Babylon 5

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by blueman_Richie

I’m confused, if this is possible from the original CG assets, why wasn’t it done for the series remastering?

Apparently Warner still isn't willing to invest real money to re-render the effects, redo composite shots, and recreate missing assets, scene files, high resolution textures and the like. If it really took them 6 years to do the current remasters, it means that it was probably a low-cost side project with few people working on it.

It's a shame really. I hope they are keeping the widescreen versions of the newly scanned live action shots, so maybe some day they can create a full remaster with SFX re-rendered in HD and16:9.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

Originally Posted by blueman_Richie

I’m confused, if this is possible from the original CG assets, why wasn’t it done for the series remastering?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDgW...ature=youtu.be

From what I understand some of the original working files have been saved and brought forward but evidently these files are not all inclusive or complete of the entirety of the series.

A response from the fellow Tom Smith of that channel.

"Tom Smith
1 week ago
A fair chunk of the second and third seasons scene files, plus a few models (only) from the fourth and fifth seasons. It is possible to recreate the models (the Drazi Sunhawk in this clip which carries the fighter on it's back and one of the ranger ships were missing so those were remade. Creating new scene files is easy enough, trying to match the model and camera movements of the originals is the tricky bit. But when putting the season 3 opening credits together The re-built scene at the start with the two fighters is pretty close to the original. There's gaps basically - big ones - but could be filled, but it would be a lot of work with variable results most likely."

Plenty of work would remain to recreate everything for new rendering and recompositing with live action elements.

[cdittmer]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

To my knowledge HBO Max never streams in SD. SD-only shows like e.g. the Fresh Prince of Bel Air are streamed upscaled to HD.

Was what you played at lunch time the pilot episode "The Gathering" by any chance? That episode has not been remastered and looks as crappy as ever.

The 4:3 version from the Babylon 5 DVD movies collection is the best version of "The Gathering" in my opinion.

[PT Ryan]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I have sent an email to HBO Max through their contact form. Probably can't hurt if more people do that. I also know of several people who have contacted Warner earlier when the remasters came out on iTunes.

I’m currently in touch with iTunes about it as well. You have to be persistent with their feedback process, but they have escalated it, and I just sent them some video shot off my TV comparing the iTunes version of Babylon Squared to the NTSC DVD version of the same episode.

[PT Ryan]

Originally Posted by cdittmer

The 4:3 version from the Babylon 5 DVD movies collection is the best version of "The Gathering" in my opinion.

What’s been said about The Gathering to date doesn’t make sense, though. JMS was able to locate usable takes of all the deleted stuff for the TNT special edition in 1997. Unless not enough of the filmed material has survived - possible, given what JMS said about water and rodent damage to the negatives - this isn’t clear enough for my liking.

At any rate, that 16:9 SD version of The Gathering is godawful, and only just recently replaced the 4:3 SD version of the same episode. There’s no reason to do it when the rest of the series has only just been remastered back to the original 4:3 itself.

If they replaced the 16:9 crop with the previous version, I’d honestly be happy with that in lieu of a remaster.

[isolar801]

The "Intro" from G'Kar on 401 can be easily skipped....I was going to splice it in from the "other" higher quality B5 source I have (a Usenet re encode, quite elaborate) but decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
The end of Babylon Squared though needs to be there.

[kemcha]

I just caught wind of this as someone had posted an overview of the remastered Babylon 5 series:

https://www.engadget.com/babylon-5-r...080058907.html

Thrilled that, at the very least, a type of remastered version of the series now exists but that the writer doesn't think it will be released on Blu-ray anytime soon.

[LexInHD]

Based on what's out there, the CGI asset situation is something like this....

1. WB apparently lost all the assets turned over to them by Foundation and Netter Digital didn't retain their own copies. JMS and others have said this for years. All of Foundation's assets were lost when the business shuttered and the servers were auctioned off, without warning. Not much is known about Netter Digital, but they suffered a similar fate after making too many bad business moves to get bigger.

2. The artists themselves had backups of their work. There are (completely unsubstantiated) claims that WB made Foundation sign an agreement that no backups would be made and the artists hid the files for years, fearing that WB would take them to court. These claims might have come from Ron Thornton, who founded and ran Foundation for the work on B5. According to the producers, he was attempting to extort WB and Netter Productions for a fat payout and withholding the 3rd season VFX work for ransom, so ties were cut, resulting in the creation of Netter Digital for the 4th season and the B5 movies, in addition to Crusade. Netter Digital was said to have pilfered the Foundation Imaging production servers - for the CGI assets - and poached some animators after season 3 production ended, to ensure a smooth transition for the remainder of the B5 productions.

3. Atmosphere/ZOIC VFX recreated many/all CGI assets and also obtained the original model files (How and from whom is a complete mystery that has not been spoken of, but they said they got them) that were updated by their artists, for use with The Lost Tales and a potential B5 remastering. WB killed TLT and all future B5 projects during the production of TLT, so the scope of what was done/being done will never be seen unless they decide to go through with a proper B5 remastering, which all the surviving production artists are willing to help with, if needed.

