be left are hardcore collectors.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

You're pissing into the wind. Buying PM went out of fashion years ago by Joe Sixpack. He's moved on for the most part. The market continues to get smaller each year until all that will be left are hardcore collectors.

I still see folks buying DVDs at Walmart.

I don’t know if I’m a hardcore collector but I do collect movies and I’ll buy them till they don’t sell them.

Having lost access to iTunes content, I do not trust online movie licenses at all and I don’t buy those. I redeem codes and share my iTunes library with my family and whatever happens to those virtual assets is ultimately up to someone else. I don’t care about that stuff anymore now that I don’t trust it.

Meanwhile so many tasty UHD releases make me happy. Star Wars, Jurassic Park, E.T., Jaws, BTTF, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, ....there’s plenty and more coming.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

It doesn't say anything about prior EST sales of those particular episodes. That's what I want to see. They take something I already bought and remove it from my collection without notice to me or compensating me for the loss. That's the big fear with buying ESTs right? Spending money with nothing to show for it?

That's never been my fear. I care that everyone can still watch the episodes that were removed, not just the people who already bought a copy. I care that all movies and TV shows remain available for everyone to watch. Losing money is a distant secondary concern.

You're pissing into the wind. Buying PM went out of fashion years ago by Joe Sixpack. He's moved on for the most part. The market continues to get smaller each year until all that will be left are hardcore collectors.

And you think that Joe Sixpack is reading the Blu-ray.com forum? What makes you think I'm trying to convince Joe Sixpack of anything?

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Currently yes. In a pandemic. Numbers last year and this year suggest things will go back to normal once films are being made on a regular basis again and released in cinemas.

That won't change the profit margins. Will still be 40% higher for an EST sale over a PM sale.

How about some speculation: the studios are really enjoying the additional EST sales due to the pandemic. All they have to do is make a few pricing adjustments - give EST a real edge over disc. They already have the edge on release dates: 3 to 4 weeks head start.

We have different views on human nature. Yours doesn't seem to take into account lifestyle changes over a long period of time.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

That won't change the profit margins. Will still be 40% higher for an EST sale over a PM sale.

How about some speculation: the studios are really enjoying the additional EST sales due to the pandemic. All they have to do is make a few pricing adjustments - give EST a real edge over disc. They already have the edge on release dates: 3 to 4 weeks head start.

We have different views on human nature. Yours doesn't seem to take into account lifestyle changes over a long period of time.

It doesn't matter whether physical media or EST is more profitable. All that matters is that physical media is profitable. The studios know that there are still people who far prefer physical media and won't buy EST or won't pay nearly as much for EST. As long as that remains true it will still be worth it for the studios to continue to cater the physical media market (even if it's a niche).

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

That's never been my fear. I care that everyone can still watch the episodes that were removed, not just the people who already bought a copy. I care that all movies and TV shows remain available for everyone to watch. Losing money is a distant secondary concern.

So it's agenda instead of money. Not sure the General Public will agree with you on that.

And you think that Joe Sixpack is reading the Blu-ray.com forum? What makes you think I'm trying to convince Joe Sixpack of anything?

So who exactly are you trying to convince? You said "customers." Please define.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

So who exactly are you trying to convince? You said "customers." Please define.

Readers of this thread. I've also tried (and succeeded in some cases) to convince some people in my personal life to buy more physical media.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

It doesn't matter whether physical media or EST is more profitable. All that matters is that physical media is profitable. The studios know that there are still people who far prefer physical media and won't buy EST or won't pay nearly as much for EST. As long as that remains true it will still be worth it for the studios to continue to cater the physical media market (even if it's a niche).

No question. But their support is not going to remain the same. The smaller the market, the less support. How many Disney owned catalog titles have been released on UHD-BD in the last 6 months?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

That won't change the profit margins. Will still be 40% higher for an EST sale over a PM sale.

How about some speculation: the studios are really enjoying the additional EST sales due to the pandemic. All they have to do is make a few pricing adjustments - give EST a real edge over disc. They already have the edge on release dates: 3 to 4 weeks head start.

We have different views on human nature. Yours doesn't seem to take into account lifestyle changes over a long period of time.

Yeah, I love films. Many don’t. I get that. I love seeing said films (and owning them) in the best quality for my HT. average Joe doesn’t even want to own films, that’s what you are missing out of the conversation. As Disney+ becomes more established, can you see the average consumer rushing out to buy Marvel, Disney, Pixar and Lucasfilm? (Star Wars) EST is a very unstable format and HT enthusiasts know this.
People who do care about ownership and quality will go for disc. Blockbusters will always sell on disc.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Readers of this thread. I've also tried (and succeeded in some cases) to convince some people in my personal life to buy more physical media.

The international disc market is dropping at 18% a year. Same - % for NA too.