The Official Arrow Video Thread

[Torrente]

Originally Posted by Andrew_HD

Show me better release out there?

Again- it's as good as master was. Maybe it shouldn't be released at all.

My post came after a post where someone listed all the good editions that came from Arrow!

as other recent releases of theirs, ala The Funhouse/Maniac Cop/The Exterminator also sport excellent transfers

Stop being so paranoiac and defensive!

I was naming one of their best editions!
Read my post again!
I love what they do!

Spirits of the Dead is one of their best jobs and everyone forgets about it everytime so I'll keep mentioning the terrific job they done on this title whenever needed!

[Bad Sandwich]

Originally Posted by Torrente

My post came after a post where someone listed all the good editions that came from Arrow!



Stop being so paranoiac and defensive!

I was naming one of their best editions!
Read my post again!
I love what they do!

Spirits of the Dead is one of their best jobs and everyone forgets about it everytime so I'll keep mentioning the terrific job they done on this title whenever needed!

Um, I was neither responding to you nor being "paranoiac and defensive". So relax sir. I guess a wire got crossed.

[Bad Sandwich]

Originally Posted by Andrew_HD

Yes- Arrows' is superior version, so why Synapse's did not use the same master? Maybe they did and made it worse?
It's a business, not some charity and things are not as easy or straight forward as you may think.
If some releases share master than they should look similar- one may have bit better encode than other (due to different reasons), but overall it's should not be so visible during watching. Most of claims about Arrow being different are simply down to different masters- only single cases may by due to other reasons.

I'm about 99% certain Synapse/Arrow's editions of Maniac Cop/Exterminator and their upcoming Frankenhooker all come from the same masters, ala the scenario with Blue Underground. And encodes is precisely what I'm talking about here. In the case of most of the titles released by both Arrow/BU, the Arrow had one or small deficiencies in the encoding which made it inferior to BU's offering (though not necessarily "crap" either - don't misinterpret me). In case you're not aware, filtering is something that can be introduced in the encoding stage. In fact I think I remember reading a post from someone who works in the industry and handles encodes (I want to say on AVS forum) that the VC-1 codec, for example, actually implements a small degree of filtering by default, which has to be manually removed - not sure about AVC. It's not necessarily a sole matter of the master. EDIT: I had missed your above comment where you mentioned you yourself work in the industry and handle encodes. So of course you would be aware of all of that stuff - apologies.

And before someone tosses out the accusation of "Anti-Arrow", nothing could be further from the truth. I have several of their releases (The Funhouse being my most recent purchase). But claiming that they've been working with different masters than BU is just incorrect.

As for Inferno, it's true that the look of BU's differs substantially from Arrow's, but my understanding was in that case the same scan was used as the basis for all releases (US, UK, French, Japanese) but that BU did some substantial tweaking of contrast, colors etc. to bring the look closer to that seen on the old Anchor Bay/BU DVD, where as the Arrow/Fr/JP were basically just straight encodes with little or no alterations. However in the case of other titles that have been released by both, colors/framing etc. is generally identical between BU/Arrow, suggesting only a simple difference of encodes.

[Torrente]

Originally Posted by Bad Sandwich

Um, I was neither responding to you nor being "paranoiac and defensive". So relax sir. I guess a wire got crossed.

I answered to AndrewHD, not you.

He quoted my post pretending I was saying that Spirits of the Dead was a bad edition, which I wasn't as I was saying the exact opposite.
And my first post that he quoted, came after yours where you gave a list of good editions from Arrow which I agreed with.
So I quoted this very post of yours to let him see what I was refering to in the first place.

What did you eat guys during these holidays?

Either you don't understand a word I say or you misinterpret everything, when I'm just saying that both of you 2 are right.
I feel so bad about this.

Well I guess I won't post anymore after you 2.
It seems you're in a cockfight competition to find whose right or wrong when both of you are right and wrong

[Bad Sandwich]

Originally Posted by Torrente

I answered to AndrewHD, not you.

He quoted my post pretending I was saying that Spirits of the Dead was a bad edition, which I wasn't as I was saying the exact opposite.
And my first post that he quoted, came after yours where you gave a list of good editions from Arrow which I agreed with.
So I quoted this very post of yours to let him see what I was refering to in the first place.(

Ah ok, I misunderstood the context of you quoting me. I see where you were going now. Sorry about that.