[Chareth]

Looks like it must be a reassembly of the original negatives for the purposes of this remaster: there are reports of an SD Londo scene, plus this comparison of the DVDs and the new iTunes version shows that the rounded S3 credit font has been replaced with the sharper one from later seasons (nice that they recreated the latter perfectly, unlike in The X-Files with a far more iconic font):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7aM...ature=youtu.be

So it’ll be interesting if any other changes from the original version emerge as people get deeper into their rewatches.

EDIT: just realised the credits would have had to be newly applied to conformed negative footage as well, so that’s not an indicator of the show being fully reedited, unlike the SD shots.

[KMFDMvsEnya]

In the first proper episode there is a short shot of Londo which comes from an SD source. It is about at the halfway mark if I recall correctly.

Similar to say TNG that had a few shots that could only be sourced from an SD master.
There are likely plenty more straight live action shots that had to be pulled from SD sources but cest la vie.

I believe all the comparison videos that came out before the past week or two all were SD resolution of the new HD remasters that got unintentionally released early on iTunes & Amazon.

I have only watched most of episode one and overall I am quite impressed by the live action material. Frankly, it is a revelation to finally see the improved detail but also the superior color grading and better contrast. Even the upscaled full CGI VFX shots look quite good all things considered, even though colors and contrast leave a bit to be desired.

[Cap.T]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

I have only watched most of episode one and overall I am quite impressed by the live action material. Frankly, it is a revelation to finally see the improved detail but also the superior color grading and better contrast. Even the upscaled full CGI VFX shots look quite good all things considered, even though colors and contrast leave a bit to be desired.

After watching a few episodes on HBO Max, I definitely agree with that assessment. I have to say though I do find the scence that mix live action with CGI take me out of the experience a little bit. Everytime a scene like that is on you can really see the drop of quality. I know a complete TNG-style recomposite wasn't in the cards, but still... Anyway it's a small thing and compared to the nearly unwatchable DVDs (for me), this finally let's me enjoy the show again.

[slaizer2000]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

To my knowledge HBO Max never streams in SD. SD-only shows like e.g. the Fresh Prince of Bel Air are streamed upscaled to HD.

Was what you played at lunch time the pilot episode "The Gathering" by any chance? That episode has not been remastered and looks as crappy as ever.

No. I always do tests with 3 or 4th season as the older the title the lower quality in general. It was most likely sd upscaled to hd. As it looked very similar to my dvds. Which also get upscaled via the 4k player, receiver (which i turned upscale off) or tv. I also did the same test. Season 3 episode 15 at lunch and dinner. I stated it was sd because it looked liked the dvd.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by Chareth

Looks like it must be a reassembly of the original negatives for the purposes of this remaster: there are reports of an SD Londo scene, plus this comparison of the DVDs and the new iTunes version shows that the rounded S3 credit font has been replaced with the sharper one from later seasons (nice that they recreated the latter perfectly, unlike in The X-Files with a far more iconic font):

Something at the back of my mind tells me the squarer one is correct at least as per original US versions. I’m sure the rounded font appeared on the PAL versions and was erroneously carried over to the 16:9 remasters.

[PT Ryan]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

Something at the back of my mind tells me the squarer one is correct at least as per original US versions. I’m sure the rounded font appeared on the PAL versions and was erroneously carried over to the 16:9 remasters.

IIRC the rounder font wasn’t on the PAL broadcast versions of season 3 either.

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by PT Ryan

IIRC the rounder font wasn’t on the PAL broadcast versions of season 3 either.

I honestly can’t recall fonts from 25 years ago with massive accuracy, but I’m sure it was on the PAL season 2.

[Chareth]

Originally Posted by PT Ryan

IIRC the rounder font wasn’t on the PAL broadcast versions of season 3 either.

(Edited) I watched my taped copies of the 4:3 Australian (PAL) broadcasts incessantly in the 90s, especially season 3, and I could swear the rounder font didn't kick in until S4. But rewatching that video, I think you're right: the discrepancy is entirely down to the 90s reformatting of the intro for the PAL 16:9 versions.

Presumably for the HD transfer they've just had to upscale the existing 4:3 NTSC footage of the intros, which explains the return of the sharper font following the DVD release.

[isolar801]

I just did I real time comparaison to my previous best-case source (the massive re encode project) and can definitely say....these are as good as it can get.
Gone is the ghosting, blurring and over saturation of the dvd's. Its night and day on the live action and the cgi looks as good as it can, far better than we've ever seen....I'm happy with them.

[PoshFrosh]

I'm still hoping for a blu-ray release (as I'm sure many others here are). I think the work they've done can look even better with a higher bitrate than what we're seeing on streaming.
I've seen it stated that it being on HBO Max makes that less likely anytime soon, but I still think it's possible. Harley Quinn and Doom Patrol recently got Blu-Ray releases, so a physical B5 release still seems very likely to me, before too long. Plus, they could make some money by doing it.
Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I have my fingers crossed, because it's long past due to upgrade my DVD set. I guess only time will tell.

[Geoff D]

Get it out on Warner Archive, season by season in separate 4:3 and 16:9 versions. Everyone can pick which one they want.

[kemcha]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Get it out on Warner Archive, season by season in separate 4:3 and 16:9 versions. Everyone can pick which one they want.

better yet, include both versions on the boxed set, like they did with the original Battlestar Galactica on Blu-ray.