[Torrente]

It's probably due to my bad english as it's not my native language.
Sorry about that also.

[Andrew_HD]

Originally Posted by Bad Sandwich

I'm about 99% certain Synapse/Arrow's editions of Maniac Cop/Exterminator and their upcoming Frankenhooker all come from the same masters, ala the scenario with Blue Underground. And encodes is precisely what I'm talking about here. In the case of most of the titles released by both Arrow/BU, the Arrow had one or small deficiencies in the encoding which made it inferior to BU's offering (though not necessarily "crap" either - don't misinterpret me). In case you're not aware, filtering is something that can be introduced in the encoding stage. In fact I think I remember reading a post from someone who works in the industry and handles encodes (I want to say on AVS forum) that the VC-1 codec, for example, actually implements a small degree of filtering by default, which has to be manually removed - not sure about AVC. It's not necessarily a sole matter of the master. EDIT: I had missed your above comment where you mentioned you yourself work in the industry and handle encodes. So of course you would be aware of all of that stuff - apologies.

And before someone tosses out the accusation of "Anti-Arrow", nothing could be further from the truth. I have several of their releases (The Funhouse being my most recent purchase). But claiming that they've been working with different masters than BU is just incorrect.

As for Inferno, it's true that the look of BU's differs substantially from Arrow's, but my understanding was in that case the same scan was used as the basis for all releases (US, UK, French, Japanese) but that BU did some substantial tweaking of contrast, colors etc. to bring the look closer to that seen on the old Anchor Bay/BU DVD, where as the Arrow/Fr/JP were basically just straight encodes with little or no alterations. However in the case of other titles that have been released by both, colors/framing etc. is generally identical between BU/Arrow, suggesting only a simple difference of encodes.

I don't think Maniac Cop comes from the same master. It looks like Synapse one went through some noise reduction- judging by grabs. It's unlikely that it was done during encoding as you rather avoid it (encoder is not the tool for this, even if some of them have some preprocessing filters)- if it's needed than you ask for DNRed master. It maybe due to not very good encoding, but I think it's more than this.
They may come from one scan, but this is just half of the process of preparing masters- you may have 5 master versions from the same scan- some may have DNR, different colors etc. Arrow does not over look it, as in most cases it's simply impossible. Arrow does not really alter masters neither- as they have no facility to do this. If you have DNRed master there is nothing what can you do anyway, except trying to source new one.
When I say same master I mean same tape/file- not scan. If you have different framing, obvious DNR, color differences than there is no way it comes form the same master as authoring houses don't really touch these things. There is simply no way Inferno, or Deep Red come from the same master as they look totally different.

COTLD has worse encoding on Arrows release- due to lower bitrate (way more extras on the disc), maybe worse encoder- don't know- have nothing to do with it, but as I said- this is single case, where you can say encoding is worse (and master was the same). COTLD is quite extreme example. In most cases it should rather look like difference for Maniac Cop.
Most other cases mentioned here are rather due to different masters, not worse encoding. When master is done in USA it's likely that companies in Europe will get some "worse" copy if it.

I can give you example of proper restoration made by StudioCanal:

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Quate.../24446/#Review

It was overlooked, with lots of feedback and corrected many times before final version went for encoding. The only problem is cost- Arrow compared to StudioCanal is tiny company and can't justify such a cost. Profit from titles released by Arrow in most cases would never cover spendings.
Another title, which has better video quality even than Criterion release is Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence- again, lots of attention was put and result is very good.

What are the other titles which you think share the same master?

[SymbioticFunction]

Arrow's Deep Red. Blue Underground's Deep Red. Same master.

[Andrew_HD]

So how do you explain this:

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...ss=0#vergleich

and this:

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...ss=0#vergleich


??

[dallywhitty]

I always thought there were was a difference between a master and a transfer? Considering how both releases look so similar, couldn't they have been sourced from the same master but underwent additional work individually? (I apologise if I'm hideously wrong).

[SymbioticFunction]

I trust Michael MacKenzie's opinion:

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives...round-release/

And having owned both, the identical (and annoying) fluctuating tint of the last 10 mins on both versions, seems like a bit of a clue.

[Andrew_HD]

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/comparis...creditsus1.jpg

v

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/comparis...creditsuk1.jpg

??

I can tell you that this is not encoding issues as every encoder can handle simple text.

[SymbioticFunction]

Those links don't work. Shame that MacKenzie can't weigh in on this issue. He actually joined this forum ages ago, but I know that he read bizarre insults from Arrow fans, and has never bothered posting here.

[Andrew_HD]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

I trust Michael MacKenzie's opinion:

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives...round-release/


And having owned both, the identical (and annoying) fluctuating tint of the last 10 mins on both versions, seems like a bit of a clue.

Here:

http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives...coming-soon-2/

Read comments.

You miss the point- if 2 companies use exactly the same master than 2 BDs have exactly the same frames- only difference is down to better or worse encoding.
It looks like in Arrow disc there are parts which were upscaled (maybe even taken from SD DVD), so pleas stop saying this nonsense that it was encoded from the same master.

Do you still say they come from the same master?

[SymbioticFunction]

So Arrow's Deep Red & Blue Underground's Deep Red do not use Medusa's 2005 WMV-HD master?

[Andrew_HD]

I have no clue- what I know they are different.

Even very crap encoding would not introduce such a big difference, but we have plenty of different frames, so it's obvious that AR and BU used different masters.

I'm not saying that Arrow looks good, because its crap, but trying to stop this very wrong assumption about same masters.

[Brett C]

Originally Posted by dallywhitty

I always thought there were was a difference between a master and a transfer? Considering how both releases look so similar, couldn't they have been sourced from the same master but underwent additional work individually? (I apologise if I'm hideously wrong).

Your not wrong at all actually.

Inferno is a HD transfer made by 20th Century Fox in 2007 - used by both Arrow and Blue Underground.
The transfer was outsourced by both companies who added DNR in Arrows case and color correction by Blue Underground.

Deep Red, the transfer dates back as far as 2004 when it was used as a compressed WMV file on a DVD release from Medusa in Italy. Anyone has has seen all three can clearly see that its the same transfer used by both Arrow and Blue underground.

Synapse did share HD masters on The Exterminator and Maniac Cop with Arrow.
Both look fairly similar, although Synapse did additional dirt and scratch removal
on both titles.

Both companies have good and bad as far as I am concerned. For instance, Zombie has been whacked with too much DNR for my liking.
But to say that Arrow just recieves the transfer and whacks it to disc is ridiculous!
What are they a bootleg outfit? I have never heard of such a thing.

One only has to read the press release from Arrow on the Beyond fiasco.
They received the transfer, they were not happy with it, so they had additional work done to it. Common sense would dictate that they have done this with every title. And unfortunately thats where the added DNR comes into play.

I think Arrow has been lifting their game recently and I look forward to their releases but the overuse of DNR needs to stay in the past.

This subject has been beaten to death...

I look forward to great releases from all these indy companies!

[Andrew_HD]

Originally Posted by dallywhitty

I see my post has been ignored. Two releases can be sourced from the same master and still display minor differences, surely?

They can look like day and night, depending what has been done after scan. Telecine gives your raw footage which goes through massive processing later (color correction, scratch, noise removal, DNR.....) and it's up to postporduction house to do it well. Shame that in most cases they always overdo DNR- not sure why-BD can handle well massive grain and only in very specific cases DNR is need at all.

[SymbioticFunction]

Andrew HD. I see what you mean about the Deep Red frame differences.

Especially since I've been looking at the caps-a-holic City Of The Living Dead comparisons (kind of depressing since I own the Arrow release), and yes, those are completely identical frames.

I don't think I rate COTLD enough to upgrade, but...it is annoying.

Deep Red on the other hand, I'll always happily upgrade for better.

What's VERY odd about DR, is that both versions/masters have exactly the same weird fluctuating tint for the last 10 mins.

[SymbioticFunction]

Shame Arrow's Tenebre couldn't use the same master as Wild Side from France. What a massive let down that was. Never seen such a horrible PQ comparison. I'll stick with my forced subs version.